Polk LSi speakers

rickfaldo

Don't know if I have a speaker problem, a receiver problem or both. I have LSi 9 fronts, actually LSi's all around, but using stereo(2 ch) mode only. Receiver is an Integra DTR 7.1 While turning up the volume to midway, the receiver shuts off with a protection warning. Now Integra says the problem is with the speakers, possible blown mids or something like that. Polk says the problem is likely with the speaker wires shorting out. Not! No speaker wires are touching and I can't imagine the mids are blown, these speakers are only a couple of months old. This is the highest the volume has been. Is it possible this receiver doesn't like the 4 ohm speakers? I know the combination is not perfect but it was supposed to be adequate. At this mid volume setting, the speakers sound like crap!
Anyone have any input?
Thanks in advance.
Rick

Steve@3dai

More than likey the amp is being overloaded. The LSis can bring a reciever to it's knees!

Well, now that I think about it, you should be ok. Do you have another set of speakers or amp to try?

RuSsMaN

Volume at *halfway*????

Agree on the overload Steve-o.

phuz

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Volume at *halfway*????

Agree on the overload Steve-o.

I'll be the third to agree. Do you have a seperate amp that you can test with? Other speakers to test with?

What guage wire are you using? At least 14awg? Bi-wired or no?

pjdami

Rick,

You need to do a little troubleshooting. Disconnect your surrounds and try to just run your mains with at least 14 gauge wire like what was recommended above. Try the A speaker output. Then switch to the B speaker output and see if there is any difference. Turn down the bass and treble to flat too to see if that helps. Set your speakers to small also. Try different combinations and tell us what the results are. We need data man to help you out.

I agree with the others. You are asking that receiver to do a lot for you with LSis. The LSis do not sound like "crap" with the proper amplification.

Did this problem just start or has it been like this the whole time?

Paul

TonyPTX

I'll fourth that. Onkyo doesn't say it will run 4 ohm speaks. They claim a minimum of 6 ohms. If you crank it too high, you're probably clipping the amp and it's shutting off from overheating. If the Integra 7.1 has pre-amp outs, it may be worth looking at getting a seperate power amp rated for 4 ohm loads and connecting your LSi mains and center channel to it. It's one of the main reasons why I'm trying to sell my SR600.

rickfaldo

Thanks for all the good input guys. I have not done much troubleshooting but here is what I do know.
Integra did tell me this receiver would work fine with 4 ohm Polk speakers. Polk also told me the same thing although they did say these speakers like clean power, I understand that.
No, it has not done this before. I was running only the fronts when this happened. I am using 12 gauge speaker wire, bare ends. Integras do not have A/B switches. I have the volume display set to absolute. "As a reference, the volume setting of Ref(62) is used as the 0-decibel for the relative display method. I had it set to 50 when it "clipped." 80 is maximum. I have had the volume to this level in HT mode, that is, all speakers operating while watching DVD's. No problems there. As a side line, this receiver has a cooling fan that is supposed to operate if excessive heat is detected, I don't believe it when on. It has never activated since I have owned this receiver. I did try again to produce the clipping with only the fronts in stereo mode, and I couldn't make it clip although I did not leave it at that volume lever for very long....no party this time.
Guess I better make plans to either trade in this receiver or at least add an amp with more power, maybe a Parasound or something like that......it never ends does it? Anyone want to buy a slightly used Integra?
Thanks again for all your help. Just wish manufacturers would be honest when answering questions from consumers. Mantis told me I was crazy to match this receiver with LSi's, right now he is looking pretty right.....I hate that.
Ciao,
Rick

STUFFMD

Hey guys.....My 797 is rated all the way down to 3 ohms/ Stereo 2 times 250 watts @3 ohms Dynamic power output. 2 times 210 @ 4 ohms.
Stuff

polkatese

Quick question on Integra brand while we are on the subject, is Integra related to Integra Research (such as the RDV-7)? I think Integra is the upper sibling of Oink, is IR the Elite of Integra? thanks...

phuz

Even though LSi speakers are nominal 4ohms, at the levels you are talking about they will dip down to 2ohms. Get an amp!

Dr. Spec

Are your speaker set to large or small in 2 channel stereo mode? The minimum impedance for a driver is at its Fs, which is always a lower bass frequency. I'm guessing the Fs of the LSi9 bass driver is probably around 50 Hz.

Of course the impedance curve might have lows elsewhere in the bandwidth caused by other variables in the crossover network, but high passing the speaks on small in 2 channel stereo mode is at least worth a try to confirm or eliminate this possible problem.

