Matching SS or Tube Preamp For Mark Levinson Amp (Balanced Version?)-

megasat16

I am disappointed and a little confused. I've been trying to find a matching preamp for use with Mark Levinson ML335 for quite some time now. I've tried several preamps using SE connection but I couldn't find a synergy so far. It's very dynamic and very detailed sounding amp but I feel I am missing the manly voice (may be I need Manly Shrimp?:D) . I don't have Any Balanced Preamp to try at the moment so I thought Balanced Preamp is what I need.

What ya think? Do I need Balanced Preamp and what is the best bet to try? Money is tight and I want to keep the spending below 1500-2000 for the pre.

Ricardo

Have you considered the input impedance of the amp when looking for preamps? Many times overlooked and it's a critical parameter.

I am using an Audio Experience Balanced A2 SE tubed preamp and am very happy with it. It's made by a guy in Hong Kong. The non SE version goes for a little under $1,000, and the SE (adds Sonicaps, Cardas RCA's and Neutrix XLR's) runs for a little under $1,500. Check the Audiogon forum for some comments (you'll find good and bad).

Here's the non SE version:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1252076954&/Audio-Experience-Balanced-A2-f

danz1906

Try the Primare Pre-30 balanced pre-amp. Its very musical with good detail.
Used price on Audiogon within your price range.

Systems

Is the ML a fully balanced design from input to output like a Pass X series or Krell FPB? or does it just have a balanced input which then gets summed to unbalanced?


If it's true fully balanced from in-out then the Aleph P and GFP750 are prime candidates.

megasat16

Ricardo wrote: »

Have you considered the input impedance of the amp when looking for preamps? Many times overlooked and it's a critical parameter.

That's what I've been thinking yesterday. The impedance mismatch between pre and amp when using SE input and I think I should use Balanced Input for full potential of this amp.

The input impedance stated in the User Manual is 50Kohm for SE and 100Kohm for balanced mode so it's typical impedance that can be driven with most SE preamp. But the gain is LOW so if I crank the preamp too much, the amp sounds like Hercules Shouting near my ears. If I don't crank it too much, the amp sounds like a wimpy old man whispering near his death bed.

I know I could use a passive pre with it if I wanted to use SE. But I think Balanced Input is what it's really intended to be used with.

Ricardo wrote: »

I am using an Audio Experience Balanced A2 SE tubed preamp and am very happy with it. It's made by a guy in Hong Kong. The non SE version goes for a little under $1,000, and the SE (adds Sonicaps, Cardas RCA's and Neutrix XLR's) runs for a little under $1,500. Check the Audiogon forum for some comments (you'll find good and bad).

Here's the non SE version:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1252076954&/Audio-Experience-Balanced-A2-f

Thanks! I am reading about it and needs to consider it. You heard it before?

I am thinking PASS pre or Classe or even ARC.

megasat16

danz1906 wrote: »

Try the Primare Pre-30 balanced pre-amp. Its very musical with good detail.
Used price on Audiogon within your price range.

Thanks Dan! There is no pre listed for Primare on Agon right now so I'll keep it in mind. :cool:

megasat16

GV#27 wrote: »

Is the ML a fully balanced design from input to output like a Pass X series or Krell FPB? or does it just have a balanced input which then gets summed to unbalanced?


If it's true fully balanced from in-out then the Aleph P and GFP750 are prime candidates.

This is true balanced design and I am thinking seriously about Aleph P or other Pass Pre among Classe, and Luxman (4K+), Accuphase (4K+), Levinson and TACT.

May be it's time to DIY the balanced version of BOZ? :D

Systems

megasat16 wrote: »

May be it's time to DIY the balanced version of BOZ? :D

It's fairly simple but you'll have to alot the biggest portion of the budget for good pots if you want to operate it balanced.
http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/balzenpre.pdf

heiney9

Here you go Mega.............first and last pre you'll need. That was easy!!!!!! Next?

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1254239465&/Pass-Labs-Aleph-P-balanced-rem

H9

megasat16

GV#27 wrote: »

It's fairly simple but you'll have to alot the biggest portion of the budget for good pots if you want to operate it balanced.
http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/balzenpre.pdf

If I can't find a good pre for it, I may as well build one to try.

heiney9 wrote: »

Here you go Mega.............first and last pre you'll need. That was easy!!!!!! Next?

