Help me find my weakest link!

dbaldus
dbaldus Posts: 730
edited October 2009 in 2 Channel Audio
I've recently moved into 2 channel listening and have been very happy thus far. However, I'm currently trying to identify what I should upgrade next and have basically narrowed it down to three options:

1. Get a dedicated pre-amp
2. Get a better CD player
3. Get an external DAC

I'm curious what everyone thinks is the "weakest link" in my system:

Polk SDA 2Bs
Harman Kardon AVR-247 (pre, running in analog bypass mode)
Parasound HCA-2200II
Denon DVD-2200 (player, doing the decoding and outputting via analog)
Signal Cable Analog II Interconnects throughout

I'm also wondering how much of a difference buying a dedicated pre-amp versus running in analog bypass mode on the HK will make? Any insight or suggestions here would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

2-channel
Squeezebox Touch| MSB Analog DAC | Audio Research Ref 40 Anniversary Edition| Pass Labs X350.8 | Wilson Audio Sasha 2

Home Theater
Arcam AVR 550 | GoldenEar Triton One | GoldenEar SuperCenter XXL | GoldenEar Aon 3 | JL Audio Fathom F113v2
Post edited by dbaldus on
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Comments

  • thuffman03
    thuffman03 Posts: 1,325
    edited October 2009
    I would say your Denon DVD 2200. I have one and don't like it as a cd player. I found my Carver TL 3300 does a much better job and was made 15+ years before the Denon.
    Sunfire TGP, Sunfire Cinema Grand, Sunfire 300~2 (2), Sunfire True Sub (2),Carver ALS Platinum, Carver AL III, TFM-55, C-19, C-9, TX-8, SDA-490t, SDA-390t
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  • kawizx9r
    kawizx9r Posts: 5,150
    edited October 2009
    I would say go with a dedicated pre. If you get a good source, the quality it can exhibit might be limited because of your AVR as a preamp. At least this is what I got when I posted a thread asking the same exact question. And I would believe the AVR I run would be a much better candidate as a pre than the one you have in terms of being musical.
    Truck setup
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  • NJPOLKER
    NJPOLKER Posts: 3,474
    edited October 2009
    Since you have no stated spending limits I thought I'd give you a couple options

    A nice player
    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1260642868&/Modwright-signature-truth
    A nice Pre-Amp
    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1260626371&/Audio-Research-ls-26-ls26-ls-26

    Things kind of start with the source (cdp) so thats where I'd start and move up the chain.
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  • dbaldus
    dbaldus Posts: 730
    edited October 2009
    kawizx9r wrote: »
    I would say go with a dedicated pre. If you get a good source, the quality it can exhibit might be limited because of your AVR as a preamp. At least this is what I got when I posted a thread asking the same exact question. And I would believe the AVR I run would be a much better candidate as a pre than the one you have in terms of being musical.

    Have you swapped your receiver out for a pre yet? Just curious as to what you found.

    2-channel
    Squeezebox Touch| MSB Analog DAC | Audio Research Ref 40 Anniversary Edition| Pass Labs X350.8 | Wilson Audio Sasha 2

    Home Theater
    Arcam AVR 550 | GoldenEar Triton One | GoldenEar SuperCenter XXL | GoldenEar Aon 3 | JL Audio Fathom F113v2
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  • thuffman03
    thuffman03 Posts: 1,325
    edited October 2009
    NJPOLKER wrote: »
    Since you have no stated spending limits I thought I'd give you a couple options

    A nice player
    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1260642868&/Modwright-signature-truth
    A nice Pre-Amp
    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1260626371&/Audio-Research-ls-26-ls26-ls-26

    Things kind of start with the source (cdp) so thats where I'd start and move up the chain.

    Nice suggestions.

