Amp Questions - 1.2TLs

beemer

motorstereo wrote: »

Hi Paul; Glad to hear that mr namecaller's thoughts are meaningless to you as well.

When I first had my polks and before the recap I did in fact have my strombergs hooked up to the polks for a brief period. I was not impressed in the least and didn't give them a second chance after the recap. Maybe this winter when I get some free time I'll give it another shot as it's a major hassle to swap them out. I'm driving a pair of vintage infinitys Q3's with the strombergs right now and that's the best I've ever heard that pairing sound.

And to the prez and the comment about "pissing on pro amps". You're more than welcome to come over to my humble abode anytime and piss on my pro amps. I'll make sure and have them warmed up and running when you swing by and you can piss to your heart's content. 3 Packerville Rd. Plainfield Ct. awaits your arrival.
Another proud and honored member of the bozo club.

The "prez" has the honor of being the only person on my ignore list here as of today. It's all good!

Best,

Paul

hearingimpared

motorstereo wrote: »

3 Packerville Rd. Plainfield Ct. awaits your arrival.
Another proud and honored member of the bozo club.

Only a bozo would post his address on an internet forum.:rolleyes:

motorstereo

hearingimpared wrote: »

Only a bozo would post his address on an internet forum.:rolleyes:

Do you really think this is my actual address?

hearingimpared

motorstereo wrote: »

Do you really think this is my actual address?

Another tough talking, tough guy behind a keyboard.

snow

Well I will throw in my two cents into the mix. First off I think egos have got in the way of what could have been an otherwise civil intelligent discussion.

There has been good points tossed out by all. It has been proven that damping factor does indeed play a part in controlling woofers but how big a role and is it audible? Little things like the resistance of the speaker cables can change the DF substantially. According to this article very little audible difference if any can be heard.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/damping-factor-effects-on-system-response


People have said that their amps such as a Nakamichi PA-7 with low DF or a low WPC amp such as the Aleph sounds great with their SDA's and I personally know of many who run strictly run tube amps with great success on there SDA's.

My personal belief is that the biggest factor in making these SDA's sound really good is voltage and or current and lot's of it. If you have an amp that can recover very quickly after having to reproduce a bass note it will sound crisper than one that doesnt. I think the reason why you like the sound of the pro amp Paul it is capable of producing large amounts of voltage without much sag.


Most "Pro" amps can do this all day long without burning up but usally there is a loss in fidelity they sound rather harsh and unrefined because the design elements are not the same as a "Hi Fi" amp.

There are trade offs in anything it is a lot harder and more expensive to produce an amp that is capable of low impedance loads and very high quality sound especially with high WPC numbers.

I know you feel that your QSC amp sounds good with your SDA's and as I said earlier bully for you. There are others that prefer the sound of tube amps with their SDA's perhaps because the clipping is softer and the distortion is pleasurable. I am not sure there is a right or wrong way to enjoy your SDA's.

I of course have my own preference I like the clarity detail and sheer power of the Sunfire 300 x 2 it is capable of any load that I will ever throw at it coupled with a high quality tube preamp it is the best of both worlds.

The funny thing is that it is so easy to get off track online things are easily taken out of context, people that we argue with online in real life if we met them we would be the best of friends. I have a friend that moved away a couple of years ago and we constantly disagreed on many things audio but the fact remains the next day we were back at it again. Sometimes he was right, sometimes I was, sometimes we simply couldndt agree at all but we both shared the love of audio and I wish the **** was back here so I could show him my new toys and fight with him some more.

Everyone loses when we have these fallouts the forum loses, the individual players lose by putting each other on ignore so I suggest a group hug.

Geez who would have ever thought Snow as a peace keeper :eek:



REGARDS SNOW

motorstereo

hearingimpared wrote: »

Another tough talking, tough guy behind a keyboard.

Wrong again. No toughness here and nothing to prove. I'm just a simple man with a simple amp to pee on.:D

beemer

snow wrote: »

Well I will throw in my two cents into the mix. First off I think egos have got in the way of what could have been an otherwise civil intelligent discussion.

There has been good points tossed out by all. It has been proven that damping factor does indeed play a part in controlling woofers but how big a role and is it audible? Little things like the resistance of the speaker cables can change the DF substantially. According to this article very little audible difference if any can be heard.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/damping-factor-effects-on-system-response


People have said that their amps such as a Nakamichi PA-7 with low DF or a low WPC amp such as the Aleph sounds great with their SDA's and I personally know of many who run strictly run tube amps with great success on there SDA's.