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1254239465&/Pass-Labs-Aleph-P-balanced-rem

H9

Thanks! I saw that one on Agon for a few days already and giving much thought about it. I am also thinking some newer Pass Pre than Aleph P.

beemer

I've had great synergy with a Levinson 336 and the following tube pre's:

BAT VK3i (slightly veiled sound, not as open as it's bigger brothers)
BAT VK50
BAT VK50SE (I'm not a huge fan of the 6H30 tube though) The VK50 with it's 6922's was more liquid to my ears.
ARC Ref 1
CAT SL-1

The VK3i, VK50, VK50SE and ARC Ref 1 I owned, I also owned for a while an ARC SP11. While a highly regarded vintage pre, I found it had a layer of sheen with not only the 336, but also a 333 and a pair of Classe M-1000 monoblocks I owned at the time as well.

I borrowed the SL-1 Cat for a month while it's owner was vacationing. This was a satisfying piece as well.

Out of all the above, to my ears the VK50 was most pleasing, however the Ref 1 had a more open sound. A toss up for my favorite between these 2.

Speakers used here were IRS-Beta, Aerial 10t, Aerial 20t.

Best,

Paul

megasat16

Thanks Paul for chiming in your experience with ML amps. You have (had) a very impressive list of gears I could only drool for.

As much as I would like to try BAT VK50 and ARC Ref 1, I have to admit that the limitations of budget won't let me go near them.

I will have to look for something under 2K tag or wait till I could spend on a better and more expensive Pre or sell the ML335 and think something else. I am building ML system to use with the next speaker project I am trying to build - a high efficiency Line Array with planar drivers.

The Pipedream must be a very impressive speaker when using with ML33, it can make one ear's bleed easily?

I thought I am a little nut when I put a pair of Carver Platinum MKIV in the bedroom and the wife said I am crazy. I think I can tell her now that you have a pair of IRS-Beta in your bedroom so I am not alone putting Big Speakers in a bedroom.

I am a little curious why and how you become a Proud Member of BOZO list and who is an elected President there? :cool:

beemer wrote: »

I've had great synergy with a Levinson 336 and the following tube pre's:

BAT VK3i (slightly veiled sound, not as open as it's bigger brothers)
BAT VK50
BAT VK50SE (I'm not a huge fan of the 6H30 tube though) The VK50 with it's 6922's was more liquid to my ears.
ARC Ref 1
CAT SL-1

The VK3i, VK50, VK50SE and ARC Ref 1 I owned, I also owned for a while an ARC SP11. While a highly regarded vintage pre, I found it had a layer of sheen with not only the 336, but also a 333 and a pair of Classe M-1000 monoblocks I owned at the time as well.

I borrowed the SL-1 Cat for a month while it's owner was vacationing. This was a satisfying piece as well.

Out of all the above, to my ears the VK50 was most pleasing, however the Ref 1 had a more open sound. A toss up for my favorite between these 2.

Speakers used here were IRS-Beta, Aerial 10t, Aerial 20t.

Best,

Paul

beemer

megasat16 wrote: »

Thanks Paul for chiming in your experience with ML amps. You have (had) a very impressive list of gears I could only drool for.

As much as I would like to try BAT VK50 and ARC Ref 1, I have to admit that the limitations of budget won't let me go near them.

I will have to look for something under 2K tag or wait till I could spend on a better and more expensive Pre or sell the ML335 and think something else. I am building ML system to use with the next speaker project I am trying to build - a high efficiency Line Array with planar drivers.

The Pipedream must be a very impressive speaker when using with ML33, it can make one ear's bleed easily?

I thought I am a little nut when I put a pair of Carver Platinum MKIV in the bedroom and the wife said I am crazy. I think I can tell her now that you have a pair of IRS-Beta in your bedroom so I am not alone putting Big Speakers in a bedroom.

I am a little curious why and how you become a Proud Member of BOZO list and who is an elected President there? :cool:

Hello Megasat:

I'm glad you find my impressions useful.....thanks..

The problem with staying fully balanced on the home high-end side is truly balanced equipment is costly. Some would say the 335 sounds best single-ended, however your experience says otherwise. You suggest you may build your own.....this may be the best route and the self-satisfaction you'll get will be fulfilling.

In my experiences with Levinson, none of their amps sound like an old man on his death bed wheezing, that's a great analogy! The integrated ML came out with a few years back was rather controversial however....I never heard it, so cannot add fuel to the fire there.

Levinson to many is non-involving....and I can see merit to that point of view. In the past I have purchased equipment based on a small percentage of the whole sound...in other words let's say I liked that the high end or the midrange was prominent and it drew me in.....however as time went on most equipment that I had bought due to impressions based on one aspect.....that same aspect that initially drew me in over a period of time would be the thing that would push me away from a component.

