Law of diminisning returns

rubin

Hello to all CP members & visitors.In regards to this topic at what price point do you think this (law) kicks in?This is considering a two ch. rig with seperates,a cd source,fullrange towers,and a dedicated subwoofer. Most articles I've read indicate $5,000.00 usd pretty much is the limit for " good bang for the buck" returns, of the equipment mentioned.Personally I have over $12,000.00 invested (origional purchase) including IC's and cables.With no regrets.I'm not asking anyone to give a tally of their investment,just interested in your thoughts.

TNRabbit

Depends entirely on YOU. Everyone's threshold is different. For some, Wal-Mart is the threshold...

rubin

TNRabbit wrote: »

Depends entirely on YOU. Everyone's threshold is different. For some, Wal-Mart is the threshold...

I would think the articles I read pertain to those of us with middle class incomes and with above average interest in audio.

danz1906

I would say in the $10,000 range,most equipment in the $5000.00 to 10,000.00
range are very very good.Once you go higher you get 2 to 3% better at most.

AudioGenics

contrast that with folks that are into fine Art, automobiles, planes, etc....

tcrossma

I don't think you can put a total price point on it like that. If someone spends $4000 for their speakers and $1000 between the rest of their components and cables, they are not going to be happy. If you consider $5000 split between components, which components are we talking about? Just speakers, amp, and pre? Or including cables? Maybe a pre with HT bypass and AVR? How about a TT? Tubes?

Way too many variables to put a single "point of no return" figure on the entire system.

Face

$4786.86.

nooshinjohn

The law of deminishing returns is present from the first dollar spent. At which point we call it quits is up to the individual.

BlueFox

rubin wrote: »

Hello to all CP members & visitors.In regards to this topic at what price point do you think this (law) kicks in?This is considering a two ch. rig with seperates,a cd source,fullrange towers,and a dedicated subwoofer. Most articles I've read indicate $5,000.00 usd pretty much is the limit for " good bang for the buck" returns, of the equipment mentioned.

Is that $5000 a piece for each component, or $5000 total? If total then I feel you have a way to go before it kicks in. While a $5K system will sound great, clear, obvious, audible improvements should result from more expensive equipment. On the other hand, IMO, if you paid $5K for each piece then you probably will get only minor improvements by buying even more expensive equipment. In fact, I suspect you could pay $2500, or less, for each component (5K for two speakers), and it will be close to the $5K per component level in quality.

I wish I had the money to verify my opinion. :rolleyes:

rubin

Face wrote: »

$4786.86.

Hmmm.... or perhaps $4786.87

rubin

The articles and other peoples opinions suggest that after 5K (for a complete system) big bucks are needed for less and less benifets. From 1K to 5K the gains vs cost are relatively in line.From 5Kto 10K,20K etc.,the gain vs cost drops off. However for those with $$$$$$$$$$$$ to burn,it's of not much of a concern but to us average guys the cost vs gain factor is reality.EG. a pair of $900.00 speakers to 3K speakers= BIG DIFFERENCE in sound 3K to 6K not as much and so on . If I could afford it, I would spend 500K or more but 90 percent of us are in that 5to 10K bracket.

NewHTguy

nooshinjohn wrote: »

The law of deminishing returns is present from the first dollar spent. At which point we call it quits is up to the individual.

Pretty much in agreement. Would say that the returns beyond my first pair of R50s and Onk 605 have been diminishing. But I love my present system and would never want to go back.

rubin

My first system--- an 8 track player & 2 small speakers $100.00 Next system ---- receiver, t-table ,full fange speakers $1400.00 HUGE IMPROVEMENT.Next system---- 5K still a good improvement.Current system 12K + a fairly good improvement .

snow

rubin wrote: »

My first system--- an 8 track player & 2 small speakers $100.00 Next system ---- receiver, t-table ,full fange speakers $1400.00 HUGE IMPROVEMENT.Next system---- 5K still a good improvement.Current system 12K + a fairly good improvement .

Oppinions will vary greatly on this subject and I dont believe there is any true answer for all people, some of us have better hearing then others and even though you may be able to hear an estimated 50% improvement in going from lets say a $500.00 CD player to a $1500.00 CD player it doesnt mean that some will only notice a 10% improvement or none at all. And all price point components arent all equal audio wise, one $2000.00 amp retail may sound better than many $5000.00 amps retail.

