mm5251 component speaker series issue

AudiAudiohead

i have the newest 5.25" mm series component speakers and are my front speakers in my audi a4. Ill leave a picture of how they were installed and the amp i am using to power them.

I have been having this issue but it has been brought to my attention as more time went on since they have been installed. They are currently hooked up to a 4 channel elemental designs amplifier that is is providing plenty of power to them and decent power to my 10" sub woofer. Providing aroun90 watt each @ 3 ohms.

For some reason, they sound extremely high pitched caused by the tweeter. The mid is much lower then the tweeter but even if u stick your head down in between the speakers you hear the tweeter a lot. even with my treble way down on -8 and the mid @ 0, bass is also @ -8 since i have the sub and all.

The music sounds to high pitched and rock sounds ear piercing when the guitar comes in. I will provide a link for my amp but do the speakers maybe have to be rewired to send more power to mid and less to tweeter? Is it possible the installer set the crossover on the wrong setting? Advice would be great thanks guys!

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_22&products_id=46

arun1963

hi AA,

1. Is that the stock location for the tweets on your door panel? Normally the tweets are mounted in the sail panels. Mounted as they are, at the top of the door panel, the tweet would be firing directly at your ear. You can also look at mounting the tweet on the a pillars.

2. Is the xover also mounted behind the door panel? If so its not the best location for the xover, you could face issues of rusting etc.

3. The xover has a tweeter attenuation switch. I believe the settings on the MM series are -3 / 0. Set this to -3.

AudiAudiohead

arun1963 wrote: »

hi AA,

1. Is that the stock location for the tweets on your door panel? Normally the tweets are mounted in the sail panels. Mounted as they are, at the top of the door panel, the tweet would be firing directly at your ear. You can also look at mounting the tweet on the a pillars.

2. Is the xover also mounted behind the door panel? If so its not the best location for the xover, you could face issues of rusting etc.

3. The xover has a tweeter attenuation switch. I believe the settings on the MM series are -3 / 0. Set this to -3.

1. yes that is the stock tweeter location. I swapped out my stock 4" drivers and these needed to kinda be custom installed to fit and the dynamat is there to help create a nice seal for the mid range speaker. I really wouldnt wanna have to relocate the tweeters i feel thats the best spot for them they just need to be turned down. normal tweeters are just not nearly as loud.

2. yes crossover is mounted behind the door panel along with the speakers. I believe it is a fine location... there is a material that covers the whole door panel in between the door and panel, im sure its a nice seal i dont think anything can get in there including rain.

3. I told the installers to set it on the less bright sounding setting but who knows. I didnt see them do it, im not suprised if they accidentally set it on the brighter sounding db. But im gunna straitin it out today and take it back to the shop and see what they say.

and also, i was messin around with my amp and tried out to set the mm speakers on "full" filter setting instead of "hpf". I need to give it a shot today but really feel like it sounds better idk. Is it bad for the speakers to be set on that if the bass is all the way down on the speakers and i have them turned up loud and long as they dont distort? I have a subwoofer as well, dont need any bass out of speakers...

arun1963

1. yes that is the stock tweeter location........ i feel thats the best spot for them they just need to be turned down. normal tweeters are just not nearly as loud.

Fine lets leave them there for the time being.

2. yes crossover is mounted behind the door panel along with the speakers. I believe it is a fine location... there is a material that covers the whole door panel in between the door and panel, im sure its a nice seal i dont think anything can get in there including rain.

Here I disagree. At one point I had my momo xovers mounted in the door panel. Doors were sealed with second skin and dynamat extreme. A year down the line I wanted to go active and I opened the the door panel to remove the xover. I found that the screws (where you attach the speaker wires and the metal clamps that hold the wires down) were all rusted. Moreover there was mildew inside the xover assembly. While rain may not get into the door panel, air does. Out here, we have an avg humidity year round of over 75%. Just a thought, that you should mount the xovers either under your dash or back in the boot.

3. I told the installers to set it on the less bright sounding setting .... i was messin around with my amp and tried out to set the mm speakers on "full" filter setting instead of "hpf". I need to give it a shot today but really feel like it sounds better idk. Is it bad for the speakers to be set on that if the bass is all the way down on the speakers and i have them turned up loud and long as they dont distort? I have a subwoofer as well, dont need any bass out of speakers...

Ok, so first check and see if they set it at -3.

Its best to bypass the HPF function on your amp. Since u're using a sub, I assume you would set your sub/mid xover point from your hu and the passive xover would seperate the mids from the tweets. So just bypass(run full range) everything at the amp.