Doc

rickfaldo

Thanks for the input. Speakers are set to small.
Rick

rickfaldo

Polkatese: Yes, they are related. High end of the Integra line which in turn is supposed to be the high end of the Onkyo line.
Rick

Mike&Natalie

Have purchased an Integra 7.1 and LSi15, LSiC, LSifx, LSi7. Velodyne SW 12.

Will I have the same problem? The components are not installed as of yet. The Integra was recommended by alocal HT company.
Suggestions?

BeginnersLuck

Since you already have the stuff, hook it up and give us some result. Maybe you will not experience the same problems. If you do, just return the receiver before it's too late. The store you bought it from should have not problem exchanging it as long as you give them a call and let them know your intentions.

If they refuse to accept an exchange after a certain trial period is up, they your best bet would be to exchange it while you can...it's not worth the risk of being stuck with somethin that will not work for you.

Most local audio dealers are very understanding and should allow you a trial period...so just give them a call and see how it goes. Let us know what you decide.

Thanks,
-BL

phuz

Originally posted by Mike&Natalie
Have purchased an Integra 7.1 and LSi15, LSiC, LSifx, LSi7. Velodyne SW 12.

Will I have the same problem? The components are not installed as of yet. The Integra was recommended by alocal HT company.
Suggestions?

Yes please try it out and let us know. That will be one heck of a load you will be putting on that receiver. If it goes into protection mode, we'd like to know.

Like BL said, you should have at least a few days and maybe up to 30 days to do some good testing. Check with the dealer to make sure. If the LSi's suck the life out of it, take it back!

Congrats on the LSi, and welcome to the club!

rickfaldo

From my experience, the Integra is a good receiver but not enough power for the LSi Polk speakers. Can't see any upside to keeping the receiver if you have not used it yet and it is still in the box.
From what I have read elsewhere, Denon and Rotel would be much more suited to the LSi speakers. If I hadn't already used my Integra, I would have returned it in a New York minute! With the money from the Integra plus another couple k, you would be set. I don't believe you can get enough power within that Integra price range. Separates are really the way to go but again, that is an upgrade in price point.
good luck
Rick

p.s. I can't believe you guys are telling this person to give the Integra a try after telling me to "get an amp" What's up with that? His system with LSi15's will bring the Integra to its knees!

polkatese

Originally posted by rickfaldo

p.s. I can't believe you guys are telling this person to give the Integra a try after telling me to "get an amp" What's up with that? His system with LSi15's will bring the Integra to its knees!

Rick, that shows how much BL and Phuz care about your full enjoyment of the system more so....

I have to say though, if you go with the Integra Research series, your LSi guaranteed to sing beatifully!

phuz

Originally posted by rickfaldo


p.s. I can't believe you guys are telling this person to give the Integra a try after telling me to "get an amp" What's up with that? His system with LSi15's will bring the Integra to its knees!

Well it's quite possible that you may have gotten a defective receiver, and he also may not require to volume that you do. So in the meanwhile untill he can get a seperate amp the integra may be just fine. (although starting out with seperates would be optimal)

I've run my whole system on my H/K AVR-510 at what I consider to be EFFIN LOUD, and it didn't have any problems other than the receiver running a little hot. I would expect the integra to do the same. Not sure how loud "half way" is though, but to me that seems pretty loud.

Rotel would be ok, but denon I think would present the same issues that the Integra did. B&K, Rotel, Arcam, NAD, and the higher end Marantz receivers would be my choices if I had to make a decision today.

rickfaldo

"I have to say though, if you go with the Integra Research series, your LSi guaranteed to sing beatifully! "


Polkatese:
Now you are talking big money amigo. Wish I were there but I have many other vices as well.

Hey Phuz: Wouldn't it be nice if my Integra was defective and the problem solved?....since they have a three year warranty, I still have two years left but somehow don't think defective is the problem. It is a fabulous receiver, just not enough power.
The half way I referred to I explained in an earlier post but in a nutshell, reference level 62 equates to 0-decibels, so at 50, I am below that level, while still plenty loud, not window breaking level. I have since programed the receiver for a lower max so my goofy friends can't crank it till it drops... The LSi's at that level were very "muddy!" Not what I expected when I bought five of them! My old RTA's sound better...but the LSi's are beautiful to look at....reminds me of a joke....never mind.
Thanks guys for the input. So far I still contemplating my next move. Didn't want to get involved in this constant upgrading game but what can you do?
Rick

F1nut

Rick,

What did you do with the RTA's?

