Lsi9's

PolkFan1

Will a Harman Kardon HK3480 be able to drive the lsi9's and drive them very well?

Here are the specs...

http://www.harmankardon.com/specifications.aspx?Region=EUROPE&Country=IS&Language=ENG&cat=REC&ser=&prod=HK3480/230&sType=C

megasat16

PolkFan1 wrote: »

Will a Harman Kardon HK3480 be able to drive the lsi9's and drive them very well?

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Drive? May be! Very Well? NO! That Receiver output of 150WPC @ 4 ohms is less than ideal for the LSi9.

wutadumsn23

Agreed, it may be able to power them, but you will have to be careful with the volume knob. Best idea is to run those 9's with an external amp, then you will see what they can really do.

-Jeff

PolkFan1

but many budget amps prevent the possibility of bi wiring the lsi9s dont they?

Edbaco

Tried to open a new thread but....

My question is similar, How will the lsi9 will behave with my pioneer sc-27 if I use them as front speakers in a 5.1
Currently using klipsch quintet 3 and sub 12 and hate the way they sound with music. Anyone running similar setup???


Any pointers wil be helpfull.

Pioneer specs.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/AV-Receivers/EliteReceivers/ci.SC-27.Kuro?tab=B

kawizx9r

Edbaco wrote: »

Tried to open a new thread but....

My question is similar, How will the lsi9 will behave with my pioneer sc-27 if I use them as front speakers in a 5.1
Currently using klipsch quintet 3 and sub 12 and hate the way they sound with music. Anyone running similar setup???


Any pointers wil be helpfull.

Pioneer specs.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/AV-Receivers/EliteReceivers/ci.SC-27.Kuro?tab=B

Don't know the specs on those Klipsch Quintet 3's, but I'll just add that in case they're 8ohm that's a no-no. You don't want to run speakers on an amp section/avr if their impedence do not match, and honestly you don't want to run LSi's on just a receiver. Get an external amp, you'll be glad you did.

wutadumsn23

+1 Freddy.

Hawkeye

PolkFan1 wrote: »

but many budget amps prevent the possibility of bi wiring the lsi9s dont they?

No. 2 channel amps will have two sets of outputs. One for left and one for right. You attach your cables to the outputs. If you're using different wires, for example, silver on top and copper on the bottom, one cable can have spades the other bananas

If your thinking of the biwire/biamp capability of an AVR, it is not the same concept.

Gordon

steveinaz

The H/K will work, but I would keep it at moderate volume levels to avoid clipping. It's far from an ideal setup for sure. Build your equipment around your speakers, the Lsi9's will just get better and better as you upgrade into seperates later down the road (and more wattage) and unlock their full potential.

Cpyder

I'd go with a separate amp. I learned the hard way after pushing my LSi9s to hard with just a Marantz SR5003 Receiver. Receiver had to be repaired. Cost a little over $100. I don't think you can find a budget receiver to drive the 9s.

everpress

I've been running a pair of 11TL's with an older H/K AVR 55. The 11TL's have similar power ratings and my receiver only puts out 65watts/channel on 2-channel and 55watts/channel on 5.1.
The volume knob goes to 80 something and I cannot turn it past 62 or glass starts breaking and ears start bleeding. As far as clipping is concerned, I've experienced none.

After expressing many concerns and fears about not having enough power here on the forums, I've been told (and done much research to find) H/K is notorious for having clean power that doesn't surge to the speakers and create clipping (not under normal usage).

My speakers will, of course, find a better sound and safer sound at high volumes with an amp, but these speakers are rated at 20-200watts per channel. Like Steveinaz said, it's not ideal, but it's not the end of the world.

I'd hardly consider the aforementioned H/K to be a budget receiver anyway.

cfrizz

everpress wrote: »

I've been running a pair of 11TL's with an older H/K AVR 55. The 11TL's have similar power ratings and my receiver only puts out 65watts/channel on 2-channel and 55watts/channel on 5.1.
The volume knob goes to 80 something and I cannot turn it past 62 or glass starts breaking and ears start bleeding. As far as clipping is concerned, I've experienced none.

After expressing many concerns and fears about not having enough power here on the forums, I've been told (and done much research to find) H/K is notorious for having clean power that doesn't surge to the speakers and create clipping (not under normal usage).

My speakers will, of course, find a better sound and safer sound at high volumes with an amp, but these speakers are rated at 20-200watts per channel. Like Steveinaz said, it's not ideal, but it's not the end of the world.

I'd hardly consider the aforementioned H/K to be a budget receiver anyway.

There is a big difference between a receiver pushing the RTA series 6ohm speakers, and a receiver trying to push the LSI's 40hm series.