Another thing you can try, is to bi-amp your front components. This will allow you to control/set the mids and tweets individually. You can then tone down the tweets through the gains. If your hu allows you to set a 3way network, you can go active. Active lets you choose the xover points. The mm passive xover splits the signal at around 2.6-3 khz, which means you can 'hear' down to say 1khz from the tweet. This will make the tweet bright and aggressive. In active mode, I have my mids and tweets crossed at 5khz and the tweets are much cleaner. Overall there is a much better balance between the lows, mids and highs.

AudiAudiohead

thanks for the reply.

What if I put the crossovers in plastic or wrapped them up in a plastic bag real well or something... I just dont wanna have to pay the installers to relocate them.

Also, i would like to be able to stick with my one amp. I did try setting my front speakers on "full" instead of hpf and it seemed to sound better but maybe i was just fooling myself, also i was told that its dangerous to have the fronts set on full because lower frequencies will eventually hurt the speakers... Is that why i would set it on my deck?

Your saying i should run full range on my subwoofer as well? What would be the point of that and would it still sound as good as it does now? My deck is pretty basic so i think i would only be able to set 1 crossover. I can however adjust (treble, mid, bass, sw)

The first step i will do is fix my crossovers and make sure they are on -3 and then cover them up better or relocate them, ill get back to you on friday thanks again man for the help.

arun1963

Assuming that you have your comps connected to the amps front chanels, you can set the front ch's on the amp at "full". You wont hurt the mid driver. Your mid will play down to 60hz and as you go lower the frequencies will start rolling off, (each frequency will play at lower db's than the previous one till you cross the physical limit of the driver or your aural limits. whichever comes first.).

These frequencies (below 60hz) will in any case be played much louder by your sub. So you wont hear much from your mids below 60hz in anycase.

No, don't seal the xovers in plastic. The crossover has an inductor coil in it and when current flows through this coil, it generates heat. This heat needs to be dissipated. I wish I could say leave them there....but I can't. Maybe someone else can give an opinion on this.

Again, assuming that you have your sub bridged on your rears, if you have set your mid to sub crossover at the hu, yes you can run the rear amp ch's "full". If however you're not sure, select the LPF for rear ch's and set the xover point on the amp at around 50hz. Your amp most prob would give you a slope of 12db on LPF so the sub would roll off at like 80hz.

AudiAudiohead

ok well im taking my car in tomorrow to have it checked out, make sure my crossovers are set on the lower -3 setting and ill ask them what they can do about my crossovers, im sure u know what ur talking about so ill take ur advice...

also my amp is just channels A/B and then C/D they are the exact same. Im gunna go try it on the full setting for the front speakers but i feel my sub is fine on the lpf around 120 hz. Since it is a 10" slightly underpowered and in a small sealed box.

also, my amp does put a slope of 12 db on both lpf and hpf according to the specifications on the website. My subwoofer hits really nice and am pretty satisfied with it so i think ill just leave it where it is. When i put it near the 80 hz freq it seems to not pick up the frequencies i want... I think around 100-120 has worked well for me.

any other advice untill i hear back from the audio shop tomorrow?

thanks again man.

arun1963

A/B = Fronts and C/D = Rears.

I have my 12" momo sub, rated at 400rms being powered @ 200rms and my cut off for the sub ranges from 50 to 63hz, depending on what I'm listening to. The sub is cut off on a 36db slope, so I'm not hearing anything past depending on what I'm listening to. So the sub is audible prob upto 75-80hz. With our xover at 120 on a 12db slope your sob would be playing 250hz at an audible level. Thats the top end of midbass territory. Your mids are supposed to play this range.

I guess I'm saying try setting the sub/mid xover around 60hz from your hu and bypass fronts and rear ch's from the amp. Set this xover at the hu. Also at the hu turn the sw volume up a bit. Hear it this way. If you dont like it you can always go back to where you were.

Good luck with the trip to the shop.

p.s. If I were you, I would'nt advertise the fact that you run ED equipment. There's a bit of history between the two forums. BTW, a bit belated, but welcome to CP.

AudiAudiohead

ha thanks for the advice didnt know it would offend anyone.

arun1963

Any update from your trip to the shop?