I would never claim Levinson as the be-all-end all, however for me the ML pieces I own have been here for a while and what keeps them is that they do nothing to draw me in or push me away...to my ears I find them neutral. That's me though....I have a good friend who cannot bear to listen to my 32 preamp....he finds it "dark".

I believe English is not your first language, so describing the Pipedreams as "ear-bleeding" is not my conclusion. I love them. They do everything I want them to, and in a big way. Another friend says about my system with female vocals: "The woman singing sounds much larger than life" I agree...the thing does sound larger than life, however I like a BIG sound and I've got it.

You have a pair of Carver Platinums in your bedroom.....that's awesome. Recently I acquired a pair of Carver Amazing Silvers, and I am finding these much to my liking. IMHO, they live up to their name "amazing" unlike my experiences with other Carver products in the past.

As to the BOZO list, I would prefer to speak about others in a positive, rather than negative note, thus I will ask that you accept this. I will say only that there are some here who judge without basis, and leave it at that.

Best,

Paul

megasat16

beemer wrote: »

Hello Megasat:

I'm glad you find my impressions useful.....thanks..

The problem with staying fully balanced on the home high-end side is truly balanced equipment is costly. Some would say the 335 sounds best single-ended, however your experience says otherwise. You suggest you may build your own.....this may be the best route and the self-satisfaction you'll get will be fulfilling.

Levinson to many is non-involving....and I can see merit to that point of view. In the past I have purchased equipment based on a small percentage of the whole sound...in other words let's say I liked that the high end or the midrange was prominent and it drew me in.....however as time went on most equipment that I had bought due to impressions based on one aspect.....that same aspect that initially drew me in over a period of time would be the thing that would push me away from a component.

I would never claim Levinson as the be-all-end all, however for me the ML pieces I own have been here for a while and what keeps them is that they do nothing to draw me in or push me away...to my ears I find them neutral. That's me though....I have a good friend who cannot bear to listen to my 32 preamp....he finds it "dark".

I believe English is not your first language, so describing the Pipedreams as "ear-bleeding" is not my conclusion. I love them. They do everything I want them to, and in a big way. Another friend says about my system with female vocals: "The woman singing sounds much larger than life" I agree...the thing does sound larger than life, however I like a BIG sound and I've got it.


As to the BOZO list, I would prefer to speak about others in a positive, rather than negative note, thus I will ask that you accept this. I will say only that there are some here who judge without basis, and leave it at that.

Best,

Paul

Hi Paul,

I am not dissing the Pipedreams in the previous post. I just thought the High Efficiency Speakers like it paired to Mark Levinson 33 can go very high SPL so one's ears can bleed. Of coz, I understand it's not what you wanted from those 80K speakers. I meant it must be a very nice sounding speaker and can also go very loud when paired to ML 33.

English is one of the many languages I speaks (at least I used to). I speaks many languages fluently at one time but it seems my fluency in languages including English is lousy nowadays.

I was an EE (decades ago) and used to involved in Industrial High Power Amplifier Applications and I've extensively studied the effects of impedance matching and gain / bandwidth matching between amplifiers and signal sources.

What I was telling about ML335 amp sounds like a wimpy old man whispering on his death bed in low volume level (with SE connection) is to simply describe the amplifier requirements for higher level of input signal at low volume and the impedance curve (not just the input impedance) demands higher signal at low volume and expects lower signal (than most SE pre provides at higher volume). As I have mentioned earlier, I think I can use a passive Buffer Preamp between Pre and ML335. But adding another Passive components will deteriorate small signals at low volume so I think it's best to use a good matching Pre-amp with it.

As for the ML335, it's probably my best bet to use a matching Pre from ML such as 380 or 38 and takes most of the guess work out from the chain. Or I could simply try with a different and more sensitive speakers to listen at low volume level. I don't have any intended speaker to use with ML335 at this time as I intend to build one myself.

But as far as I can tell about my limited experience with Levinson amp, it is non involving (which is a good thing) but it's also very analytical sounding amp to my ears. This will probably change when I have a chance to try with a good matching (balanced) Preamp.

