Most life-size sounding speakers?

madmax

I love my SDA's for big realistic sound. They have one pitfall for me, they don't play poorly mixed or poorly mic'd recordings to my liking. They also have very little depth. Classical music absolutely sucks on them. I've moved on to bigger more efficient speakers and am now happy with most recordings. There are some things the SDA's do very well so I will not give them up, I keep them in another rig.
madmax

debussyj

I love my Acoustat 2+2's because they really wrap the listener in the sound. They are 8' tall by 2' feet wide! I love the way they reveal the parts/layers of the music. Piano, guitar, vocals are pretty amazing on them. However, they're pretty unforgiving of lousy recordings. They still have that "jump factor" for me and I always use this system when I want to do some serious 2-channel listening. Great fun!

michaeljhsda2

"However, they're pretty unforgiving of lousy recordings."

Sounds like a good thing to me because IMO that means they are very accurate.

madmax

Even lousy recordings can have magic.
madmax

ben62670

No single speaker does it all. I have seen way to many SDA's set up way wrong on here never mind what is out there in the public. If they are not setup right they don't do it. A lot of people go too large with SDA's. You can not stick 1.2's in a room that has less than 16 feet of wall space, and you really should have at least that deep. I have not had the full magic of SDA's in my place, and my room is pretty large(they were awesome in my 24x24 foot room in Ft Lauderdale). Now George had his stock 1C's here, and that was awesome. The ones Jerry and I put together worked very well to and handle bad recordings better than Polk SDA's. BTW tubes really help SDA's. That's my next adventure.
Ben

Ron Temple

ben62670 wrote: »

No single speaker does it all. I have seen way to many SDA's set up way wrong on here never mind what is out there in the public. If they are not setup right they don't do it. A lot of people go too large with SDA's. You can not stick 1.2's in a room that has less than 16 feet of wall space, and you really should have at least that deep. I have not had the full magic of SDA's in my place, and my room is pretty large(they were awesome in my 24x24 foot room in Ft Lauderdale). Now George had his stock 1C's here, and that was awesome. The ones Jerry and I put together worked very well to and handle bad recordings better than Polk SDA's. BTW tubes really help SDA's. That's my next adventure.
Ben

Went over to a friends on Saturday. He'd burned a CD for me and I wanted to play a tremendous SDA recording on his conventional rig. He's got a 5.1 system of matched MTMs from Danny Ritchie. They always sound stellar, but they're not SDAs. Anyway, I was really impressed. He'd gotten some new amps and while the SDA effect wasn't there the upper mids, vocals and treble were uncompromisingly smooth. No harshness and every edge on every instrument true and tuneful. I took that burned CD home and was disappointed. Sounded compressed, vocals a tad tinny and treble a bit out of control, no edge, more amorphous than anything...just not pleasing. It's been a couple of days so I played a couple of favorites tonight and heard the SDAs, again, in all their glory. Wide, detailed, lifelike and no harshness. The vocals aren't quite as sweet, but the presentation trumped, by a wide margin, what I'd heard at my friends.

What I learned was not everything sounds as good every time...on every system...and some things/recordings just don't lend themselves. Who knew?

tonyb

Thats why the question at hand is subjective.
Sometimes you get so used to the way your speakers sound,that when you hear another,you perceive it as better,when it may just be a different flavor,not necessarily better.

reeltrouble1

Dawgfish wrote: »

Ok fine they were ESLs. They were described to me by the owner as Ribbons, or so I thought. My bad.

My bad Steve for not explaning the SoundLab speaker properly to you, yes the Amazings you saw are ribbons with four traditional sub drivers in the cabinet, the Amazings can play very deep powerful bass and have a wonderful smooth top-end quite unlike other speakers, where-as the SoundLab is a true ESL, Soundlab has conquered the lack of bass problem that plagues other ESL, folks should visit the Soundlab site to see how Dr. West has trumped the competition with his panel and stator design, Gordon is correct but of course he secrectly desires my SoundLabs;). Fine ESL speakers are noted for their clarity, resolution, imaging, soundstage, detail and so on, they are also a bit per-snickity and need the temperature and humidity properly controlled.

