Do you have a DAC in your rack?

HBombToo
HBombToo Posts: 5,256
edited June 2003 in Electronics
I am a firm believer in an outboard DAC. I have an Audio Research #5.

I want as many Opinions as possible.

the evile twin:lol:

BTW I will add vinal before DVD-A/SACD. 1K buck is the total budget. I will not exceed one grand. Tour has the TT so now I need a preamp with RIAA.

Is that right?

HBomb:confused:
***WAREMTAE***
Post edited by HBombToo on
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,986
    edited March 2003
    That IS right. Whats your proposed budget for a phono pre?

    An outboard DAC is on my list, just unforntunatley, not my 'short' one...

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited March 2003
    Would you like to audition my DAC? I have the original box. 2 XLR cables.

    You have much better listening skills. I will pay shipping. $750 US will be applied to insurance.

    H
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,986
    edited March 2003
    Better listening 'skills'?

    You ARE bombed. Keep your Dac in your rack Henry. ;)

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited March 2003
    and now you know the rest of the story. I figure at least 350 for the TT. 650 is remaining and I am looking for suggestions.
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  • joe logston
    joe logston Posts: 882
    edited March 2003
    yes i keep it there , yes have a aragon D2A-da converter with IPS,
    it gives real good detail in the highs and lows, cant live with out it.
    every one needs a dac in the rack
    russ you dont have one.
    . rt-7 mains
    rt-20p surounds
    cs-400i front center
    cs-350 ls rear center
    2 energy take 5, efects
    2- psw-650 , subs
    1- 15" audiosource sub

    lets all go to the next ces.
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  • brettw22
    brettw22 Posts: 7,623
    edited March 2003
    I know what an outboard DAC is (basically), but do you then have to have a no frills player? or can you even use a normal CD player with those things?
    comment comment comment comment. bitchy.
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,986
    edited March 2003
    You can use any player with a Digital out, as a transport only.

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited March 2003
    You can use anything from a cheap single disc player to a 400 disc mega changer to a high quality audiophile transport/CDP (and everything in between as long as it has a digital out - Like Russ said).
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited March 2003
    I've thought about getting a DAC but I really can't complain about the onboard DAC in my Dv-47a.
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
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  • brettw22
    brettw22 Posts: 7,623
    edited March 2003
    What's the price range for DAC's? Also, are they geared towards those that listen to a specific type of music?(if so, what type) I listen to techno/trance mostly...... They don't function with DVD players, true?
    comment comment comment comment. bitchy.
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  • jrausch
    jrausch Posts: 510
    edited March 2003
    FrankZ,


    We should hook up some time for beer and Demo's. I have a great 2/ch Lsi rig with a nice parasound DAC. I will be working for Soundtrack in the near future and would like to get some opinions on Pioneer elite in a home setting. Let me know if you’re down.
    Aurora, CO

    Brett,

    A good DAC makes everything sound good. I have mine patched into our satellite dish's toslink and the music stations sound incredible. Prices for a decent DAC start at around 350-400 and just go up fast from there. When you have the clean pre-amp and clean amp, it's time to move in the DAC. That sound your ultimately trying to get from your system can be had with a DAC in your rack.

    -Jer
    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it."
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  • gidrah
    gidrah Posts: 3,049
    edited March 2003
    http://www.scott-nixon.com/dac.htm
    Make it Funky! :)
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  • joe logston
    joe logston Posts: 882
    edited March 2003
    i've had mine for 12 yrs now,

    aragon D2A with external ips da converter its almost an antique
    works great
    . rt-7 mains
    rt-20p surounds
    cs-400i front center
    cs-350 ls rear center
    2 energy take 5, efects
    2- psw-650 , subs
    1- 15" audiosource sub

    lets all go to the next ces.
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited March 2003
    Originally posted by jrausch


    A good DAC makes everything sound good. I have mine patched into our satellite dish's toslink and the music stations sound incredible. -Jer

    I do this very same thing with my Direct TV Music channels. Its just like listening to a cd on good tracks. Whats most interesting is with the DAC I can hear flaws in the recordings...

    Good Stuff

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • brettw22
    brettw22 Posts: 7,623
    edited March 2003
    Does one DAC process sound from your CD, DVD, Tuner/Receiver all simultaneously?
    comment comment comment comment. bitchy.
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  • Steve@3dai
    Steve@3dai Posts: 983
    edited March 2003
    I use the DACs in my receiver. Same basic principle, except you guys have an external $400 box that does it. More than likely uses the same DACs that receivers or DVD players use, just more isolated.

    Also, you're introducing more interconnects which makes your audio more sensative to noise.

    Personally I think they're hard to justify.
    LSi 9/C/FX
    Arcam AVR-200
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  • jrausch
    jrausch Posts: 510
    edited March 2003
    For you non believer's. Here is an excerpt from a review on what will probably be my next DAC. These sold for 5k and can be had for less than 2k on the used market. Are outboard DAC's worth it? Read on. Go back to the dodson homepage for other reviews.
    The snobs can't say enough.

    http://www.dodsonaudio.com/ultimatecomponents.htm
    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it."
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  • Steve@3dai
    Steve@3dai Posts: 983
    edited March 2003
    Kinda funny how he puts his DVD-A through it.

    DVD-A out the SPDIF is 16/44.1. The copy protection doesn't allow the full 24/192 out the SPDIF, only the analog outputs of the player.

