CD vs SACD vs DVD-A
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Here's a link to an interesting article I'm sure some here would enjoy reading.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70893.0
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70893.0
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Post edited by Unknown User on
Comments
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Interesting.So if the same care was taken with regular CD's - instead off this severely restricted dynamic range crap we get today to satisfy pop radio and ipods - regular redbook CD's would sound every bit as good as specialty type formats like SACD and DVD-A
I can't wait to hear Jesse's opinion on this.
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
While I agree that the full potential of redbook is not always utilized atleast in mainstream releases,I'm not in agreement with the articles assertion of it being the equal of the hi rez formats.I have Fagan's Morph the Cat on both CD and DVD-A(came packaged together).This should be a fair comparison of the two formats,as one would think the same hi rez master was used but with the redbook being down sampled to 16/44.1k.My listening comparison's (using the exact same player and system)show them to both sound very good but to my aging ears the DVD-A sounds better.Testing
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So if the same care was taken with regular CD's - instead off this severely restricted dynamic range crap we get today to satisfy pop radio and ipods - regular redbook CD's would sound every bit as good as specialty type formats like SACD and DVD-A
Whomever wrote that is deaf.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I agree.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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I'll second that.
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Just the technical capabilities of the SACD format would seem to make it a clear winner over standard redbook CD. But what do I know, I still think vinyl sounds good.DKG999
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When I can and if I can, I always listen to hi-rez over redbook. But I have a few redbook CDs that can compare to their hi-rez counterparts. All depends on how good it was recorded in the first place. But normally, SACD or DVD-A is the way to go.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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-Kevin
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GV, I first became aware of this study about two years ago when it was published in my AES Journal. There are many excellent SACDs and DVD-As, some of which I've suggested here for their superior performances combined with superior sound quality . It was long suggested by some experts in sound technology that the superior sound was due to superior care in the recording, mixing and mastering process, rather than the higher sampling and/or bit rates in the SACD and DVD-A formats. The study didn't compare SACDs and DVD-As with CDs, but rather took SACDs and DVD-As of recognized excellent sound quality and subjected the output to a 16/44.1 ADC-DAC processing, "downgrading" them to the Redbook CD standard. A group of experienced listeners in a properly controlled double-blind test found no audible difference in the excellent sound quality resulted from this.
This convincingly(to those approaching the topic with both open minds and open ears)established that the 16/44.1 CD format was adequate for full realization of audio quality when done with proper care throughout the process. This is, of course, not done with many CDs, and is more often, although not always, done with SACDs. It should be noted that even the CD tracks on SACDs are often not mixed/mastered identically with the SACD track on the same disc, and for that reason don't sound as good as they could.
So, we should enjoy the superior sound available to us on many SACDs(primarily classical), but we shouldn't harbor mythologies as to why they're better. -
to those approaching the topic with both open minds and open ears
Something you simply can't do.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
GV, I first became aware of this study about two years ago when it was published in my AES Journal.
The study didn't compare SACDs and DVD-As with CDs, but rather took SACDs and DVD-As of recognized excellent sound quality and subjected the output to a 16/44.1 ADC-DAC processing, "downgrading" them to the Redbook CD standard. A group of experienced listeners in a properly controlled double-blind test found no audible difference in the excellent sound quality resulted from this.
I get that, and agree that 44.1/16 can sound damn good when care is taken throughout the entire recording/mix/mastering process. Perhaps it is just so rare that it happens that has me jaded.
But the fact remains, the high resolution formats consistently provide a more pleasing experience. It is an interesting test, and I don't doubt that, with the way it was conducted, I would be unable to tell a difference. But I bet I could tell the difference between a CD and an SACD (that I am familiar with) on my, or any comparable system. I own one particular disc in all three formats (NIN- TDS) and have no trouble telling the difference between the CD and the DVD-A or SACD. Honestly, I prefer the SACD. This is just my opinion, and a double-blind would be fun to try. But I'm fairly confident.:)-Kevin
HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
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Of course they didn't hear a difference. They were probably using lamp cord for cables, a Radio Shack amp, and a $39 CD player since they are likely the same crowd that believes none of that matters.
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Of course they didn't hear a difference. They were probably using lamp cord for cables, a Radio Shack amp, and a $39 CD player since they are likely the same crowd that believes none of that matters.
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Of course they didn't hear a difference. They were probably using lamp cord for cables, a Radio Shack amp, and a $39 CD player since they are likely the same crowd that believes none of that matters.
:eek::D ROTFLMAO!!! Good one!:DMarantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2 -
Apparently you didn't read the part describing the equipment actually used.;)On the otherhand thay are AES folk who tend to be more on the objectivist side of the fence.Of course they didn't hear a difference. They were probably using lamp cord for cables, a Radio Shack amp, and a $39 CD player since they are likely the same crowd that believes none of that matters.Testing
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Of course they didn't hear a difference. They were probably using lamp cord for cables, a Radio Shack amp, and a $39 CD player since they are likely the same crowd that believes none of that matters.