My personal belief is that the biggest factor in making these SDA's sound really good is voltage and or current and lot's of it. If you have an amp that can recover very quickly after having to reproduce a bass note it will sound crisper than one that doesnt. I think the reason why you like the sound of the pro amp Paul it is capable of producing large amounts of voltage without much sag.


Most "Pro" amps can do this all day long without burning up but usally there is a loss in fidelity they sound rather harsh and unrefined because the design elements are not the same as a "Hi Fi" amp.

There are trade offs in anything it is a lot harder and more expensive to produce an amp that is capable of low impedance loads and very high quality sound especially with high WPC numbers.

I know you feel that your QSC amp sounds good with your SDA's and as I said earlier bully for you. There are others that prefer the sound of tube amps with their SDA's perhaps because the clipping is softer and the distortion is pleasurable. I am not sure there is a right or wrong way to enjoy your SDA's.

I of course have my own preference I like the clarity detail and sheer power of the Sunfire 300 x 2 it is capable of any load that I will ever throw at it coupled with a high quality tube preamp it is the best of both worlds.

The funny thing is that it is so easy to get off track online things are easily taken out of context, people that we argue with online in real life if we met them we would be the best of friends. I have a friend that moved away a couple of years ago and we constantly disagreed on many things audio but the fact remains the next day we were back at it again. Sometimes he was right, sometimes I was, sometimes we simply couldndt agree at all but we both shared the love of audio and I wish the **** was back here so I could show him my new toys and fight with him some more.

Everyone loses when we have these fallouts the forum loses, the individual players lose by putting each other on ignore so I suggest a group hug.

Geez who would have ever thought Snow as a peace keeper :eek:



REGARDS SNOW

You are once again, a very sensible guy. Your thoughts are spot-on.

Unfortunately F1nut shall remain on my ignore list. Once folks start resorting to terms like "idiot" and such their credibility goes away for me, regardless of post count or "title".

I have little patience for those who cannot conduct a civil conversation, especially when they have no direct experience with the equipment I suggested, or even show the willingness to try it, however this is not my loss.

I do like this forum and the great majority of the good folks who post here.

Best,

Paul

F1nut

snow wrote: »

Everyone loses when we have these fallouts the forum loses, the individual players lose by putting each other on ignore so I suggest a group hug.

Geez who would have ever thought Snow as a peace keeper :eek:

That is kinda funny.

Tell ya what, you let me know when the BOZO twins have admitted they are wrong, have apologized and I'll think about it.

snow

It's a good thing I am not a judge and the 3 of you arent in my courtroom, I would have to sentence you all to 72hrs of the all time worst 100 rap songs played continously at full volume with crappy earphones duct taped to your heads. Click on the pic for the full effect



REGARDS SNOW

dudeinaroom

snow wrote: »

...........
Geez who would have ever thought Snow as a peace keeper :eek:



REGARDS SNOW

Me. You are definitely an awesome member, who is generous, helpful, full of insight, and put up with my punk butt post.


another thing to look at on those amps would be slew rate, I'd imagine those proamps have a pretty high slew rate.

later,
dude

heiney9

FTR, the damping factor of the Aleph 30 is 100. No issues with sloppy, loose bass no overhang, etc.

Pro amps are NOT musical at all, IMO. They may have very low measured distortion, but they usually (not always) use heavy amounts negative feedback to remain linear and achieve what appears to be an important low distortion figure (not a good thing). Small amounts of NFB can be ok depending on the design but most important are the gain devices and the amount of gains stages used in a given design. Most Pro amps have 5-7 or more gain stages and use much cheaper gain devices, not a good thing for accurate audio reproduction. Power supply is another area Pro-amps don;t really have to pay attention to, because again they aren;t designing and manufacturing for the best possible audio reproduction.

Here's a great article that touches on the importance of linearity and the use of NFB.

http://passlabs.com/pdf/articles/distortion_and_feedback.pdf

H9

beemer

snow wrote: »

It's a good thing I am not a judge and the 3 of you arent in my courtroom, I would have to sentence you all to 72hrs of the all time worst 100 rap songs played continously at full volume with crappy earphones duct taped to your heads. Click on the pic for the full effect
REGARDS SNOW

Forgive me on passing the rap experience.