    If you don't have that much $$$ and still want a very good cd player how about:

    Jolida JD-100A
    http://vintagehifipgh.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17&products_id=71

    Carver SD/A 490t (I have one of these...Great cd player)
    http://vintagehifipgh.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17&products_id=160
    Sunfire TGP, Sunfire Cinema Grand, Sunfire 300~2 (2), Sunfire True Sub (2),Carver ALS Platinum, Carver AL III, TFM-55, C-19, C-9, TX-8, SDA-490t, SDA-390t
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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited October 2009
    1. get a pre amp
    2. get another CD player

    both will make a nice improvement

    *even though not on your radar right now.. better quality interconnects are something you may want to look into down the road. :)
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
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  • Lowell_M
    Lowell_M Posts: 1,660
    edited October 2009
    1. Get a CDP or external DAC
    2. Get a Pre amp.

    It is a tough call either way. I've had good luck with my H/K's as pre-amps, but a dedicated Pre-amp opens up worlds of difference, but I still think that a dedicated CDP or an external DAC (either would have similar effect) would get you a bigger initial improvement than a pre-amp.
    HT
    RTi70 mains
    CSi30 center
    RTi28 Rears
    Velodyne CHT-12
    H/K AVR-247
    ADCOM GFA-7000
    Samsung PN58B860
    Playstation 3
    2-Channel
    Polk Audio LSi15's
    Rotel RCD-1072
    Nakamichi CA-5 Pre
    ADCOM GFA-555
    Signal Cable Analog II IC's
    Signal Ultra Bi-Wire Speaker Cables
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  • dbaldus
    dbaldus Posts: 730
    edited October 2009
    danger boy wrote: »
    1. get a pre amp
    2. get another CD player

    both will make a nice improvement

    *even though not on your radar right now.. better quality interconnects are something you may want to look into down the road. :)

    So are you of the opinion that a pre will be significantly better than using Analog bypass mode on my 247? Could you elaborate a little on how you think it will be better as I am really curious about this...

    Thanks again!

    2-channel
    Squeezebox Touch| MSB Analog DAC | Audio Research Ref 40 Anniversary Edition| Pass Labs X350.8 | Wilson Audio Sasha 2

    Home Theater
    Arcam AVR 550 | GoldenEar Triton One | GoldenEar SuperCenter XXL | GoldenEar Aon 3 | JL Audio Fathom F113v2
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  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited October 2009
    Have you upgraded the 2B's yet? If yes then a good DAC or Pre. A tube Pre can really liven things up.
    Ben
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
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  • Lowell_M
    Lowell_M Posts: 1,660
    edited October 2009
    dbaldus wrote: »
    So are you of the opinion that a pre will be significantly better than using Analog bypass mode on my 247? Could you elaborate a little on how you think it will be better as I am really curious about this...

    Thanks again!

    Either move will make a nice improvement. Its hard to tell which will make the most noticeable. I dont' think you would be unhappy with either as a first move. I haven't always had 2 systems and used to use my H/K AVR-635 as a pre and was pretty happy with results, but then bought the Nak CA-5 preamp for 2-channel and wouldn't put together another 2-channel system without a decent pre-amp. Depending on what DAC or CDP you choose, though, you can make a similar impact on your system. I say you do both pre-amp, and CDP/or DAC.
    HT
    RTi70 mains
    CSi30 center
    RTi28 Rears
    Velodyne CHT-12
    H/K AVR-247
    ADCOM GFA-7000
    Samsung PN58B860
    Playstation 3
    2-Channel
    Polk Audio LSi15's
    Rotel RCD-1072
    Nakamichi CA-5 Pre
    ADCOM GFA-555
    Signal Cable Analog II IC's
    Signal Ultra Bi-Wire Speaker Cables
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  • lakesailor
    lakesailor Posts: 319
    edited October 2009
    I vote for the pre-amplifier first. You would be surprised at what a difference the pre-amp. can make to your system. After that I would vote for a dac.
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  • NJPOLKER
    NJPOLKER Posts: 3,474
    edited October 2009
    thuffman03 wrote: »
    Nice suggestions.

