Large or Small Setting

pm8546

I have a Sony STRDG820 7.1 Audio Video Receiver 100 Watts X 7 Amplifier Power (8 ohms, 1Khz, 1.0% THD) hooked to a Polk Audio PSW10 10-Inch Monitor Series Powered Subwoofer, Polk Audio RM8's for my surounds. I am replacing my front speakers with new Tsi400's.

Can someone please explain to me the difference in the settings of small and large in my receivers settings? And with my equipment set up what I should have each speaker set at?

Again Thanks for the help..

kuntasensei

You should have all speakers set to small. The difference between large and small is this: Large = full range. That means the speaker should be capable of playing audio from 20Hz-20kHz, which very few speakers actually are. The large setting doesn't send any of the bass from that channel to the subwoofer, though the LFE channel in digital surround is still played back through the subwoofer. Small typically means that the receiver crosses each channel over to the subwoofer at around 80Hz (though I think older Sony AVRs used 90Hz - not sure about yours).

Another big reason for setting them to small is that it frees up some headroom on your receiver's amp section since bass is the hardest to reproduce, power wise.

pm8546

Thanks kuntasensei,
Thats alot easier to understand then other things I have been reading.

vijayl

Welcome to CP, we have several experts who explain complex things in a very simple way..

pearsall001

Here's a good read on the very subject...http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/128214.html

hearingimpared

Thanks for the link Phil. Now I have to make some changes.

potee

Thanks for the link it really explains things pretty good and is understandable.

vijayl

Thanks for bringing this point on Pio and LSi. Same applies to Mythos ST as well..

Even if u don't hav Pio; for Mythos ST it shud be fine to set them as Large, as Mythos manual suggest the same and it says that Sub-out is not necessary and ST handles low-freq internally..
Dan may have some insight..

ben62670

Isn't small generally around 150hz, large around 80hz, and another setting for full? If the speakers are set to small with decent frequency range speaker then the sub has to run way to high to sound good. The owners receivers manual should tell you the XO point when setting to large, small or full range.
Welcome to Club Polk.
Ben

kuntasensei

ben62670 wrote: »

Isn't small generally around 150hz, large around 80hz, and another setting for full? If the speakers are set to small with decent frequency range speaker then the sub has to run way to high to sound good. The owners receivers manual should tell you the XO point when setting to large, small or full range.
Welcome to Club Polk.
Ben

Nope. Large = full range. Small = 80Hz, 95% of the time (I've seen 90Hz used on Yamahas and 100Hz on low-end older AVRs). But what you have to remember is that you still get appreciable output down to 40Hz even with a 80Hz crossover, because it's a gradual transition. That's why 80Hz works so well even with floorstanders.

The other side of this whole thing is AVRs that have independently adjustable crossovers. In general, I recommend setting the crossover at least a half-octave above the speaker's -3dB point. So if a speaker's low -3dB point is 50Hz, 50 x 1.5 = 75Hz. That said, even in the case of adjustable crossovers, 80Hz is usually the best setting for most speakers.

I don't recommend any setting that sends the bass both to the subwoofer and to the mains (such as "plus" on the Pioneer or "double bass" on the Onkyo), as there are serious frequency issues with bass produced from multiple point sources. It makes speaker placement even more problematic, and as the bass from the 3 source points interacts, it could give you a wildly varying frequency response from seat to seat. You would still get the advantage of having mains with built-in powered woofers when using an 80Hz crossover, since the speaker is still being asked to assist the subwoofer down to 40Hz for that particular channel. Also, you would still get the full advantage of the speaker in 2-channel listening since most AVRs' direct mode sets the mains to full range anyway (typically also having a stereo mode that keeps the subwoofer in play using the crossover on the AVR).