Best,

Paul

mmadden28

Forgive the newb question here, but I wonder what effect the passive radiator has on the damping factor? Or even in another speaker with a ported enclosure (LSi9). I would imagine it falls somewhere into that Qm figure.


On another note, I just read through that article on Damping factor and found the final quote interesting. Not so much for its content but the realization of technology.

"Can any reader of Wireless World point out any error in this argument? If it is true, there is very little gained by attempting to achieve excessively low output resistances."

F. Langford Smith,
Sydney, Australia
August 1947

This was obviously not posted on an internet forum, but a magazine article. In 1947, how long did it take to go from editing to press to distribution for a magazine? Then for the readers to point out an error, if any (along with whatever other time it woudl take for the readers to research--no Google search then), and write a letter, mail it back, go through editing (and likely censorship or at least editing for brevity), then again to press and on to distribution.
What I mean to say is, although the internet and its many forums can cause many frustrations with communications, it certainly has its real time merits for timely discussions. :cool:

dbnh

Just read through this post and am going to sidestep to the main issue re: amp recommendations.

I use, on my 1Cs, a pair of Odyssey Extreme Mono amps with excellent results. (I think George Daniel considered at one point trying the Odyssey amps - please do not hesitate to point out the errors of my ways if my memory is faulty, George.) Years ago I used an NAD 2200PE amp, but it's not doing the Odyssey monos any favors mentioning them in the same sentence, since the Odyssey Extreme monos completely outclassed / trounced the older NAD amp; however, the NAD was nice for the price, and perhaps it would be an interesting listen if the NAD's caps and other parts were upgraded. I note I use a DIY non-common ground IC with the amps.

A bit of tube-related comment: I temporarily paired an older Fisher 800B receiver with the 1Cs, but found it to be an unwise match re: speakers seemed woefully underpowered. Still, a tube-ophile might love the 22 tubes the Fisher brings to the equation. :cool: I cannot comment about other tube equipment with the SDA Polks, but trust that some listeners have had extremely satisfactory pairings with tubes.

To each their own - there's lots of ways to get to your own personal audio nirvana.

heiney9

dbhn, I assume you are using an AI-1 cable?

dbnh

heiney9 wrote: »

dbhn, I assume you are using an AI-1 cable?

Yes. I had someone make me one of the varieties with a larger transformer in it. Not sure exactly what parts he used beside part of the stock IC.

reeltrouble1

well, as someone who has years of personal experience with both types of gear I would certainly never use pro gear in my hi-fi rig, of course I would never use my hi-fi gear in my gig rig. the damping factor mentioned here would be useful with HT subwoofers, however, this is one place where I do rather advocate the use of Ice as musicality is not a priority.

I will also support my old friend F1, we need hardcore members who tell it like it is and if your baby gets called ugly then it does, you don't have to like it but that does not mean there are no walls of bad sound out there, to say pro gear sucks for hi-fi is spot on.

RT1

george daniel

dbnh wrote: »

Just read through this post and am going to sidestep to the main issue re: amp recommendations.

I use, on my 1Cs, a pair of Odyssey Extreme Mono amps with excellent results. (I think George Daniel considered at one point trying the Odyssey amps - please do not hesitate to point out the errors of my ways if my memory is faulty, George.) Years ago I used an NAD 2200PE amp, but it's not doing the Odyssey monos any favors mentioning them in the same sentence, since the Odyssey Extreme monos completely outclassed / trounced the older NAD amp; however, the NAD was nice for the price, and perhaps it would be an interesting listen if the NAD's caps and other parts were upgraded. I note I use a DIY non-common ground IC with the amps.

A bit of tube-related comment: I temporarily paired an older Fisher 800B receiver with the 1Cs, but found it to be an unwise match re: speakers seemed woefully underpowered. Still, a tube-ophile might love the 22 tubes the Fisher brings to the equation. :cool: I cannot comment about other tube equipment with the SDA Polks, but trust that some listeners have had extremely satisfactory pairings with tubes.

To each their own - there's lots of ways to get to your own personal audio nirvana.