Cheers,
James

beemer

The Pipedream mid/tweeter columns are fairly high efficiency, I found that an MC275 Series IV McIntosh drove them, however it lacked the excitement and immediacy that the 33H provided. The tube magic with the McIntosh was very strong though. A tough call, however for me the 33H's won in this application. The 33's were a complete non-contender on the array columns....this pairing was not pleasant to me at all.....however on the woofers bass definition and speed are wonderful. I have plans to try a few other amps on the woofers. I wouldn't mind something that will please my ears at less cost....I could send the 33's off to a new home, and pocket the difference.......:D

Goes to show that without trying, you cannot predict what will shine and what will bring the rain when it comes to synergy with audio.

Best,

Paul

megasat16

beemer wrote: »

Goes to show that without trying, you cannot predict what will shine and what will bring the rain when it comes to synergy with audio.

Best,

Paul

Yep, Absolutely! Synergy is a **** and ML is giving me a hard time with it. Well, there are lots of gears to try. It's a shame I have too little time and too little money.

beemer wrote: »

The Pipedream mid/tweeter columns are fairly high efficiency, I found that an MC275 Series IV McIntosh drove them, however it lacked the excitement and immediacy that the 33H provided. The tube magic with the McIntosh was very strong though. A tough call, however for me the 33H's won in this application. The 33's were a complete non-contender on the array columns....this pairing was not pleasant to me at all.....however on the woofers bass definition and speed are wonderful. I have plans to try a few other amps on the woofers. I wouldn't mind something that will please my ears at less cost....I could send the 33's off to a new home, and pocket the difference.......:D


Paul

It's the nice thing about High Efficiency Speakers - they don't mind to be used with lower powered Tube Gears. But with synergy and with certain equipments, I believe the so-called "Tube Magic" can happens in SS gear with fineness, accuracy and Power to drive any speakers for high dynamic passages in music.

lakesailor

I run a Levinson #38 pre-amp and can strongly recommend it; more so when paired with a Levinson amp; although I run mono’s and have not tried a 335 like yours.

megasat16

lakesailor wrote: »

I run a Levinson #38 pre-amp and can strongly recommend it; more so when paired with a Levinson amp; although I run mono’s and have not tried a 335 like yours.

Thanks! Using ML pre with ML amp will reduce a lot of trial and error for me. However, the sonic from ML pairing may not be my liking. I have to decide whether to sell the ML335 or buy the ML pre.

I realize one thing - ML335 does not like any pre with Step Attenuator (even if the gain is 3db for each step) for the volume POT. The Pre must have regular Linear POT.

lakesailor

megasat16 wrote: »

Thanks! Using ML pre with ML amp will reduce a lot of trial and error for me. However, the sonic from ML pairing may not be my liking. I have to decide whether to sell the ML335 or buy the ML pre.

I realize one thing - ML335 does not like any pre with Step Attenuator (even if the gain is 3db for each step) for the volume POT. The Pre must have regular Linear POT.

I am generally always very open to system experimentation; however I am so enthralled with the Levinson pairing I really question any further experimentation in this particular system. Everything is just working perfectly for me on all levels and that is very rare (for me).

I have historically not been a Levinson fan; but with this pairing and speaking with other owners of Levinson you do get that unique and distinctive sound that either works for you; or it does not. For me it works. Let us know what you end up finding. Good luck.

megasat16

lakesailor wrote: »

Let us know what you end up finding. Good luck.

I just want to bring some good news to this thread. I just got a ML 38 for the ML335. It's New to me and still looks NEW. I'll know how that makes ML sing. If it works well, I see ML380s in the near future.

Thanks everyone for chiming in with your expertise.

Systems

Congrats mega.Now we need pic's, preferably topless ones.;):D

megasat16

Thanks GV! I hope you are not asking my topless pictures...:o

I also don't think Mark Levinson will expose his top body parts for our enjoyment. But I will post topless pics ML335 and not so topless pics of ML-38 soon.

Systems

megasat16 wrote: »

I hope you are not asking my topless pictures...:o

Well no offence but I was thinking the new pre.

I also don't think Mark Levinson will expose his top body parts for our enjoyment.