Krazyz1

1st off I have to assume you are using LFE. And I hate assuming. Per the test to become a certified VELODYNE sub pro it reads like this and hope you find it helpful. Just a few statements from test. When your Home theatre receiver is set for " LARGE " ALL signals below 80HZ are NOT routed to the subwoofer. Too little amplifier power in a subwoofer will result in ,Restricted headroom , so the musical peaks sound muddied. Also lack of control of the driver ,so notes don't sound clean. The early onset of distortion during heavy bass passages. Bass frequencies reside below 200Hz. GREAT subwoofers have output from 20-40 Hz and higher. Many consumer subwoofers can not accurately reproduce bass below 40Hz. Typically , most modern loudspeakers and subwoofers are very inefficent , turning roughly 2% of input power into useable energy. FOOD FOR THOUGHT

pm8546

Thanks for all of the great information, but this brings up my other confussion issues on the crossover frequency for my system below.
Should I set my fronts (Tsi400's) to 80, Center (RM8) to 80, and surrounds (RM8's) to 80?

Thanks again for all of the great help....



I have a Sony STRDG820 7.1 Audio Video Receiver 100 Watts X 7 Amplifier Power (8 ohms, 1Khz, 1.0% THD) hooked to a Polk Audio PSW10 10-Inch Monitor Series Powered Subwoofer, Polk Audio RM8's for my surounds and center speaker, I am replacing my front speakers with new Tsi400's

danz1906

pm8546 wrote: »

Thanks for all of the great information, but this brings up my other confussion issues on the crossover frequency for my system below.
Should I set my fronts (Tsi400's) to 80, Center (RM8) to 80, and surrounds (RM8's) to 80?

Thanks again for all of the great help....



I have a Sony STRDG820 7.1 Audio Video Receiver 100 Watts X 7 Amplifier Power (8 ohms, 1Khz, 1.0% THD) hooked to a Polk Audio PSW10 10-Inch Monitor Series Powered Subwoofer, Polk Audio RM8's for my surounds and center speaker, I am replacing my front speakers with new Tsi400's

Yes, 80hz would be the correct setting. All set to small.

danz1906

xcapri79 wrote: »

I agree with this in general, and it is useful for most systems, but I disagree when it comes to speakers such as the LSi25. The LSi25 has it's own controls for it's built-in sub volume and cross-over. You also touch on the issue of one vs several subwoofers. If you spend the time to set them up, multiple subwoofers definitely can provide a superior home theater experience for multiple seating arrangements.

In your case,do you run your Large? or just used the LFE of Subs?

pm8546

Thanks again

This is a great site for someone like me, still learning.

Erik Tracy

xcapri79 wrote: »

I agree with this in general, and it is useful for most systems, but I disagree when it comes to speakers such as the LSi25. The LSi25 has it's own controls for it's built-in sub volume and cross-over. You also touch on the issue of one vs several subwoofers. If you spend the time to set them up, multiple subwoofers definitely can provide a superior home theater experience for multiple seeating arrangements.

I also say go try things for yourself.

The HT gods will not descend upon you in wrath for setting you mains to Large, and the Universe will continue to exist, and your speakers will not explode.

There is nothing sacrosanct about xover settings except what sounds best to you....start with the 'guidelines' and then figure out what YOU like best.

McLoki

I will often run my LSi15's as large when doing music listening, but they are always set to small with an 80hz crossover (ok, sometimes 60hz) when listening to movies. With my room and setup, it just sounds better that way.

It is not hard to change - I would recommend starting with all speakers set to small with an 80hz crossover and try and experiment from there to determine what sounds best in your room, with your setup.

Michael

McLoki

xcapri79 wrote: »

I'm surprised at that considering you are running a good external amp.

There are a few reasons for it....

1. - My room just sucks for bass..... My SVS subs are placed for the best bass at my listening position and are equalized with a BFD. My LSi15's are not. Due to that, bass below 80hz (actually below 100, but I do not run that crossover setting much) sounds best coming from my SVS subs rather than my LSi's.

2. - For home theater uses, the 8" woofers in my LSi speakers just cannot hold a candle to the impact available from 2 - 12" subs.