Also if you buy used vs retail you can get many more times the $$ amount in audio value. Does a $6500.00 retail pre/pro that sells used for $800.00 sound better than a new $3500.00 pre/pro? I think that at some point there is enough of a disminshing return that it wouldndt make good sense to spend the extra $$ but at 12k total you probally havent reached that point yet. My only advice is to research the hell out of things and listen to as many audio items that you can then decide what you want and if possible wait a year or two then grab it, the price will most likely be cut by 50% then and the product will probablly be barely broke in.



REGARDS SNOW

rubin

snow wrote: »

Oppinions will vary greatly on this subject and I dont believe there is any true answer for all people, some of us have better hearing then others and even though you may be able to hear an estimated 50% improvement in going from lets say a $500.00 CD player to a $1500.00 CD player it doesnt mean that some will only notice a 10% improvement or none at all. And all price point components arent all equal audio wise, one $2000.00 amp retail may sound better than many $5000.00 amps retail.

Also if you buy used vs retail you can get many more times the $$ amount in audio value. Does a $6500.00 retail pre/pro that sells used for $800.00 sound better than a new $3500.00 pre/pro? I think that at some point there is enough of a disminshing return that it wouldndt make good sense to spend the extra $$ but at 12k total you probally havent reached that point yet. My only advice is to research the hell out of things and listen to as many audio items that you can then decide what you want and if possible wait a year or two then grab it, the price will most likely be cut by 50% then and the product will probablly be barely broke in.



REGARDS SNOW

Well said

reeltrouble1

The first 96% of audio nivrana although needed is totally mundane.

RT1

cnh

This is a really good question...and a lot of people with limited cash have asked it many times.

At what point in the audio chain do we get to improvements that few if any can hear? And how much better are 50k speakers than 15k? Or 10K for that matter? The subjectivity involved here is LEGENDARY. I heard a 100K home audio system about a month ago....all Meridian (speakers and power) except for the two monster Atlantic Tech subs.

It sounded very very good. Was I awed by it? Could I say that it was 2 or 3 times 'better' than a 15K-20K system? NO! But it was better...to a degree...what degree depends on WHAT 'you' consider an UPGRADE!

I recently heard a 30K+ two channel Lyngdorf system, maybe it was more! The DP-1 speakers sounded suberb with solo instruments and acoustic fair--some of the BEST I've ever heard. So how does that compare with my equipment? Is it worth the extra money? I can't afford that...would rather buy a car!

But there is NO doubt that as you increase the money you spend, up to a point, the sound improvement you get is diminished, i.e., you go from let's say 20 percent to 10 to 5 and then much finer gradations of improvement to the point where you're probably moving in 1 percent increments for every 10K or more invested. Of course if you're wealthy and have a wondrous ego...you'll tell yourself that a million dollar system is going to be many times that of the system I mention above. But if we're only talking 2 channel (not HT). I really don't think so.

Then there's also the question, for those of us who are married, just how much are we going to spend on AUDIO before our wife walks or calls the men in the white coats. Especially us middle-class fellows who don't make 6 figures or more and have kids?

cnh

reeltrouble1

i heard some beveridge speakers, they were very nice.

for those that want to rationalize what they do and why they need to its cool, I have always said just get the best you can as fast as you can.

the magic is in the last little bit, but oh how good it sounds, those little 1% pops are everything and in terms of musical enjoyment jump the rig 33.3% better than the ordinary, sure you have to pay, sure its narcissistic, but worth every penny.

At lunch today I went to the house with a long time non-audiophile friend who still loves music, he is leaving the area and I wanted him to hear the rig. He said " I feel like I am sitting front row center listening to the New York Philharomnic play Also Sprach, thank you so much for letting me hear this, I never knew how speakers could sound."

RT1

cnh

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

i heard some beveridge speakers, they were very nice.

for those that want to rationalize what they do and why they need to its cool, I have always said just get the best you can as fast as you can.

the magic is in the last little bit, but oh how good it sounds, those little 1% pops are everything and in terms of musical enjoyment jump the rig 33.3% better than the ordinary, sure you have to pay, sure its narcissistic, but worth every penny.

At lunch today I went to the house with a long time non-audiophile friend who still loves music, he is leaving the area and I wanted him to hear the rig. He said " I feel like I am sitting front row center listening to the New York Philharomnic play Also Sprach, thank you so much for letting me hear this, I never knew how speakers could sound."