I wouldn't put any of the LSI's on a receiver without the backup of an external amp.

wutadumsn23

cfrizz wrote: »

There is a big difference between a receiver pushing the RTA series 6ohm speakers, and a receiver trying to push the LSI's 40hm series.

I wouldn't put any of the LSI's on a receiver without the backup of an external amp.

+1 LSi's are a whole diff. animal than the RTA's.

-Jeff

everpress

wutadumsn23 wrote: »

+1 LSi's are a whole diff. animal than the RTA's.

-Jeff

Didn't notice that they were 4 ohm... And I think the 11T are 6ohm and the 11TL's are 8ohm... The sales brochure says "Compatible"... I have the owners man. somewhere, but I can't find it.

In short, I stand corrected.

cfrizz

The day I buy a new speaker just to re-do the innards, it will be time for me to be committed!

Your RTA's are compatible with a receiver. All speakers are compatible with receivers, but that doesn't mean you will be hearing the best out of your speakers that are being driven with a receiver.

And with LSI's not only will they not sound their best, but if turned up to loud could risk damage to them or the receiver.

heiney9

everpress wrote: »

I've been running a pair of 11TL's with an older H/K AVR 55. The 11TL's have similar power ratings and my receiver only puts out 65watts/channel on 2-channel and 55watts/channel on 5.1.
The volume knob goes to 80 something and I cannot turn it past 62 or glass starts breaking and ears start bleeding. As far as clipping is concerned, I've experienced none.

After expressing many concerns and fears about not having enough power here on the forums, I've been told (and done much research to find) H/K is notorious for having clean power that doesn't surge to the speakers and create clipping (not under normal usage).

My speakers will, of course, find a better sound and safer sound at high volumes with an amp, but these speakers are rated at 20-200watts per channel. Like Steveinaz said, it's not ideal, but it's not the end of the world.

I'd hardly consider the aforementioned H/K to be a budget receiver anyway.

Yes, but RTA 11's are not LSi 9's. I've owned both, the 9's are about twice as difficult to drive, if not more. So your situation is apples to oranges. HK's make a very decent receiver, no doubt, but it's less than ideal driving LSi 9's to their full potential. Add to that the size of his listening environment (which he didn't specify) and he could be even more handicapped.

H9

marly421

Just my two cents but there's enough 'separate' elitist in this tread to make a mountain sized cupcake

LSi9 (I own) aren't THAT big a deal. Clean power of 10 watts and less will drive the 9's to audio heaven. At normal human listening levels there is no need for 200+ WPC separate amplifiers.

I have a made in China, Class A Integrated Tube Amplifier rated at 12wpc that makes the 9's sing.

I have a vintage HK-795i (Silver face) receiver from around '88 that rated at 70wpc that works well with any Polks I've tried. I've never blown a speaker either.

If you think you need brute force, then you need the brute force. It's your ears, you're the final judge.

Marly

megasat16

marly421 wrote: »

Just my two cents but there's enough 'separate' elitist in this tread to make a mountain sized cupcake

LSi9 (I own) aren't THAT big a deal. Clean power of 10 watts and less will drive the 9's to audio heaven. At normal human listening levels there is no need for 200+ WPC separate amplifiers.

I have a made in China, Class A Integrated Tube Amplifier rated at 12wpc that makes the 9's sing.

I have a vintage HK-795i (Silver face) receiver from around '88 that rated at 70wpc that works well with any Polks I've tried. I've never blown a speaker either.

If you think you need brute force, then you need the brute force. It's your ears, you're the final judge.

Marly

Awesome advise to damage a speaker and the amplifier. Continuous Power (RMS) of 10w or less with no dynamic headroom? The power you are talking about is the Continuous Power Needed for normal listening sound pressure levels (SPL) but no headroom for dynamic passages. Any amp will do if you listen to the earphone SPL from any speaker.

Kex

Some people are offering advice here without much knowledge of either the harman/kardon 3480 or the LSi9, IMO: Nikolas812 owned the LSi9 for a while. He powered them with several setups, including powerful external amplifiers, and he listened loud. According to him, possibly his favorite setup was the LSi9 powered with the h/k 3490. It even left him wondering if the specifications on some of his external amplifiers were bloated, since he found the h/k to be more dynamic, with more headroom at higher volumes.

Nick hasn't been posting all that much recently, but I'll bet he'll confirm this if he reads this thread.