The fact is Gordon Holt long ago educated all of us that their is no perfect audio speaker/device, but there are magnificent speakers and gear that do cause me and you to have an emotional response to the music we enjoy. You will likely find yourself naturally finding and gravitating to gear that plays this music well. Speakers like Soundlab, Martin Logan, Wilson, Quad, top end Maggies, Vienna, Sonus, Revel, Avantgarde and so on can get you there, the fact that the Polk SDA can hang with these big boys of audio is a testament to their fine design and unique sound.

RT1

reeltrouble1

madmax wrote: »

Even lousy recordings can have magic.
madmax

as known, the better the music the worse the recording....so true Max.

RT1

mhardy6647

I am amused by the relatively low number of posts to this thread that actually address its stated topic - "the most life-size[d] sounding speakers" :-) That is, those that get the scope (scale) right. There are lots of speakers out there that "make" 20 foot wide pianos; singers with heads 6 feet in diameter (and 2 feet off the floor); stuff like that. Also minature pianos.

Not all that many get the scale right.

TNRabbit

mhardy6647 wrote: »

I am amused by the relatively low number of posts to this thread that actually address its stated topic - "the most life-size[d] sounding speakers" :-) That is, those that get the scope (scale) right. There are lots of speakers out there that "make" 20 foot wide pianos; singers with heads 6 feet in diameter (and 2 feet off the floor); stuff like that. Also minature pianos.

Not all that many get the scale right.

The scale you're talking about is TOTALLY dependent on the original recording process.

mhardy6647

There's truth to that, but it's not hard to find music recorded with minimal miking and a scaled sense of ambience. Besides the modern "audiophile" recordings (Mapleshade and their ilk) and the 1970s minimalist direct to (vinyl) disk recordings, there are the classic live and studio jazz recordings of the 1950s/ 1960s (Blue Note, etc.) and the seminal Mercury "Living Presence" and RCA "Red Label/Living Stereo" recordings of the 1950s.

It is amusing that recording engineers and producers will manufacture the ambience with multiple microphones on multiple tracks, mixing down to something that sounds "real"...

reeltrouble1

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Also minature pianos.

Not all that many get the scale right.

my all time favorite for the mini-piano is the Fisher Price, perfect chintz, the sustain is a bit lacking though.

true enough though, music lovers may indeed suffer at the hands of audiophile gear companies as well as recording engineers, horns squeak and pop, some treble instruments are played intentionally harsh, yet, gear and recordings can be made to eliminate or reduce these sounds in the name overall tonal charachter or something such.

Anyway, just get the Soundlabs and some tube gear (need good ones) and your all set, nevermind about the cost and yes everything is available new or used.;)

RT1

heiney9

mhardy6647 wrote: »

I am amused by the relatively low number of posts to this thread that actually address its stated topic - "the most life-size[d] sounding speakers" :-) That is, those that get the scope (scale) right. There are lots of speakers out there that "make" 20 foot wide pianos; singers with heads 6 feet in diameter (and 2 feet off the floor); stuff like that. Also minature pianos.

Not all that many get the scale right.

I'll vote for a properly set-up and powered pair of SDA's again. My 1C's with a properly recorded (minimal engineering) live recording will simply blow me away.

Norah Jones Live Dvd and Ani DiFranco Live Dvd give me chills when I listen. The scale, detail and presence is simply astounding to my ears.

On the And Di Franco cd which is recorded in an old church she turned into a pseudo night club and her personal recording studio. The xylophone is delicately placed in the background, the snap of the snare is spot on and the decay of the bass drum is there as well as properly placed background singers. Ani's amplified acoustic guitar has nice cutting bit and I can hear the pick scrape across the strings.......etc, etc. And the band sounds HUGE both L/R and Front to back.

Really, the hair on the back of my neck stands up when I play this recording. It's one of the most life like live recordings I have. The SDA's handle it superbly.