I eventually had to build a dreadnought with my latest mono's(Odyssey),,as they were not common ground,,anyway,,sold all of it and went tubed. My brother still has his mono's with a Dreadnought and seems to work very well,,but I think that he's contemplating tubes.I do know that Klaus can,and will build/modify his mono's so that they can power SDA's without the AI-1,,matter of fact one of our members is doing so,,Klaus built him a cable to connect the two amps together,and they have been doing well for about two years.,,,Whew

beemer

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

well, as someone who has years of personal experience with both types of gear I would certainly never use pro gear in my hi-fi rig, of course I would never use my hi-fi gear in my gig rig. the damping factor mentioned here would be useful with HT subwoofers, however, this is one place where I do rather advocate the use of Ice as musicality is not a priority.

I will also support my old friend F1, we need hardcore members who tell it like it is and if your baby gets called ugly then it does, you don't have to like it but that does not mean there are no walls of bad sound out there, to say pro gear sucks for hi-fi is spot on.

RT1

Thanks for your input.

I have yet to have one poster that has had actual experience with the PLX 3402 besides myself chime in. Generalizations that all pro gear sucks are fine, however your brush is broad. As much as I like this forum, there are many closed-minded people here, like it or not.

I put more creedence in any forum to someone who has actually heard the gear in question rather than speculation. There are many poor components, not just in the Pro audio world. Many folks post here that pro gear sucks, however none come forward and say: "I heard amp **** driving speaker ****** and it didn't sound good". To me broad generalizations mean little and carry even less weight than any post with specific listening impressions. It appears that if I were to suggest the world was round here in this forum there would be a slew of cohorts chime in and say it was flat. It's all good. Friends are friends, however I prefer the view of the lead dog, rather than that of those behind.

I just sold 3 B&K ST-140M monoblocks to a forum member elsewhere. He was using a Nakamichi PA-7 to drive a Pair of Dahlquist DQ-30's. The ST-140M DF is 180,the PA-7 60. Specs for the B&K ST-140M monoblocks may be found here:

http://www.bkcomp.com/fileadmin/content/content_products/manuals/Past/Amp/ST140M.pdf

I quote him below from a post regarding his actual experience with the ST140M's a few days ago:

Paul:

I finally got around to hooking them up last night and they are sweet! They really opened up the DQ's and seem to have added some warmth to the mids and much better bass extension. Suffice to say that I love them!

He is now looking to sell his PA-7. If any forum member here is looking for such a beast around the CT. area, PM me and I can provide his contact info.

I learned many years ago to never say never with audio. The strangest combinations sometimes yield the best results.

Paul

me_myself_I

beemer wrote: »

Thanks for your input.

I put more creedence in any forum to someone who has actually heard the gear in question rather than speculation. There are many poor components, not just in the Pro audio world. Many folks post here that pro gear sucks, however none come forward and say: "I heard amp **** driving speaker ****** and it didn't sound good". To me broad generalizations mean little and carry even less weight than any post with specific listening impressions. It appears that if I were to suggest the world was round here in this forum there would be a slew of cohorts chime in and say it was flat. It's all good. Friends are friends, however I prefer the view of the lead dog, rather than that of those behind.

Paul

Paul, for what it's worth I've heard many home systems that had "pro" amplifiers. The sad truth is that many so called "pro" amps are superior to their home counterparts in terms of reliability, durability, and yes, sonics.

Two that I remember was a Bryston 4B driving a pair of the larger Magneplanars. It sounded better than "good". And another is my very own BGW GTA "pro amp" driving a friend's Apogee Duettas. My BGW provided superior bass and was at least the equal to his Aragon 8008 in every other respect.

I'm sure my two cases are not rare exceptions. There are other pro amps from Yamaha, BGW, and even Peavey which can be very good Hifi amplifiers.

Ron Temple

Nobody is going to change anyone's mind on this issue. I've seen it brought up elsewhere with similar result. Some go for it, some don't. I considered one of the PLX models several years ago. I even talked to Bob Lee from QSC about it, in PMs, regarding my application. I chickened out when I visited a Guitar Center to take a look. Their demo room had stacks of amps running with industrial cooling, as well as 80dbs of fan noise. We turned off everything but the QSC rack which was the quietest, but I couldn't get my head around it. I'm not siding on this issue because their are several guys I know and like that swear by this QSC line. I just couldn't take the plunge.

F1nut

Once again, the head BOZO twin is completely ignoring the fact that the damping factor has squat to do with driver control and isn't man enough to admit that he's wrong. Instead he tries to spin off attention from that fact to one about listening to his set up, which was never the subject matter at hand.