However, why buy the 3480, when the 3490 seems to be available for the same price (check amazon.com)?

http://www.harmankardon.com/specifications.aspx?Region=USA&Country=US&Language=ENG&cat=REC&ser=&prod=HK%203490&sType=C
http://www.harmankardon.com/specifications.aspx?cat=REC&ser=&prod=HK%203480&sType=H
http://www.amazon.com/Harman-Kardon-HK-3490-Receiver/dp/B00198F89A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1255115583&sr=1-1

megasat16

Receiver may drive LSi9. I believe any amp can drive most speakers. But how do they sound and how loud it can go before destroying themselves? H/K Receivers can drive LSi9 but unlocking the full potential of it, I don't know about it. I got two pairs of LSi9 and never ever powered with an AVR or receiver.

Kex

Megasat16, I'm sure you mean well, but you are demonstrating my point perfectly. You are assuming that NO receiver could possibly equal separates, much less better them, but you have not tried any receiver with your LSi9. Nikolas has done both, and came to a conclusion. He had no issues with volume levels. The h/k two channel receivers are rated for four ohm loads (their surround receivers are not), and generally considered modestly rated at that. According to those who have used them, they will drive the LSi9 to the loudest levels anyone is ever likely to need in a normal room without issue, and without risk to equipment.

Drive any equipment to its limits, whether it be a receiver or separates, and you risk damage to the equipment, including the speakers. No equipment is designed to be driven to its maximum output for any length of time, and some will give up sooner than others, just like continually driving a car at 100 mph in second gear: it won't matter whether it's a four cylinder or an eight cylinder, it'll eventually have a problem ... (rhetorically speaking)

megasat16

Kex, You seems confused with my answers! I am not assuming anything. ASSUME (**** U and ME) sounds terrible to an Engineer. Receiver are not separates and thus not equal to separates. The reason I would never ever try my LSi speakers with AVR or Receiver is simple - I want to get the best possible sound from my LSi speakers and to avoid any unwarranted damage.

H/K two channel receiver may be better than it's AVR. But the receiver is rated 150WPC at 4 ohms. See Post # 2. I've already answered the question without Bias. If the question is H/K receiver driving LSi9, may be.

But a receiver driving LSi9 well? NO!

But in general, any speaker works with any amp and any receiver. Unless the listener has hearing disability, 85db-100db continuous SPL is more than one can handle for 30 minutes listening session. So, the first few watts is all we need for very loud volume and all the extras are for heavy dynamic passages (headroom) before the amp or receiver went into clipping.

The h/k two channel receivers are rated for four ohm loads (their surround receivers are not), and generally considered modestly rated at that. According to those who have used them, they will drive the LSi9 to the loudest levels anyone is ever likely to need in a normal room without issue, and without risk to equipment.

The receiver may be able to put out clean undistorted RMS Voltage till it's quoted SPEC. But after that, it went into clipping and voltage sag will occur.

Music and movie are not made to be playing the same RMS level during the whole period. There will be very high Dynamic Peaks during heavy bass passages. Under these heavy Dynamic Peaks, the amp may not be able to cope with the high current demand and clipping may occurs. It may be OK if it only happens a few times a year. But if you kept doing it without knowing when your receiver clips, you are just inviting a disaster upon yourself.


I humbly disagree with your car analogy! It's not about driving equipment to the limit. It's about making sure the equipments will not reach the limit so the failure would occur. Simply put, you are driving safely if you are not pushing the car engine to pass beyond it's maximum torque and horsepower.

But if you are driving a car beyond it's Engine Power, you are inviting an Engine failure.

It's not about driving to the limit. It's about driving before reaching the limit in the safety zone and be comfortable with it. I don't know why you got it backwards.

But yeah, everything will come to an end eventually. (not rhetorically speaking).

cfrizz

Very nice post Mega. I don't go get just the cheapest bare minimum that will allow my speakers to make noise. I want them to have what they need at ALL times so that they can sound the best that they can.

I'm not going to risk my hearing or my gear by turning up the volume full blast. But I want to know that everything will sound the way it should at the volume I'm playing it at with no risk to my ears, speakers, or gear.

It's not about how many watts are being used at any given time. It's about them having all the power they need to access the watts they need at any given time.

I'd rather have it & not need it, rather than need it & not have it.

SKsolutions

In a smaller room, the HK630 drove the 9's very well, consdiering. The 2 channel HK above, has a better better amp section than the AVR's, and should do an even better job. I never ran out of gas, nor had the need to even approach the distortion limit. Of course they sounded more open and dynamic with an Adcom 555, and super smooth with a B&K, but what would you expect.

AudioFilet

I'm using an Outlaw RR2150 to run my LSi9's. It sounds great and I like to play it LOUD! Never had an issue with any clipping or any such thing. It just cranks. I have the HK 3480, but never hooked it up to the 9's. Might have to try it someday. I would bet that it would work just fine. If you're worried about it, send your HK to this guy and have it beefed up just to make sure: http://www.stereodaves.com/hk3490.php

Kex

megasat16 wrote: »

Kex, You seems confused with my answers! I am not assuming anything. ASSUME [...] sounds terrible to an Engineer. Receiver are not separates and thus not equal to separates. The reason I would never ever try my LSi speakers with AVR or Receiver is simple - I want to get the best possible sound from my LSi speakers and to avoid any unwarranted damage. ...