H9

P.s. Throw in a pair of 1950 GE Five Star 6201 tubes in the Dared pre-amp and this is multiplied by 2!!!!!!!!

dkg999

With any conventional monkey-coffin speaker the sounds originate from very small points in space, with some diffraction depending on the design of the ports. There are very few conventional speakers that I can't readily hear the drivers on, and the ones that I can't hear the drivers on I choose not to afford. Although the SDA technology does minimize the pinpointing of the drivers, I can still hear the drivers pretty clearly. What I love about designs such as ESL panels, planars (yes, I'm a Magnepan owner) is that I hear a soundstage, not the drivers or the panels. While there may be some vertical smearing of an individual instrument or vocal, I think the non-conventional speaker designs do a much better job with "life sized" presentation. JMHO.

concealer404

I can't honestly say that i would consider any of the big SDAs as all that great for "accurately" reproducing what the music would have sounded like while recording...

Don't get me wrong, i really like them, and they're fun to listen to, i could listen to them all day. But they aren't anything i would personally consider for critical listening. Keep in mind i've only heard two sets, and that this is my personal opinion only.

Hawkeye

Steve,(Dawgfish) my apologies. I wasn't aware you saw/heard both types of speaker at Ted's.

Ted, you're not far off base. I'm trying a pair of JL Audio F112's right now, but the idea of 2 less boxes is appealing to a certain member of the household.

I received some email from SL looking for a dealer and the closest one is in S.C. I'll be heading down there in a couple months and see what models they have up and running at that time. I'll admit your ad did raise a few hairs on the back of my neck but the subs were already ordered and paid for.

Gordon

madmax

concealer404 wrote: »

I can't honestly say that i would consider any of the big SDAs as all that great for "accurately" reproducing what the music would have sounded like while recording...

This is a setup/room issue. Depending on where you put the sda's you can end up with an accurate soundstage or a VERY wide one. I've heard perfect SDA's in this regard. I'm not saying you have yours setup improperly, just that your room may not allow you to get any better. This is a problem with SDA's. You have to supply what they want, not what you have.
madmax

concealer404

madmax wrote: »

This is a setup/room issue. Depending on where you put the sda's you can end up with an accurate soundstage or a VERY wide one. I've heard perfect SDA's in this regard. I'm not saying you have yours setup improperly, just that your room may not allow you to get any better. This is a problem with SDA's. You have to supply what they want, not what you have.
madmax

Oh, i don't own a pair.

It was more the frequency curve and the "effect" more than anything. The big boys were way too bass heavy for my tastes, and the effect was strange to me.

Like i said, i was floored by them, just not really my choice for critical listening. It's all personal preference i guess. I'd still like a pair, but it'd be for fun.

madmax

I just mentioned it because if set up right in the right room there is no "effect" and they are not bass heavy. Its hard to do and may take many rooms...

Face

The pair you heard were too large for the room. A pair of SRS II's or 1C's may have been more suitable for that room. I feel that bass reproduction is one of the strong points of SDA's.

heiney9

Face wrote: »

I feel that bass reproduction is one of the strong points of SDA's.

Absolutely.

concealer404

Face wrote: »

The pair you heard were too large for the room. A pair of SRS II's or 1C's may have been more suitable for that room. I feel that bass reproduction is one of the strong points of SDA's.

It's possible. They were Nik's.

mantis

Zero wrote: »

c_corie,

You're undertaking what I would consider to be a difficult quest. I say that because in my own travels, I have yet to find a loudspeaker that can reproduce every instrument with truly proportional scale, tone, and dynamics. Though some loudspeakers typically do a few things very well, there is always an attached caveat. For example:

A real good set of compact two-way monitors are exceptional at reproducing vocals and period instruments. However, most small monitors will fall way short when tasked to capture the raw power of an amplified performance. If your priority is to capture the thrill and scale of Itzhak Pearlman, get a pair of Sonus Faber Guarneri Memento's and be done with it.

But, lets just say you are into jazz quartets, piano, vocal ensembles, etc.. That's when the world of boxless designs may become something to look at. Magnepan. Martin Logan. Apogee. Quad. Most folks that own these speakers love them because of their unique sound and ability to sound startlingly life-like with regards to the aforementioned types of music. These speakers typically sport a large radiating surface, which allows them to unravel complex harmonic passages in a way that most smaller, more traditional speakers cannot. I've found that brass and woodwinds in particular sound very proportional on these designs. If anything though, one could argue that these designs often sound 'larger than life'. I always joke with my flat-panel loving buds about how their vocalists sound as though they have a 10ft head. That said, for all panels can do, you'll never find a drummer owning a set of Maggies. Why? Because panels just can't do bass the way a large cones and domes dynamic loudspeaker can. Sure, one could argue that you can always add a subwoofer, but a subwoofer wont kick-**** and capture the same harmonic structure that a real good full-range tower can.