Epic FAIL!

beemer

Ron Temple wrote: »

Nobody is going to change anyone's mind on this issue. I've seen it brought up elsewhere with similar result. Some go for it, some don't. I considered one of the PLX models several years ago. I even talked to Bob Lee from QSC about it, in PMs, regarding my application. I chickened out when I visited a Guitar Center to take a look. Their demo room had stacks of amps running with industrial cooling, as well as 80dbs of fan noise. We turned off everything but the QSC rack which was the quietest, but I couldn't get my head around it. I'm not siding on this issue because their are several guys I know and like that swear by this QSC line. I just couldn't take the plunge.

Hello Ron:

Thanks! You went and looked and heard. They weren't for you. All good! You at minimum at least were open-minded and actually checked it out. That is my point. I'm not looking to change anyone's mind in any way, just to have an open mind and be willing to try.

Best,

Paul

NJPOLKER

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

well, as someone who has years of personal experience with both types of gear I would certainly never use pro gear in my hi-fi rig, of course I would never use my hi-fi gear in my gig rig. the damping factor mentioned here would be useful with HT subwoofers, however, this is one place where I do rather advocate the use of Ice as musicality is not a priority.

I will also support my old friend F1, we need hardcore members who tell it like it is and if your baby gets called ugly then it does, you don't have to like it but that does not mean there are no walls of bad sound out there, to say pro gear sucks for hi-fi is spot on.

RT1

Perfectly stated or Stated perfectly
Thank you RT1

reeltrouble1

F1nut wrote: »

Once again, the head BOZO twin is completely ignoring the fact that the damping factor has squat to do with driver control.

yes Jesse, I actually mispoke a bit, the advantage the pro amp may have for HT subwoofer use would be the rail voltages and impedance relationships. I know we have several members who have used Crown and some other brands with their HT passive subs, of course some decided the fan noise was just too much to bear and abandoned the idea for their HT rig. I myself have owned over 10 different pro amp brands for my artists gear and run across a slew of it with what my bandmates used over the past 40 years.

just because a pine tree's wood is soft wood does not mean one might not of become denser from sucking on hard water in it's individual area.

As always the problems within any system will be systemic to that individual set of interdependant pieces including the listener whose reactive function is unique to each system.

RT1

snow

One does not need to taste every container of Seal oil to know it all taste bad, the smell alone is enough to make your eyes water and your knees to buckle. Whether it be freshly made and of a clear color and only slightly rancid or several years old and a dark red-brown the only difference in taste is varying levels of really nasty **** and not of this world awful.



REGARDS SNOW

beemer

snow wrote: »

One does not need to taste every container of Seal oil to know it all taste bad, the smell alone is enough to make your eyes water and your knees to buckle. Whether it be freshly made and of a clear color and only slightly rancid or several years old and a dark red-brown the only difference in taste is varying levels of really nasty **** and not of this world awful.



REGARDS SNOW

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

Best,

Paul

motorstereo

beemer wrote: »

Hello Ron:

Thanks! You went and looked and heard. They weren't for you. All good! You at minimum at least were open-minded and actually checked it out. That is my point. I'm not looking to change anyone's mind in any way, just to have an open mind and be willing to try.

Best,

Paul

Hi Paul; After reading all the bad raps that the pro gear gets I must admit I was also quite skeptical about giving them a shot. Thankfully I also look at things with an open mind as well. Pro amps may not be everyone's cup of tea but I do know firsthand they easily drive my 2.3s to levels not achieved before by a handful of home audio amps. I also find it strange that lots of folks won't even give them a shot because of someone else's opinion.

Polkie2009

I've got a Carvin DCM 2000 amp I used in a cover band back in 2000 that I thought about experimenting with it a 2 channel setup.Just never got around to hooking it up to some hi-fi speakers. I remember Manny's in NYC used to praise their Hafler pro amps as being really clean sounding and suitable for studio use.

beemer

Polkie2009 wrote: »

I've got a Carvin DCM 2000 amp I used in a cover band back in 2000 that I thought about experimenting with it a 2 channel setup.Just never got around to hooking it up to some hi-fi speakers. I remember Manny's in NYC used to praise their Hafler pro amps as being really clean sounding and suitable for studio use.

Do you still have the Carvin amp? If you do try it and tell us if it sucks or shines.

Paul