3. - When listening to a movie, often my wife considers that most whispers should be about the same volume as an atomic blast. It is easier to just adjust the sub down a few notches and keep the dialog volume the same rather than adjust the master volume down to much and then I cannot hear dialog in the movie.....

4. - Even though the LSi15's have an 8" woofer than playes below 150hz - IMO bass is still the weak point in the speaker. That may change when I perform the crossover upgrade on it, but for now - bass is what the LSi15 is weakest at, why not let it play to its strength and let the SVS handle what it does best?

Michael

pearsall001

The concept of setting all speakers to small is needed when the speakers are powered directly off the AVR. In that case, headroom is limited with the AVR amp, so the setting needs to be optimized.
With good external amps, you generally have all the headroom you need, so there is generally no need to restrict the AVR output.[/QUOTE]

Not true at all. The same settings apply with just an AVR or with an external amp in the mix. Also, it's not so much about headroom as it is that the vast majority of speakers out there can't produce deep base. The term fullrange is thrown around very loosely & doesn't apply to about 99.9% of speakers out there.

debussyj

Michael-I totally agree with your post! I too have a full LSI system. It took me a long time to accept setting the LSI 15's on "small" until I purchased my SVS sub and Ed Mullen basically had to beat the concept into my head. He was right. Even though I have a decent amount of WPC, setting the 15's on small really opened up the soundstage. I hear so much more cool stuff and the bass is much more commanding. The other big plus is the amps run much cooler because they don't have to attempt pushing the drivers in the 15's. Much better way to go all around. My only regret is I was so thick in the head about it!:)

mstang1988

pearsall001 wrote: »

The concept of setting all speakers to small is needed when the speakers are powered directly off the AVR. In that case, headroom is limited with the AVR amp, so the setting needs to be optimized.
With good external amps, you generally have all the headroom you need, so there is generally no need to restrict the AVR output.

Not true at all. The same settings apply with just an AVR or with an external amp in the mix. Also, it's not so much about headroom as it is that the vast majority of speakers out there can't produce deep base. The term fullrange is thrown around very loosely & doesn't apply to about 99.9% of speakers out there.[/QUOTE]

Yes, most speakers are not full range, not even a 23K pair of B&W 800D's which are -6dB at 25Hz and 33kHz. That said finding a good crossover point for your speakers and having a fast/clean sub is what's important to get the frequency response you want. Also, 2-channel vs home theatre is largely a different beast. His TSi400's are -3db's at 44Hz dB and 24KHz so I would suggest setting them on Large and set the cross over on the sub to start picking up the slack near the 44hz setting (given that he has ample power for the 400's) during 2 channel and for movies let the sub play up to 80 hz and do a listen test to see if he likes them on "small" or "large". The listeners ear is what wins in the end. With the rolloff on the sub somewhere slightly below the 44hz you can probably create a fairly flat frequency response from 20-44hz with the combination (bar room interaction).

I have RTi12's which are currently crossed at 40hz (-3db @ 30Hz and 26kHz with a frequency response of 18Hz-27kHz). I do have them stuffed with power though with each getting their own 500w RMS monoblock and they will thump you in the chest when approaching reference levels with good, clean, deep, tight bass. Most home theatre subs will not produce this tight, clean bass. I have an infinity job and it's meh, I'd far rather have my 2-channel stuff be speakers only, no sub. Yeah, it's slightly deeper with the sub but it just doesn't sound clean/tight and the instruments aren't defined. Home theatre, I have the mains on Large with the sub for that extra thump. My next sub(s) will be a pair of fathoms, or sub 25's from paradigm or a pair of SVS PB-13 Ultra's but they come after the main upgrade so that's a long long time down the road.

80hz and below humans aren't supposed to be able to localize the sound field, however I call BS. I can always tell where my sub is and it's crossed at 80hz (yeah, roll off etc has an effect) but it also has to do with with the size of my room and how the sound field is produced. One ear is getting far more SP then the other (sub is way undersized for the room. 15x16 with open 16x20 and 10x10 and 15x10 rooms attached with partial walls).