    If you don't have that much $$$ and still want a very good cd player how about:

    Jolida JD-100A
    http://vintagehifipgh.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17&products_id=71

    Carver SD/A 490t (I have one of these...Great cd player)
    http://vintagehifipgh.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17&products_id=160


    I was just **** with him a little because he didn't layout for us how much he can spend :D:D
    The Jolida 100 is a great way to go.
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  • beardog03
    beardog03 Posts: 5,550
    edited October 2009
    Jolida JD-100A
    this is a decent player.....I have been using one for a long while now, and it works well....sounds great

    I will one day move up, but for now it serves me well
    Cary SLP-98L F1 DC Pre Amp (Jag Blue)
    Parasound HCA-3500
    Cary Audio V12 amp (Jag Red)
    Polk Audio Xm Reciever (Autographed by THE MAN Himself) :cool:
    Magnum Dynalab MD-102 Analog Tuna
    Jolida JD-100 CDP
    Polk Audio LSi9 Speaks (ebony)
    SVS PC-Ultra Sub
    AQ Bedrock Speaker Cables (Bi-Wired)
    MIT Shotgun S1 I/C`s
    AQ Black Thunder Sub Cables
    PS Audio Plus Power Cords
    Magnum Dynalab ST-2 FM Antenna
    Sanus Cherry wood Speak Stands
    Adona AV45CS3 / 3 Tier Rack (Black /Gold)

    :cool:
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  • NJPOLKER
    NJPOLKER Posts: 3,474
    edited October 2009
    beardog03 wrote: »
    Jolida JD-100A
    this is a decent player.....I have been using one for a long while now, and it works well....sounds great

    I will one day move up, but for now it serves me well

    Not to hi-jack this thread but, beardog, what would you get to replace the Jolida?
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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited October 2009
    dbaldus wrote: »
    So are you of the opinion that a pre will be significantly better than using Analog bypass mode on my 247? Could you elaborate a little on how you think it will be better as I am really curious about this...

    Thanks again!

    a pre amp moves you into separates.. and I think you will find that most music guru's will agree. separates is the way to go for the best possible sound quality.

    Will it be significantly better? depends on what you are hearing right now. If you are happy with it. there is no reason to go into separates. but if you are curious about upping the ante.. then maybe a pre amp is in your future.

    see if you can buy a pre amp with a 30 day in home trial.. if you like, keep it. if you don't, return it.. (you will prob be out the shipping costs, but that's most likely all if you return it).

    Separates in my case were an improvement for me a few years ago coming from an AVR with an external amp. it was for me at least a significant improvement in sound quality.

    I went from a Marantz AVR with a Adcom amp to a Outlaw Audio pre amp and external amps for my home theater. for music only rig, i try and always stick with separates. ;)
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
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  • Jetmaker737
    Jetmaker737 Posts: 1,047
    edited October 2009
    This little article covers the subject pretty well:

    http://www.hawthornestereo.com/advice/hierarchy.html

    For you SDA guys in the Seattle areas you might want to check out their "Used Room" link.
    SystemLuxman L-590AXII Integrated Amplifier|KEF Reference 1 Loudspeakers|PS Audio Directream Jr|Sansui TU-9900 Tuner|TEAC A-6100 RtR|Nakamichi RX-202 Cassette
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  • beardog03
    beardog03 Posts: 5,550
    edited October 2009
    NJPOLKER wrote: »
    Not to hi-jack this thread but, beardog, what would you get to replace the Jolida?

    I`m going to get a Cary 306 pro ....... someday
    Cary SLP-98L F1 DC Pre Amp (Jag Blue)
    Parasound HCA-3500
    Cary Audio V12 amp (Jag Red)
    Polk Audio Xm Reciever (Autographed by THE MAN Himself) :cool:
    Magnum Dynalab MD-102 Analog Tuna
    Jolida JD-100 CDP
    Polk Audio LSi9 Speaks (ebony)
    SVS PC-Ultra Sub
    AQ Bedrock Speaker Cables (Bi-Wired)
    MIT Shotgun S1 I/C`s
    AQ Black Thunder Sub Cables
    PS Audio Plus Power Cords
    Magnum Dynalab ST-2 FM Antenna
    Sanus Cherry wood Speak Stands
    Adona AV45CS3 / 3 Tier Rack (Black /Gold)

    :cool:
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  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited October 2009
    Have you upgraded the XO in your 2Bs ? It made a huge improvement in my 1Cs.