AudiAudiohead

no man im going tomorrow i took it in and they were super busy and didnt schedule me a head of time was pretty pissed.

going back in tomorrow morning for sure and they are gunna recheck the crossovers make sure they are on -3 instead of 0 db. That alone should make all the difference. But if not then not sure what we will do from there.

so i shouldnt control the frequency range for my sub on the amp and on my deck instead? Maybe just turn it down to 80-100hz on the amp and my amp is @ 12db. Both lpf and hpf.

arun1963

AudiAudiohead wrote: »

Going back in tomorrow morning for sure and they are gunna recheck the crossovers make sure they are on -3 instead of 0 db. That alone should make all the difference. But if not then not sure what we will do from there.

so i shouldnt control the frequency range for my sub on the amp and on my deck instead? Maybe just turn it down to 80-100hz on the amp and my amp is @ 12db. Both lpf and hpf.

Yeah, the 0 to -3 would make a difference. But what if its already -3 or if you set it to -3 and discover that its still too bright? Then the best solution is to biamp the comps like I mentioned and set the gains for the tweets lower than the mids. That will fix it. This will mean a seperate mono amp for your sub.

The other option is to go active. Most passive crossovers split the signal between 2-3khz. With the tweet on a shallow slope 6-12db, you would hear down to like 1khz from the tweet. You would hear 1khz stronger from your mid but its presence on the tweet would be distinctly audible. Hence the range from say 1khz to 3.5khz would be much brighter. Since youre hearing it from both drivers.

With an active setup you could split the signal for mid/tweet higher eg 4khz. You can also put the drivers on steeper slopes. Upshot, you would hear maybe down to 2-2.5 from your tweet, and its less brighter. For an active setup, you will need the amp as above (you have to be biamped for going active) plus you'll need a better deck that allows you to set the active xover.

Yes set the sub/mid crossover to like 63-80hz from your deck. Select the max slope available for both. Then turn the sub volume on your deck up a bit. Listen to it like this.

If you run your sub too high, 80+hz, it will make your midbass (80hz to 200hz) muddy and you will lose clarity in this range. Once you set your xover point lower, you will feel a bit of loss in the heavy bass you currently hear. But you will suddenly find the midbass range much cleaner. There will be more detailing in the sound. Try it and lets see what you feel.

Good Luck.

AudiAudiohead

my crossover has always been on -3 and not 0. The audio guys said my crossovers are fine where they are. If they were gunna be effected, so would my speakers.

ok sorry some of that was a little confusing for me. I dont think i can set the lpf any lower then 80hz on my deck. And i dont even think i have a hpf on there which is weird, maybe because it is set up for a sub woofer now...

What would be the cheapest route that i can take? i dont wanna have to buy a new deck and dont wanna buy a another amp right now.

Would a resistor work? I called the technical support for polk and he said i could put a resistor on my tweeter positive cable it would control either the frequency or power going to them if im not mistaken. Would this work? If so which one would i use?

arun1963

yes a resistor on your near side tweet will work. It will cut down the 15khz-25khz range by about an avg of 2-3db's depending on the resistor's impedence. The 15-25khz range would affect frequencies lower down making them less bright.

You want to do this on your near side tweet, since its closer to your ears than the far side one and hence in anycase would play about 3db louder. A resistor of about 33-50 ohm impedence on the +ve wire of the tweet should do the trick. Your shop will know what to do.

I did'nt recommend this to start with, since this is like a bandaid solution. However it will work fine. I would rather solve the root cause but yes that will take a bit of investment. If you're dead set against the investment angle, then this is an acceptable solution.

If you are an audiohead and finicky about the sound quality, you will want all your equipment to be at the same level. Currently your hu is lagging. A $350-400 investment in a good hu that gives you time alignment, independent eq control over left / right channels with 3 preouts and a strong 4v+ signal, would bump the sound level up significantly in your setup.

MacLeod

Is that speaker mounted to the door trim panel??? If thats so then that is a big part of your problem. Even with the Dynamat on there, the vibrations coming thru that plastic trim panel everytime any low frequency is reproduced, are severely distorting and canceling out that speaker. It needs to be mounted to the metal door panel itself preferably with a layer of Dynamat under it.

Also, its doubtful its sealing properly to the door frame so back waves are leaking around and canceling out the front waves which is also killing your output. Im surprised youre hearing anything out of those mids at all.

If that mid is mounted to the door trim panel, I would stay away from that shop as well. Thats as ghetto as it gets right there.

arun1963

Yes both drivers are mounted on the door panel and not on the door frame. OP does'nt want to change install locations.

arun1963

That was really stupid on my part. I assumed that the drivers were placed on the panels to show locations. It just did'nt strike me that they are actually mounted there. I thought mounting drivers on door panels only happened here.