Back on topic:

Try it both ways for music and home theatre. You aren't going to damage your speakers unless you drive them up into crazy limits and with a 91db sensitivity you shouldn't be driving those into clipping unless you are driving all channels hard. Yeah, the AMP is going to lack headroom and you may loose a little tightness butt I'm betting it's still cleaner then the bass out of his sub.

Erik Tracy

mstang1988 wrote: »

Yes, most speakers are not full range, not even a 23K pair of B&W 800D's which are -6dB at 25Hz and 33kHz. That said finding a good crossover point for your speakers and having a fast/clean sub is what's important to get the frequency response you want. Also, 2-channel vs home theatre is largely a different beast. His TSi400's are -3db's at 44Hz dB and 24KHz so I would suggest setting them on Large and set the cross over on the sub to start picking up the slack near the 44hz setting (given that he has ample power for the 400's) during 2 channel and for movies let the sub play up to 80 hz and do a listen test to see if he likes them on "small" or "large". The listeners ear is what wins in the end. With the rolloff on the sub somewhere slightly below the 44hz you can probably create a fairly flat frequency response from 20-44hz with the combination (bar room interaction).

I have RTi12's which are currently crossed at 40hz (-3db @ 30Hz and 26kHz with a frequency response of 18Hz-27kHz). I do have them stuffed with power though with each getting their own 500w RMS monoblock and they will thump you in the chest when approaching reference levels with good, clean, deep, tight bass. Most home theatre subs will not produce this tight, clean bass. I have an infinity job and it's meh, I'd far rather have my 2-channel stuff be speakers only, no sub. Yeah, it's slightly deeper with the sub but it just doesn't sound clean/tight and the instruments aren't defined. Home theatre, I have the mains on Large with the sub for that extra thump. My next sub(s) will be a pair of fathoms, or sub 25's from paradigm or a pair of SVS PB-13 Ultra's but they come after the main upgrade so that's a long long time down the road.

80hz and below humans aren't supposed to be able to localize the sound field, however I call BS. I can always tell where my sub is and it's crossed at 80hz (yeah, roll off etc has an effect) but it also has to do with with the size of my room and how the sound field is produced. One ear is getting far more SP then the other (sub is way undersized for the room. 15x16 with open 16x20 and 10x10 and 15x10 rooms attached with partial walls).

Back on topic:

Try it both ways for music and home theatre. You aren't going to damage your speakers unless you drive them up into crazy limits and with a 91db sensitivity you shouldn't be driving those into clipping unless you are driving all channels hard. Yeah, the AMP is going to lack headroom and you may loose a little tightness butt I'm betting it's still cleaner then the bass out of his sub.

AVRs have memory settings so that you can dial in your rig for different modes.

I do for music and HT - because as said above - they are different 'beasts'.

And depending on the AVR - the ability to 'integrate' a sub may be easier if the sub is line or speaker level connected because not all AVRs have the granularity for xover settings - and also, for music listening, many - like myself - prefer the Pure Direct mode which disables the sub altogether.

As for headroom and power - more tweeters have been fried or damaged than woofers when the AVR or amp is pushed to clipping. That is user error no matter what the setup and you get what you deserve.

For movies, I will readily admit, that I have my mains set to small and my xover set to 80Hz - but when it comes to music - I run line level connections to my sub and go Pure Direct and use the sub's over to integrate to my mains - or sometimes - I won't even use the sub.

Depends.

Experiment.

It's all different and good.

mstang1988

Erik Tracy wrote: »

AVRs have memory settings so that you can dial in your rig for different modes.

I do for music and HT - because as said above - they are different 'beasts'.

And depending on the AVR - the ability to 'integrate' a sub may be easier if the sub is line or speaker level connected because not all AVRs have the granularity for xover settings - and also, for music listening, many - like myself - prefer the Pure Direct mode which disables the sub altogether.