    Rotel 1072 has a nice DAC and is great CDP for less than $400.
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,068
    edited October 2009
    I am quite happy using my NAD T765 AVR for HT & as the pre for 2 channel listening. I have owned separate pre's...a Conrad Johnson PV14L2 tube pre & a Krell KAV 250P pre. Neither one was audibly superior to the NAD AVR, so they were both sold & the NAD is running the show now. The only way to find out is to pick up a separate pre & give it a listen. Then you can decide what suits your listening tastes.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • TNRabbit
    TNRabbit Posts: 2,168
    edited October 2009
    Your ROOM is your weakest link. Make sure everything is set up properly & not just convenient for the room.
    TNRabbit
    NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
    Sunfire TG-IV
    Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
    Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
    Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
    Carver AL-III Speakers
    Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer
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  • dbaldus
    dbaldus Posts: 730
    edited October 2009
    Interesting... you almost have me biting on the Denon 3910 but I'm still feeling some reluctance to do it because then I know I will only be able to play CDs at high quality. At some point down the road, I'm hoping to get a Squeezebox so I was considering getting a DAC (maybe a Cambridge DACMagic or a Benchmark DAC1) so I could use that for decoding the sound from both my DVD player and Squeezebox.

    Any thoughts on a DACMagic or Benchmark DAC1 versus the 3910? Any thoughts in general on this idea?

    By the way, Lasareath - that is an AWESOME listening room!! :p

    2-channel
    Squeezebox Touch| MSB Analog DAC | Audio Research Ref 40 Anniversary Edition| Pass Labs X350.8 | Wilson Audio Sasha 2

    Home Theater
    Arcam AVR 550 | GoldenEar Triton One | GoldenEar SuperCenter XXL | GoldenEar Aon 3 | JL Audio Fathom F113v2
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  • dbaldus
    dbaldus Posts: 730
    edited October 2009
    I should probably mention that I'm curious about a comparison on sound quality between using my Denon DVD-2200 with a Cambridge DACMagic or a Benchmark DAC1 versus using a Denon 3910 alone... just in case that wasn't clear ;)

    2-channel
    Squeezebox Touch| MSB Analog DAC | Audio Research Ref 40 Anniversary Edition| Pass Labs X350.8 | Wilson Audio Sasha 2

    Home Theater
    Arcam AVR 550 | GoldenEar Triton One | GoldenEar SuperCenter XXL | GoldenEar Aon 3 | JL Audio Fathom F113v2
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  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited October 2009
    The Benchmark is in a class much higher than the Cambridge and the CDPs.
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • TNRabbit
    TNRabbit Posts: 2,168
    edited October 2009
    I have the Benchmark DAC-1 with three different CDPs (Sony, Oppo, Carver) and it's GREAT~
    TNRabbit
    NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
    Sunfire TG-IV
    Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
    Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
    Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
    Carver AL-III Speakers
    Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer
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  • dbaldus
    dbaldus Posts: 730
    edited October 2009
    TNRabbit wrote: »
    I have the Benchmark DAC-1 with three different CDPs (Sony, Oppo, Carver) and it's GREAT~

    Do you use a digital output from these three CDPs to the DAC1? Have you been able to tell any difference in sound quality when having different sources using the DAC1 for the decoding?

    I'm just curious because if I could stick with any old CD/DVD Player without it making much of a difference and use the DAC1 as a decoder and preamp then I would probably just go that route to avoid having to buy yet another source.