If they are mounted on the panels, you need to remount the drivers on the door. Then seal the door with dynamat. Like Mac said, unless you seal the door itself, the wave from the forward and backward movement of the mid cone will cancel out a lot of the lower end frequencies. THIS will also make your tweets brighter, since it would mess up the balance between the lows, mids and highs. Since you would have lesser lows the mids and highs would feel much brighter.....

appology to OP

AudiAudiohead

im sorry i am very confused. my speaker is mounted exactly where my stock speaker was mounted... What do u mean mounted on the door? It is the door panel, where are most speakers mounted? The speaker grill is cm's away from my speaker i dont know what u guys are talking about... Do you guys not know what the inside of an audi door panel looks like? You cant mount speakers on the door frame there is other **** going on in there like the regulator and motor and such. Thats why the speakers are mounted on the door panel...

AudiAudiohead

arun1963 wrote: »

yes a resistor on your near side tweet will work. It will cut down the 15khz-25khz range by about an avg of 2-3db's depending on the resistor's impedence. The 15-25khz range would affect frequencies lower down making them less bright.

You want to do this on your near side tweet, since its closer to your ears than the far side one and hence in anycase would play about 3db louder. A resistor of about 33-50 ohm impedence on the +ve wire of the tweet should do the trick. Your shop will know what to do.

I did'nt recommend this to start with, since this is like a bandaid solution. However it will work fine. I would rather solve the root cause but yes that will take a bit of investment. If you're dead set against the investment angle, then this is an acceptable solution.

If you are an audiohead and finicky about the sound quality, you will want all your equipment to be at the same level. Currently your hu is lagging. A $350-400 investment in a good hu that gives you time alignment, independent eq control over left / right channels with 3 preouts and a strong 4v+ signal, would bump the sound level up significantly in your setup.

why only on 1 tweeter? I want it to sound balanced. both seats sounding equal. and what makes my headunit lag? I shouldnt have to adjust it much on my deck for my speakers to sound good if u ask me.

AudiAudiohead

oh yeah, and the vapor cover is cut so the speaker fits perfectly through and can produce/move the air and then the whole door to give it pressure. Sorry if i said that horribly... I think u can figure out what i mean.

MacLeod

When a speaker plays it causes vibrations. If its mounted to something flimsy as in the plastic door trim panel, those vibrations travel around the panel and back to the speaker which distort and cancel out the waves its producing.

Also, when a speaker cone moves it produces a wave to the front and to the rear. If the rear of the speaker isnt sealed off from the front of the speaker, that back wave can come around and, yup you got it, cancel out some of the front wave.

Now since youve got a speaker mounted to a plastic trim panel instead of a nice, sturdy piece of metal, youve got distortion and cancellation. Add to that, the back of the speaker isnt sealed off properly from the front and youve got even more cancellation.

If youre not wanting to get another amp to properly bi-amp your speakers and youre not wanting to move the mid to a proper mounting location then youre pretty much stuck with what youve got - half **** sound quality.

AudiAudiohead

^^^^^^^^^^^^

how could i remount my mid speaker? does it just depend on how much room there is in the door? also, what would another amp do if i left my speakers in the location they are now?

My ultimate goal is to not hear the tweeter so much and get good quality sound out of my mid. I have already put a good amount of money into my system. But im never going to be happy untill it sounds the way it should.

arun1963

AudiAudiohead wrote: »

For some reason, they sound extremely high pitched caused by the tweeter. The mid is much lower then the tweeter but even if u stick your head down in between the speakers you hear the tweeter a lot. even with my treble way down on -8 and the mid @ 0, bass is also @ -8 since i have the sub and all.

This is from your first post. It tells me two things. First, even when you put your head down to the mid level, you hear the tweet more. Why? Because 80-200hz, your mid bass range is canceling out. To compound the issue, you have got the bass at your hu set to -8. Whatever little there may be left after cancelation, is now all gone. The bass setting on your deck will increase or lower the 50-200 range. This range is to be played by your 5.25" mids, not your 12" sub. For your sub you have a seperate control. For a start raise your bass setting. Chances are you will hear a difference.

All speakers are meant to be mounted on the door and not the panel.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85347

This guy does nice installs. Go to post 4. You will find a pic of how the mid driver should be mounted on the door and the next pic is that of the door sealed with dynamat. These are two things you need to do.

Can you post a pic of your with the panel removed? Chances are you will have an install location on the door right behind the grille on the panel. I dont think german engineers would make this mistake

Lets take this one thing at a time. BTW, I am still kicking myself for my stupidity in not spotting the obvious. We got way ahead of where we should have been. (Someone here points this out regularly. ).