Actually, I'm not in the least confused by your answers. They are perfectly clear, and you are assuming a LOT, for an engineer (sic), as far as I can tell. You have never tried the equipment in question, by your own admission (see above), so you are actually assuming absolutely everything while giving out this advice not to use the equipment you have never tried. Attempting to use receivers that are NOT rated for 4 ohm loads would not be good advice IMO, using receivers that ARE rated for 4 ohm loads is perfectly acceptable, especially when one can still add an amplifier afterwards if one is not entirely happy, and especially when those that have tried the exact equipment in question state that it works better than some separates they have already used (yes, actually used, no assumptions need to be made) to compare.

YMMV.

BlueFox

For what it is worth, in an 11x12 room I drove 4 LSi15s and an LSiC with a Denon 3805 (120W/ch), a Sony 5000ES (120W/ch), a Sony 7100ES (175W/ch), and currently a Sunfire TGA-5400 (800W/ch) with the 7100ES acting as a pre/pro.

With any setup the LSis sounded great. But, they sound better with the Sunfire, and the bass is especially improved.

megasat16

Kex wrote: »

Actually, I'm not in the least confused by your answers. They are perfectly clear, and you are assuming a LOT, for an engineer (sic), as far as I can tell. You have never tried the equipment in question, by your own admission (see above), so you are actually assuming absolutely everything while giving out this advice not to use the equipment you have never tried. Attempting to use receivers that are NOT rated for 4 ohm loads would not be good advice IMO, using receivers that ARE rated for 4 ohm loads is perfectly acceptable, especially when one can still add an amplifier afterwards if one is not entirely happy, and especially when those that have tried the exact equipment in question state that it works better than some separates they have already used (yes, actually used, no assumptions need to be made) to compare.

YMMV.

It's either you are hell of confused not to understand what I wrote in Post # 2 or you are just drowned in your hobby of criticizing others and what they said.

I didn't say it won't work. It's 4 ohms stable receiver and rated for 150WPC @ 4 ohms. It's less than ideal for best possible sound for LSi9. Do you understand what it meant? I read about the receiver working spec before commenting on it.

I never ever want to power my LSi with any receiver whether they will work or not since I want the best possible sound from my LSi and I don't want my speakers damaged when I cranked up the volume. Your opinions of "loud" may not be "Loud" for me.

Of coz, "working well" is another subjective term and yours "working well" may be Bull$hiT to me. I've tried LSi with about 20 different power amps side by side and Parasound works well for my ears. Even watts (power) is not everything for LSi9 to work well. YMMV

Kex

megasat16 wrote: »

... It's less than ideal for best possible sound for LSi9. ...

That is far from certain, as previously stated.

(Oh, and loosen up a tad: there's no need to be rude or aggressive about it, BTW.)

megasat16

Kex wrote: »

That is far from certain, as previously stated.

(Oh, and loosen up a tad: there's no need to be rude or aggressive about it, BTW.)

Kex! I wasn't being rude to you and I also don't need to be aggressive about making my point. I am totally loosen up like a mad dog today.

On the contrary, you are being assertive that I made assumptions that receiver will not work well with the LSi9. But you don't get what I mean.

Anyway, you don't have to agree with what I said. It's my opinion based on my experiments with about 20 or more power amps and Lsi speakers. Opinions are like asses. They stink likes asses when they go bad.

Bass_Pedal

It seems that every time there is a question of Lsi amplification, it always gets heated for the same reason. Most believe external amplification is mandatory, while a few others who have driven Lsi's with an AVR say that they handle "no problem" or "just fine". Personally, I am another Lsi9 owner who has tried a few different methods of amplification, including an HK (AVR 8000) at one point. IMO, there is no question that the difference is immediately apparent when external amps are used (as has already been mentioned) but I don't think many would disputing this. My point is simply, why would you buy a pair of Lsi's if you plan on spending additional money on something that won't give you a decidedly higher quality outcome. If you already own an AVR or receiver that is 4ohm compatible and plan on upgrading to an external amp in the future, then knock yourself out. If however, you are looking to make a new purchase, don't put it into inferior amplification when something better, and within the same price range is readily available. For the money you spend on a new receiver you can pick up a used Adcom GFA555 and still have some cash left over for modest priced preamp.


http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1259453662&/Adcom-gfa-555-ii-

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1260565060&/Adcom-GTP-450-tuner-preamplifi