    More to come ;)
    LSi 9/C/FX
    Arcam AVR-200
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  • Steve@3dai
    Steve@3dai Posts: 983
    edited March 2003
    From a newsgroup post on the DMCA:

    "While all modern consumer audio (and DVD) players have digital outputs,
    to date, all of the digital outputs are disabled for high resolution audio data
    (SACD or DVD-A). Current SACD simply doesn't output anything with SACD
    media, altho they will output the PCM stream with 44.1/16 data. The DVD-A
    release was delayed as the members of the cartel try to find a suitable
    copy-prohibition scheme."
    LSi 9/C/FX
    Arcam AVR-200
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  • Steve@3dai
    Steve@3dai Posts: 983
    edited March 2003
    Originally posted by jrausch
    The snobs can't say enough.[/url]

    Yea, they also aren't paying for these items (well, in the reviewers case).

    I think you'll see the biggest advantage is in keeping the signal path ultra clean and clear of noise. That is where you are going to get the best sound out of your CDs. 1-bit Delta-Sigma converters and oversampling has been around for YEARS, so that's nothing new.

    That's just my opinion though, and the opinions of the audio engineers that I work with ;)
    LSi 9/C/FX
    Arcam AVR-200
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  • tonyv1
    tonyv1 Posts: 365
    edited March 2003
    I have an MSB Link DAC III w/ the 24/132 upsampling board installed. My Rotel RCD 951 is the transport. The Rotel has HDCD, but after comparing it to upsampling, I don't use it anymore.
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited March 2003
    I was going to try a dac in my rack but opted for the DV-47Ai instead. I can't say I'm sorry but then again, I still don't know what a dac would do for my CD player.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • freid
    freid Posts: 24
    edited March 2003
    Originally posted by madmax001
    I was going to try a dac in my rack but opted for the DV-47Ai instead.

    Hey Madmax,
    How would you rate the DV-47Ai for 2ch music.

    Thanks
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited March 2003
    The MSB product is very cool from an upgrade standpoint. Start with just typical redbook and upgrade as the bug hits.

    A very nice product also.

    The digital analog conversion is very important but as a side most external DACS have very high end clocks which reduce jitter. Jitter will kill audio quality.

    I'm glad the dac in a rack has caught on here...

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • Steve@3dai
    Steve@3dai Posts: 983
    edited March 2003
    I don't think jitter is a problem much anymore with modern decently priced equipment.

    IMO ;)
    LSi 9/C/FX
    Arcam AVR-200
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,986
    edited March 2003
    Lets talk about Jitter, and why or why it isn't an issue today.

    Sure, I've seen the $650 'Jitter Filters' to put in the loop with your transport and DAC, SOMEONE is using them. More Audio voodoo/doodoo, or a useable link in the chain?

    What IS Jitter, electronically?

    Cheers,
    Rooster
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • joe logston
    joe logston Posts: 882
    edited March 2003
    i think the dac players work better now days because of the better recordings i can play a old recording and i got to stop it right away, becaues it sounds so bad the dat just shows how bad it was recorded no wonder that every one liked lps better, now days it is a lot different the dat rules the better the recording the better the sound, dacs are just to good in revealing the bad along with the good.
    and on mine it haves a isolated power supply that helps alot, and you should look for that feature. keep the copacitors and transformers away from the prossecer. sorry jrausch but look at how close the prossecer is to the power supply on th dodson dat.
    . rt-7 mains
    rt-20p surounds
    cs-400i front center
    cs-350 ls rear center
    2 energy take 5, efects
    2- psw-650 , subs
    1- 15" audiosource sub

    lets all go to the next ces.
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  • joe logston
    joe logston Posts: 882
    edited March 2003
    they came up with jitter to sell more stuff in reality it was mosty the bad recordings
    . rt-7 mains
    rt-20p surounds
    cs-400i front center
    cs-350 ls rear center
    2 energy take 5, efects
    2- psw-650 , subs
    1- 15" audiosource sub

    lets all go to the next ces.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,753
    edited March 2003
    "Jitter is the imprecision in the timing of the discrete samples when converting from analogue to digital or vice-versa."

    It does have something to do with bad recordings, but that's not the whole story. Even on good recordings, jitter introduces noise and distortion into the signal. A real good high-end player will have better clocks than the cheaper players, but even some better players will benefit from an external DAC or a upgrade to a super clock.
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    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited March 2003
    Originally posted by RuSsMaN


    What IS Jitter, electronically?

    Cheers,
    Rooster

    Before I'm totally trashed because of sympathy pains for joe6pack I'll take a stab at this answer.

    A digital signal is nothing more than 1's and 0's but to transition from (0 to 1) or (1 to 0) is not perfect. In the ideal world it would look like a square wave but in reality there is is certain rise time or fall time for this to happen. Now this is where clocking circuit circuit comes into play. The clock if accurate enough will sample only highes and lows after the transition. If the clock drifts or wanders about its reference point we can lose accuracy of the sample and attempt to the pcm to pam at the wrong time. PCM is Pulse Code Modulation and PAM is Pulse Amplitude Modulation. The wandering is a product of inferior clocks and that is what the jitter bugs do is reclock the transmission path.

    This problem is common even in communications equippment. For example I order a DS3 from Sprint, (28 T1's) and if the reference clocks at the DS3 level are off the T1's will have high bit error rates. The measurement of this is called phase hits and jitter. The jitter actually causes the samples all the way down to the 64kbit channel level to miss infomation because its outside of the channel window that is expected.

    Hope I did not confuse the subject.:confused:

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
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