As for headroom and power - more tweeters have been fried or damaged than woofers when the AVR or amp is pushed to clipping. That is user error no matter what the setup and you get what you deserve.

For movies, I will readily admit, that I have my mains set to small and my xover set to 80Hz - but when it comes to music - I run line level connections to my sub and go Pure Direct and use the sub's over to integrate to my mains - or sometimes - I won't even use the sub.

Depends.

Experiment.

It's all different and good.

Same here, different settings for different listening. I go with a "Pure Direct" mode as well, no sub.

Yes, if your speakers are clipping you need to invest in seperate amps and most likely if you are going for high db's then maybe even a more power capable speaker. You get what you deserve...

I do understand why people choose to crossover @ 80hz, bass takes by far the most power to drive, it's true and by crossing at 80hz you get more headroom and less chance of clipping, especially as stated above mids/highs are what go due to clipping usually. Especially during movies with all channels driven. Seriously though, 91db's @ 1 watt @ 1 meter with a pink noise generator is a LOT of noise. 94db @ 2, 97 @ 4, 100@8, 103 @ 16... It's the quality of the first watt that some people say matters.

Also note, your AVR is probably on par with the 910 when all channels are driven (about 30 watts a channel). http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=949226

Bernal

debussyj wrote: »

Michael-I totally agree with your post! I too have a full LSI system. It took me a long time to accept setting the LSI 15's on "small" until I purchased my SVS sub and Ed Mullen basically had to beat the concept into my head. He was right. Even though I have a decent amount of WPC, setting the 15's on small really opened up the soundstage. I hear so much more cool stuff and the bass is much more commanding. The other big plus is the amps run much cooler because they don't have to attempt pushing the drivers in the 15's. Much better way to go all around. My only regret is I was so thick in the head about it!:)

Hi,
I use my (LSi15) principally as a "Large" configuration to 60Hz and the sound is excellent.

---

01) DENON AVR-4308CI: Advanced 7.1 CH/5.1+2 CH/ 3.1+2+2 CH A/V Home Theater /MultiMedia Multi-Source/Zone Receiver with Networking and WiFi/170 watts x 7 channels
02) SUNFIRE Grand Signature - Bob Carver's:D
03) OPPO DV-980H 1080p Up-Converting Universal DVD Player with HDMI and 7.1CH Audio
04) OPPO BDP-83 Blu-ray Disc Player w/SACD & DVD-Audio / DENON DVD-2500BTCI: Blu-ray Disc™ DVD/CD Digital Player/Transport
05) HITACHI P55T501. 55" HD1080 Plasma HDTV
06) POLKAUDIO LSiC (Center speaker)
07) POLKAUDIO LSi15 LEFT (Front speaker):D
08) POLKAUDIO LSi15 RIGHT (Front speaker):D
09) POLKAUDIO LSif/x LEFT (Surround speaker)
10) POLKAUDIO LSif/x RIGHT (Surround speaker)
11) VELODYNE OPTIMUN 12" (High Output Digital EQ SubWoofer 2400W/1200WRMS):D

McLoki

So, are you using a double bass method or something (sending bass to the LSi as well as the sub)? If you have the speaker set as large, it typically gets a full range signal and no crossover setting (regardless of what it is set to) is active.

Bernal

Yes combining the LFE signal to the subwoofer to 120Hz.