Bingo! we have a winner:D:D:D
Speakers
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CS400i Center
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Pioneer 79Avi DVD
Sony CX400 CD changer
Panasonic 42-PX60U Plasma
WMC Win7 32bit HD DVR -
Of course they didn't hear a difference. They were probably using lamp cord for cables, a Radio Shack amp, and a $39 CD player since they are likely the same crowd that believes none of that matters.
ding ding ding read on....................
Most of the tests were done using a pair of highly regarded, smooth-measuring full-range loudspeakers in a rural listening room with an ambient noise floor of about 19 dBA SPL, all electronics on (see Fig. 2). We also took the test setup to several other locations: a Boston-area mastering facility with very large four-way studio monitors; a local university audio facility, again with large high powered monitors in a custom designed listening space (the subjects for this test were students in the recording program); and a private high-end listening room equipped with well-reviewed electrostatic loudspeakers and very expensive electronics and cables. In all venues we performed informal tests of the subjects? upper hearing limits to see whether there was a correlation between this parameter and the audibility of differences.
Think what they used was a bit better than rat shack and lamp cords.......... -
ding ding ding read on....................
Most of the tests were done using a pair of highly regarded, smooth-measuring full-range loudspeakers in a rural listening room with an ambient noise floor of about 19 dBA SPL, all electronics on (see Fig. 2). We also took the test setup to several other locations: a Boston-area mastering facility with very large four-way studio monitors; a local university audio facility, again with large high powered monitors in a custom designed listening space (the subjects for this test were students in the recording program); and a private high-end listening room equipped with well-reviewed electrostatic loudspeakers and very expensive electronics and cables. In all venues we performed informal tests of the subjects? upper hearing limits to see whether there was a correlation between this parameter and the audibility of differences.
Think what they used was a bit better than rat shack and lamp cords..........
I read all that stuff. I concede that, under the given circumstances of the test, the results are accurate and predictable really.
I wonder if the results would be the same if you had various source formats and played them back at a re-sampled higher bitrate?(rather than lower) eg: a 44.1/16 source resampled at 96/24 vs a native 96/24 source of the same material.
I would bet the difference in format would reveal itself a bit more clearly.-Kevin
HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
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B&W 801's
Transparent IC's -
Further proof that blind tests are absolutely worthless.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Anybody who says that redbook and DVD-A can be that of the SACD in terms of dynamics and overall sound needs to go see a hearing doctor. Either that or they just need to actually listen to what they are hearing. Yes, they can come close. To say that they are the same is just....well, pure hogwash.
After the quote on post #2, I didn't even bother to read the link. Counting the pieces of dust on my A/C filter would actually be more productive.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Well, I can't speak to comparisons of SACD, but I do know that Redbook can sound extremely good---and agree with their assertions that it's more about the technique than it is the format. Ever notice how good HDCD recordings sound, even if you don't have HDCD decoding? There's been extra effort put into that recording. I have never had a CDP or DAC that decoded HDCD, but they certainly sound good universally.
If every CD was mastered as well as the really good ones, SACD/DVD-A would have never existed in the first place, IMO.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
While it's true that a well mastered CD sounds good, there's something more organic about SACD.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
While it's true that a well mastered CD sounds good, there's something more organic about SACD.
Key word----OrganicJC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut) -
....that sounds so damned sweet.......~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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Good morning George. Yes, the tubes definitely help.
TUBES RULE!!!~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
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John are you an AES member?GV, I first became aware of this study about two years ago when it was published in my AES Journal.
Thats an important point.I'm curious if the CD version of the Fagan album I mentioned previous is just downsampled version of the hi rez master?I suspect it is therefore my CD vs DVD-A should be a good barometer of the differences between the two formats.The study didn't compare SACDs and DVD-As with CDs, but rather took SACDs and DVD-As of recognized excellent sound quality and subjected the output to a 16/44.1 ADC-DAC processing, "downgrading" them to the Redbook CD standard.
I'm not 100% convinced with the accuracy of the double blind process but I know the NCR (and IIRC Harman) have found it usefull for loudspeaker comparison.That a group of experienced listeners in a properly controlled double-blind test found no audible difference in the excellent sound quality resulted from this.
Huh,I don't see what he said that deserved that jabSomething you simply can't do.
Yeah can't say as Ive seen any ESL speakers at my local RS of late.Think what they used was a bit better than rat shack and lamp cords..........
The maximum dynamic range capability of DVD-A is equal to SACD,both about 10db better than redbook.Anybody who says that redbook and DVD-A can be that of the SACD in terms of dynamics and overall sound ..Testing
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Anybody who says that redbook and DVD-A can be that of the SACD in terms of dynamics and overall sound needs to go see a hearing doctor.
Tom,
Although I agree with this statement as far as redbook versus SACD goes, my experience with DVD-A is that it is the equal of and sometimes better than SACD in terms of dynamics and overall sound. Most of my DVD-A's are recorded in 24 bit 192 kHz giving them a resolution much much higher than redbook's 16/44.1. The resolution of DVD-A is much closer to that of SACD and in my ears equal. Therefore I conclude I "need" to see a hearing doctor.
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Huh,I don't see what he said that deserved that jab
He has a long and consistent history of relying on other people's opinions/articles, blind A/B tests and the use of specs to determine what something might sound like instead of using his own experiences. There's nothing open minded or open eared about him.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