:eek:But his ex wife Kim Cattrel but be OK no?:D

megasat16

GV#27 wrote: »

Well no offence but I was thinking the new pre.
:eek:But his ex wife Kim Cattrel but be OK no?:D

Kim? Hmmm...Would be one Google Search Away.

megasat16

This pic was taken during dusting the top cover. I could remove the driver boards and get to the innards but I thought I should probably leave it alone.

megasat16

Initial listening impression of the ML335 paired to No.# 38 preamp is pretty good. It's the best combo I've heard for the ML335. Gain / Bandwidth / Volume Ration is superb and I think it'd be hard to find any other pre with this very fine matching. The music is very detailed at all listening levels and very revealing yet not involving. It's very close to natural but still not the best I've heard. I think I need more power from the ML335. So, I think I am seeing No. # 380s and another 335 or 336 in the future.

lakesailor

megasat16 wrote: »

Initial listening impression of the ML335 paired to No.# 38 preamp is pretty good. It's the best combo I've heard for the ML335. Gain / Bandwidth / Volume Ration is superb and I think it'd be hard to find any other pre with this very fine matching. The music is very detailed at all listening levels and very revealing yet not involving. It's very close to natural but still not the best I've heard. I think I need more power from the ML335. So, I think I am seeing No. # 380s and another 335 or 336 in the future.

Congrat’s on getting the # 38…it is a very sweet unit and as you are discovering pairs up very nicely with the ML amps. Surprised that you are finding you need more power given that you have a 335. Just as an experiment have you tried a different pre-amp. ?

One of the things I find with the # 38 is that you end up living in the middle volume range for upper moderate listening….you almost need to hit ¾ volume before you start to cross the “loud” threshold. This can give a perception of a lack of power on the part of the amp; however I have found it is mostly the very well articulated (almost to well articulated ) volume control range on the # 38.

I have not tried a 380 or 380S to see if it is any different, but for the money I remain very happy with the # 38. It really brings out all that “Levinson” became famous for.

megasat16

lakesailor wrote: »

Congrat’s on getting the # 38…it is a very sweet unit and as you are discovering pairs up very nicely with the ML amps. Surprised that you are finding you need more power given that you have a 335. Just as an experiment have you tried a different pre-amp. ?

One of the things I find with the # 38 is that you end up living in the middle volume range for upper moderate listening….you almost need to hit ¾ volume before you start to cross the “loud” threshold. This can give a perception of a lack of power on the part of the amp; however I have found it is mostly the very well articulated (almost to well articulated ) volume control range on the # 38.

I have not tried a 380 or 380S to see if it is any different, but for the money I remain very happy with the # 38. It really brings out all that “Levinson” became famous for.

Thanks! I am very happy with the purchase of ML # 38 also. As for power requirements, ML335 has enough juice for LSi25s I tried. But I think the more is the better. I've listened to the volume at 80% of max volume and it gets really loud but the ML335 is coping well.

I'll soon be moving the levinsons to drive a pair of Carver ALS Paltinum and there's where the real test begins. I know more power is needed for the ALS ribbons. But these Levinsons are not to be used with the Carver ALS. It's for testing purposes only. When I decided to build a levinson system, I also have DIY speaker in mind. When the DIY speaker takes shape, I'll either build some Class A amps or just buy more Levinson Amps (ML335 or ML336). The DIY Speakers will be utilizing active XO so three amps is the minimum I need.

lakesailor

megasat16 wrote: »

Thanks! I am very happy with the purchase of ML # 38 also. As for power requirements, ML335 has enough juice for LSi25s I tried. But I think the more is the better. I've listened to the volume at 80% of max volume and it gets really loud but the ML335 is coping well.

I'll soon be moving the levinsons to drive a pair of Carver ALS Paltinum and there's where the real test begins. I know more power is needed for the ALS ribbons. But these Levinsons are not to be used with the Carver ALS. It's for testing purposes only. When I decided to build a levinson system, I also have DIY speaker in mind. When the DIY speaker takes shape, I'll either build some Class A amps or just buy more Levinson Amps (ML335 or ML336). The DIY Speakers will be utilizing active XO so three amps is the minimum I need.

Don’t be afraid to reserve judgement. I heartily encourage you to try your Levinson setup on a set of Carver Plat’s…seriously I do. Trust me when I say you will be more than surprised at the results. I will stay “mum” until you have had a chance to play first. Been there done that. You my friend are in for a most pleasant surprise

megasat16

I guess there is no shame in saying that I am also a Carver Fan. I have two pairs of Carver Plats (one MKIV and one just Plats). The MKIV version is a little easier load than the Plat and the Original Amazing, I've tried the ML335 with it in the past. At that time, I didn't have Levinson Preamp so the sound is not up to my liking. I am taking your words to try the Carvers with Levinsons and looking forward to a pleasant surprise.

As for DIY speakers, I already bought half of the drivers I need and I just have to find time to really start doing it.

reeltrouble1

from what I am reading you should go back to the Doc and tell em that the prescription did not work.

RT1--Tubes Rule.