So lets say you want to *feel* the kick of a drum, and you want it to sound perfectly to scale. Well, a small set of monitors or towers wont do that. Panels wont do that. That means your only option will be larger traditional speakers that can move lots of air. So lets look at options from Legacy Audio, PMC's larger speakers, ATC's larger speakers, JBL's high end lines, Wilson Audio, etc.. Here is when you start getting into loudspeakers that can kick **** and take names. If you want to capture the raw power of a live venue, be it the growl of an electric guitar or the thwack of a drum kit - this is where you'll want to be. The experience these speakers provide can take you to a downright visceral plateau. But aside from their monetary cost, what are you losing? For starters, you typically lose a bit of imaging that a set of real good monitors can provide. You also may lose a bit of that "walk through" presentation that panels are coveted for. However, none of those designs will ultimately do justice to large scale orchestral pieces, drum sets, and other large performances (sans perhaps those big-**** Apogee or SoundLab panels). If feel the above assets are important to you, than big dynamic speakers is where you'll want to be.

So, at the end of the day, its a matter of picking your poison. If you find yourself staring wide eyed at the screen and saying "But... I want it all!". Well then, you either better tone down the expectations a bit or prepare to put down a hefty investment - because having "it all" doesn't come cheap. However, if you can settle for "pretty good", there are some fine options out there that wont require the investment the size of a Corvette.

Good luck!

As usual excellent post and very good advise.

I will add a few speakers I have come across that moved me.

Dynaudio Confidence C4's. They Retail for 16k or maybe a little more now but they are still current and one of if not the best overall speaker I have ever heard at any price. This speaker sounded "real". I swore I could smell the drum sticks wood when it struck the high hats. I could hear it. The voice on this speaker is so damn real I thought Lorenna Mckenitt herself was standing in the room singing to me for me. If I ever had the chance to own these speakers , I would never need anything else. This is where my jouney ends.

B&W N801's. They where around 12k back in the day. I think the Diamone series are a little more. This is another speaker that when playing the right music has no limits. It's one of those speakers that sit in a class by itself. It's worthy of being called the best of the best. Worth a listen.

Totem Winds. They go around 13k and they like the Dynaudio are unbelievably impressive. the breath one tastes feels like the air in the room just got thinner. Such impact and force yet soft and comfortable. Truly a benchmark in our industry.

Martin Logan Prodigy. They are out of production but they went for 12k back in 2002. Height and width always come to mind when listening to them. I could sit for hours and lose myself in there soundstage. It's so wide and deep it's hard to understand where it starts and ends. Simply top 5 speaker ever made.

I could go on and on there are so many gems out there. As Zero pointed out , you gotta figure out what you want out of your speakers. As foolish as it sounds it matter what you listen to when deciding on a good pair of speakers. There job is to reproduce sound but things don't always work out they way you want them 2.

I strongly suggest you get out there and find places that still demo. Our store is still heavy into 2 channel and good quality speakers and I feel sadly today it's a dyeing art. It's sad but very very true. Thanks Internet.

Dan

mantis

Thanks now I just wanna go listen to some 2 channel.

madmax

Zero wrote: »

So, at the end of the day, its a matter of picking your poison. If you find yourself staring wide eyed at the screen and saying "But... I want it all!". Well then, you either better tone down the expectations a bit or prepare to put down a hefty investment - because having "it all" doesn't come cheap. However, if you can settle for "pretty good", there are some fine options out there that wont require the investment the size of a Corvette.

Good luck!

I still want it all.
madmax

Dawgfish

Ted,

I actually think you did described the ribbon and ESLs to me, that was a rather interesting weekend, so I probably forgot it or misconstrued what you said. It's all good. Now I now the difference. That was an amazing experience. I'm looking forward to making it back over your way. Work has brought me out to Idaho right now and I'm enjoying it, but I'll give you a shout when I get back to the Golden Isles. Thanks again!

Hawkeye, no worries. Thanks for keeping me straight!

Steve