---

01) DENON AVR-4308CI: Advanced 7.1 CH/5.1+2 CH/ 3.1+2+2 CH A/V Home Theater /MultiMedia Multi-Source/Zone Receiver with Networking and WiFi/170 watts x 7 channels
02) SUNFIRE Grand Signature - Bob Carver's
03) OPPO DV-980H 1080p Up-Converting Universal DVD Player with HDMI and 7.1CH Audio
04) OPPO BDP-83 Blu-ray Disc Player w/SACD & DVD-Audio / DENON DVD-2500BTCI: Blu-ray Disc™ DVD/CD Digital Player/Transport
05) HITACHI P55T501. 55" HD1080 Plasma HDTV
06) POLKAUDIO LSiC (Center speaker)
07) POLKAUDIO LSi15 LEFT (Front speaker)
08) POLKAUDIO LSi15 RIGHT (Front speaker)
09) POLKAUDIO LSif/x LEFT (Surround speaker)
10) POLKAUDIO LSif/x RIGHT (Surround speaker)
11) VELODYNE OPTIMUN 12" (High Output Digital EQ SubWoofer 2400W/1200WRMS

Bernal

.....

Audio292

Hey guys Eric here new member and need bit of clarifcation.


So right now i have a setup using Yamaha's HTR 6140 with RM75 fronts, center, and rears. The crossover set in the sound menus is at 80HZ. So since people are saying setting the speakers front, centre, rears to 1 octave lower from 80HX Crossover, how would i do it on the Yamaha's 6140? the only way i can do it from reading the manual is through "Speaker level" which i have access to adjust each speaker front, center and rears from -10db- +10db. So what i need to know is that the right menu i am looking at and what is the correct DB to set it at - or +.



Thanks.

Eric.

McLoki

Audio292 wrote: »

Hey guys Eric here new member and need bit of clarifcation.


So right now i have a setup using Yamaha's HTR 6140 with RM75 fronts, center, and rears. The crossover set in the sound menus is at 80HZ. So since people are saying setting the speakers front, centre, rears to 1 octave lower from 80HX Crossover, how would i do it on the Yamaha's 6140? the only way i can do it from reading the manual is through "Speaker level" which i have access to adjust each speaker front, center and rears from -10db- +10db. So what i need to know is that the right menu i am looking at and what is the correct DB to set it at - or +.



Thanks.

Eric.

Hi Eric and welcome to Club Polk.

You are fine at 80hz - don't worry about changing it. The Speaker Level input you are talking about above (the +-10db) you do want to adjust though. No one here can tell you what to set it to. What it is for is, when you are in your main listening position, you adjust each channel so they are all the same volume when playing a test tone.

You ensure they are the same volume by using an SPL meter (it can be purchased at Radio Shack for about $40-$50). You can use the test tones built into your AVR or you can use some from a calibration DVD like Avia or Digital Video Essentials.

Make sense or open up more questions? If still not sure - ask away....

Michael

Audio292

McLoki wrote: »

Hi Eric and welcome to Club Polk.

You are fine at 80hz - don't worry about changing it. The Speaker Level input you are talking about above (the +-10db) you do want to adjust though. No one here can tell you what to set it to. What it is for is, when you are in your main listening position, you adjust each channel so they are all the same volume when playing a test tone.

You ensure they are the same volume by using an SPL meter (it can be purchased at Radio Shack for about $40-$50). You can use the test tones built into your AVR or you can use some from a calibration DVD like Avia or Digital Video Essentials.

Make sense or open up more questions? If still not sure - ask away....

Michael

Yeah Michael it does make sense, but i haven't done the calibration with the mic yet. Should i do it?


Anyway i have one question....the RM6880 Speakers are they more superior than the RM75's? or the same?

Audio292

McLoki wrote: »

Hi Eric and welcome to Club Polk.

You are fine at 80hz - don't worry about changing it. The Speaker Level input you are talking about above (the +-10db) you do want to adjust though. No one here can tell you what to set it to. What it is for is, when you are in your main listening position, you adjust each channel so they are all the same volume when playing a test tone.

You ensure they are the same volume by using an SPL meter (it can be purchased at Radio Shack for about $40-$50). You can use the test tones built into your AVR or you can use some from a calibration DVD like Avia or Digital Video Essentials.

Make sense or open up more questions? If still not sure - ask away....

Michael

Oh just to add from what i wrote above...don't i set my Rm75 to 100hz crossover just because its says in one of the articles i read on here. Or is 80Hz just fine.