RT1

I know you're right...but it's hard not to balk sometimes...but the journey does last a lifetime after all.

Those Beveridge speakers, though pricey, look very interesting and pretty good looking as well. Wouldn't mind putting my ears to a set. At a lower level. I know what you mean.

A friend of mine owns a vintage pair of EPIs which I've always liked. Last time I visited him he was powering those with a 100 dollar receiver...it made me cringe to see such a waste, so much that I brought down an old Denon amp I have and sold it to him for almost nothing (now he could do better than that) but I just wanted him to hear the difference between a good mid-fi amp and a cheap AVR. And he did...couldn't believe the difference. So I said...well, you can do even better if you want. But at least you can actually listen to your speakers now. I also threw in a cheap pair of bookshelves for free--and demoed them with both the Sherwood and the Denon. Even the bookshelves sounded like a different speaker.

The guys/gals here, run all kinds of systems but, I've found that when we get together, surprisingly enough, and audition equipment--we more often AGREE than not! So much for all the contentious threads of recent months...unless we're all being subjected to some mass hypnosis...just kidding.

cnh

thuffman03

I have about $2400 into mine.

Carver ALIII
Carver TFM 55
Carver SDA 490t
Sunfire True Sub MK II
Carver C-5
Carver TX8
Squezebox Duet
Monster 3500mk2

All was bought used except the Squezebox and it took me about 1 year to peace it all together. I figure if I were to buy what is new on the market with compairable equipment it would cost me about $15000.

organ

I think it depends on the individual and tastes. For every given price point, there are so many options (ribbons, planars, stats, horns, bipoles, etc) that just finding out which one you like can end up costing as much as big dollar systems.
Some people can be happy as clams with 3w/ch SET amps and horns, while others prefer the sound of dynamic cones with big power to drive them. That's the great thing about audio. So many ways to enjoy our music.

john22614

Rubin,

I think 5 grand is a good sweet spot. I got there pretty much by chance with the money I invested in electronics, speakers and interconnects. If you divide that money roughly in half for speakers and electronics, I suspect anyone who does some decent research can find a great sounding system keeping in mind that does not include HT components. On so many occasions I've marveled at how great my system sounds in stereo, and yet sometimes wondered how more expensive components would perform. I doubt that I'll ever find out since I am so happy with what I have, and certainly have other things to spend my money on.

rubin

john22614 wrote: »

Rubin,

I think 5 grand is a good sweet spot. I got there pretty much by chance with the money I invested in electronics, speakers and interconnects. I suspect anyone who does some decent research can find a great sounding stereo system for that amount keeping in mind that does not include HT components. On so many occasions I've marveled at how great my system sounds in stereo, and yet sometimes wondered how more expensive components would perform. I doubt that I'll ever find out since I am so happy with what I have.

It's all about your personal satisfaction,congrats..

organ

You can also go used. 2-3k of used gear can sound really damn good.

rubin

organ wrote: »

You can also go used. 2-3k of used gear can sound really damn good.

Yes I'm sure it will,to bad I'm not comfortable buying used.Especially $$ stuff

organ

Then I'll say 5k. Probably the most bang for your $ when buying new.

Ern Dog

Interesting thread.

For me I've been getting a significant improvement in sound quality with each upgrade. I'm to the point where I'm very satisfied with my rig now. I'm at a place where I don't want to spend more on upgrading major components. I could see myself doing lateral moves to try out different gear and of coarse upgrading IC's, PC's, tubes, etc.

I think this decision is a very personal choices with lots of variables and there is no wrong ways of doing it. My main priority is to have fun because this is my favorite hobby. Listening to music has always been an important part of my life.

reeltrouble1

The longer you take to get there the shorter the time left to enjoy the sounds.

Enjoy the ride.

RT1

rubin

I've listened to stereos which prices enter the stratosphere,and were VERY impresive.When I returned back home and listened to mine.... well yep they were always better,but man the cost just blew me away.

reeltrouble1

have you studied the Law of Limited Necessity?? Just don't confuse an essential with a necessity.

RT1

madmax

I used to somewhat believe in the law of diminishing return. Then I pumped some huge money into some huge speakers and a nice preamp and the difference was amazing! Well worth the cost. I'm still thinking the preamp and speakers are the place to vary from the the law, maybe turntable stuff too. Secondary would be the amps, interconnects, source, wires, conditioners and everything else but I'm still thinking there is a quasi limit there...
madmax