Lets fix the install and then we will come back to all the other issues. Hold on to the resistor bit etc for now.

AudiAudiohead

okay thanks for the help for one. And 2, i dont think there is any room in the door... Thats the downfall to the older b5 a4 for the front stage. That is the location where the speakers are mounted... Unless something custom was made. Let me try and raise my bass up a little bit and see if it makes a difference. The only issue is that my rear speakers start getting to much bass and i need to put the split farther on the front speakers. Ill give it a shot.

arun1963

If your deck gives you fader control fade forward when you raise the bass. Hopefully by the time we're done here you wont need rears.

If your door does not have a mounting location, then the best bet is to buy kick panels and install the mm mids in the kicks. You can leave the tweets where they are.

AudiAudiohead

right now i have my setup set like this... untill i go and see if i can have some resitors put in on my tweeters to quite them down a little bit... Maybe bring out my mids by doing this. I will give this a shot. @ 28 out of 35 on the volume of the deck its "really loud"

Headunit settings. treble -8, mid 0, bass -6(possibly -5) Fader front 5 out of 15.
Amp settings. hpf 120 hz (gain close to half way) lpf 80 hz (gain half way)

arun1963

You did'nt mention if it's begining to sound better....... I'm assuming that it is, based on the fact that you tested it at 80% of max volume. You need to get the kicks for the mids. From the perspective of maintaining a stock look this is tough, but given your limitations if you want good sound you will have to make some sacrifices. Meanwhile:

Treble : -8 ok (for now)

Mid : set this at -2. This will cut down on the 1khz to 2,5khz range, thereby making your tweets seem less harsh. It will also cut down 350-1khz range. But lets try this for now.

Low : Turn it all the way up to 0. If your panels rattle, then turn it down to the point where they dont.

Fader: Fade forward to like 10 out of 15.

At the amp, Set Front ch hpf to 80 same as lpf for the rear chanels. You could look at dropping the gains a bit for your front chanels. See if this makes a further improvement. Tuning long distance is a bit awkward

AudiAudiohead

lol thanks man, i see where your coming from. ill give that a shot right now before i take it to the shop. I plan on getting the resitors put on the tweeters to turn them down a little bit. As long as the right resistors are used and its not turned down a whole lot. Should this benefit the situation right now and not cause any damage? im thinking once the tweeters have the resitors i can turn my treble up a bit and still have it sound not as bright sounding... Im just hoping that my mids put out enough for it to sound powerful...

AudiAudiohead

adjusted my amp to around 85 hz for hpf and lpf is right around 85 hz as well. My head unit is set to -8 treble, -2 mid and -6 bass. Fade front 6. Sounds a lot better now i think. I can turn it up to 29-30 and sounds real good. But still think the highs are just a little to pronounced...

arun1963

So, as ure fading forward and turning up the bass, the sound is improving . So go further forward on the fader to 10, and take bass upto -4.

Basically your sound balance is messed up. A mid bass hole due to install issues. There are two ways to cure this.

Turning down the tweets with resistors to match the much lower mid bass. So you have some balance by having less of everything. If you did this you would have to turn down your sub as well, else boomy sound issues. So its not really an ideal solution, more of a bandaid.

The other way is to mount the mids in kickpanels, turn the bass up to like -2 and tweet to like -4/-5. This would give you much more vibrant sound.

When you go get the resistors installed ask the shop to make you listen with kicks but no resistors and no kicks with resistors. Let your ears and eyes, (good sound vs stock look), evaluate both options.

Then you, take a call.

AudiAudiohead

alright. I tried the fader on front 10, but i could barley even hear the rear speakers if i stuck my head back there. So i think 8 should be enough. Also, i cant seem to get the bass any lower then 5 without it started to rattle on bassy songs at high volumes. possibly raising the hpf slightly would fix this? maybe up to around 90 hz, same with lpf?

What do kickpanels look like and how much do they cost to install? I drive stick so i need room down near my feet to shift and everything...

also, with resistors it would quite the tweets down, but would the mids sound as good or better when they are turned up to get the same sound volume?

If my mids arent installed in the prime location, i dont want to push the mid driver for maximum sound volume and clearity if its not in a secure location. Should i be worried about blowing my speakers? Only if i hear distortion right? thats what hurts speakers... so if anything, i should be worried about blowing my tweeters at this point? Because the tweeters are prob what distort first im thinking at high volumes.