    2-channel
    Squeezebox Touch| MSB Analog DAC | Audio Research Ref 40 Anniversary Edition| Pass Labs X350.8 | Wilson Audio Sasha 2

    Home Theater
    Arcam AVR 550 | GoldenEar Triton One | GoldenEar SuperCenter XXL | GoldenEar Aon 3 | JL Audio Fathom F113v2
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  • TNRabbit
    TNRabbit Posts: 2,168
    edited October 2009
    dbaldus wrote: »
    Do you use a digital output from these three CDPs to the DAC1? Have you been able to tell any difference in sound quality when having different sources using the DAC1 for the decoding?

    I'm just curious because if I could stick with any old CD/DVD Player without it making much of a difference and use the DAC1 as a decoder and preamp then I would probably just go that route to avoid having to buy yet another source.

    I find it to have a much cleaner top end; cymbals have a much more clear sizzle, and the sibilance is cut down. I run TOSLINK or Composite Digital from the CDP to the DAC and then I/Cs to the Prepro.
    TNRabbit
    NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
    Sunfire TG-IV
    Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
    Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
    Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
    Carver AL-III Speakers
    Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer
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  • dbaldus
    dbaldus Posts: 730
    edited October 2009
    TNRabbit wrote: »
    I find it to have a much cleaner top end; cymbals have a much more clear sizzle, and the sibilance is cut down. I run TOSLINK or Composite Digital from the CDP to the DAC and then I/Cs to the Prepro.

    I think that you may have misunderstood my question...

    I meant do you notice any difference between the following setups:

    1. Sony CDP -> DAC1 via optical/coax (some sort of digital cable)
    2. Oppo DCP -> DAC1 via optical/coax (some sort of digital cable)
    3. Carver CDP -> DAC1 via optical/coax (some sort of digital cable)

    I'm just wondering if the CD player being used actually makes a difference when you are having the DAC1 do the decoding anyway.

    Thanks again!

    2-channel
    Squeezebox Touch| MSB Analog DAC | Audio Research Ref 40 Anniversary Edition| Pass Labs X350.8 | Wilson Audio Sasha 2

    Home Theater
    Arcam AVR 550 | GoldenEar Triton One | GoldenEar SuperCenter XXL | GoldenEar Aon 3 | JL Audio Fathom F113v2
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  • TNRabbit
    TNRabbit Posts: 2,168
    edited October 2009
    I can't tell the difference between them when run in the same configuration through the DAC-1...
    TNRabbit
    NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
    Sunfire TG-IV
    Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
    Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
    Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
    Carver AL-III Speakers
    Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer
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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited October 2009
    dbaldus wrote: »
    I think that you may have misunderstood my question...

    I meant do you notice any difference between the following setups:

    1. Sony CDP -> DAC1 via optical/coax (some sort of digital cable)
    2. Oppo DCP -> DAC1 via optical/coax (some sort of digital cable)
    3. Carver CDP -> DAC1 via optical/coax (some sort of digital cable)

    I'm just wondering if the CD player being used actually makes a difference when you are having the DAC1 do the decoding anyway.

    Thanks again!


    When using a DAC the CD player being used can have an affect on the sound quality of the music. I just found this out for myself.
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
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  • danz1906
    danz1906 Posts: 5,144
    edited October 2009
    dbaldus wrote: »
    I think that you may have misunderstood my question...

    I meant do you notice any difference between the following setups:

    1. Sony CDP -> DAC1 via optical/coax (some sort of digital cable)
    2. Oppo DCP -> DAC1 via optical/coax (some sort of digital cable)
    3. Carver CDP -> DAC1 via optical/coax (some sort of digital cable)

    I'm just wondering if the CD player being used actually makes a difference when you are having the DAC1 do the decoding anyway.

    Thanks again!

    Yes,when using your CD player with a Dac it become a transport.
    Different CD/Transports will sound different.
    Linn AV5140 fronts
    Linn AV5120 Center
    Linn AV5140 Rears
    M&K MX-70 Sub for Music
    Odyssey Mono-Blocs
    SVS Ultra-13 Gloss Black:D
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