F1

rickfaldo

Still gottem'
R

BeginnersLuck

Hey rickfaldo-

I'm not telling him to keep the Integra...but since he already bought it...I was just hoping he could try it out and maybe confirm some of the problems you're having before it gets returned. Maybe you just had a defective unit.

-BL

Mike&Natalie

Thank you all for your replies. In conversation with the HT store that is installing the system their comment was that the Integra they were installing was a DTR 7.3. Would this make a difference?

rickfaldo

Mike&Natalie:

Don't get me wrong, the Integra is a fine receiver. I just don't think it is be best one to be mated with Polk LSi series speakers or visa versa. The 7.3 has the same power specs as the 7.1, which is the one I own. Believe me, I did a ton of research before I bought my Integra but had no idea I was also going to buy LSi speakers within a few months of buying the Integra. Several people on this and other boards tried to talk me out of the LSi's with the Integra but once I saw the LSi's, my mind was made up, they are fabulous looking speakers and performance second to none, with the right power. But they are power hungry and I mean big time power. One would think 100 watts would be enough, but it isn't! What these speakers want, and these are Polks words, "lots of dedicated, clean power to make them sing"
Can you say separates? Too late for me but not for you. Read Mantis post on this site under "amps ..." He does a good job of explaining about separates versus receivers. If a receiver is your choice, look at Rotel. This seems the best mate to LSi's according to most on this site.
My experience with virtually the same components you are contemplating is not what it should be in my opinion. At higher volume levels, these speakers don't "sing." Most of the clarity gets lost in the mud....not to mention the clipping problem, which I would imagine is dangerous.
My 2 cents worth.
Good luck
Rick

Mike&Natalie

Could anyone be specific on which Rotel components would best work with the Polk LSi line? Thanks

rickfaldo

You didn't look for the post I referred to in my last post.....
So here it is, copied and pasted:

seperates and receivers..........ok

receivers,This a good to better(almost best)choice for the most part.They have tipically more features,connectability and flexability then most sepreates.They also take up less room.
Sound quality you get what you pay for in all levels.Flagship receievers of today can sound just as If not better then low end seperates.And offer much more flexability.
This isn't a cut and dry topic.

Seperates as noted yield the best overall performance.Sound quality is at it's best due to the fact of simplisity as noted above.Seperates power supplies,less interference,etc.But this all comes at a price.Not many seperates cost Less then receivers.

It really come down to personal preference.

I also can name a few flagship receiver that can challenge seperates in the same price class.

Lets go alittle deeper on just sound quality for a minute.Take the mighty Rotel rsx1065.At 2 grand,what seperate company can build better sounding 5.1 seperates?For sound quality?Answer is none.Your going to spend alittle more to achive that same level.Outlaw is probably the closest in price,and where can you go demo the 2?Now remember you have to factor in balanced or unbalanced interconnect to wire the 2 together(amp and pre).

I personally believe there are up's and downs to both sides of the fence.I choose to go one last time into the receiver/intergraded market at flagship level.I can say my falgship receiver can rivel the sound quality of my 2 channel seperate system.And in some things actually sound better.A home theater receiver(B&K avr307) and a plain 2 channel seperate rig(Rotel rb960bx,rc-971).

So the question is just this?What one is better for you?



Quote direct from "Mantis"
Good luck
Rick

Steve@3dai

Arcam AVR-200 receiver drives my full 5 channel LSi system just fine.

9, C, and FX

Current is what people should be worried about, not necessarily wattage

phuz

Originally posted by Steve@3dai
Arcam AVR-200 receiver drives my full 5 channel LSi system just fine.

9, C, and FX

Current is what people should be worried about, not necessarily wattage

Good point, but have you *really* cranked it steve? Have you tried to see if it will go into protection? Just curious.

Mike&Nat: Just about anything that Rotel makes will be fine. I would just avoid their lower end 60 watt amps.

BeginnersLuck

Here are Rotel's current models...
Rotel RSX-1065 is a 100W x 5 channel
Rotel RSX-1055 is a 75W x 5 channel

According to Rotel's website, the 1055 consumes more power and weighs the same as it 1065 counterpart...hmmm...I think they made a boo boo...

-BL

Mike&Natalie

Going to show how little we know at this time. We are looking to run 7 LSi speakers. I read references to 5 channels. What about 7 channels? Still Rotel? OR, seperates. We are open to what woould work better. Just do not wish to to waste initial cost of an Integra if it is not adequate. If seperates would be the better choice could anyone offer brand and model numbers?