Phantom Center

tonyb

TECHNOKID wrote: »

I'd like to learn more about the phantom center channel (thus the reason for reviving this thread ). I have noticed this mentioned in many discussions but without much explanation on the process. Yet with an AVR you simply tell the AVR to re-route all the center dialog to the R & L channels... However, am I correct to assume that most Polkies that prones phantom channels are mainly 2 channels users? In order to create successfully a phantom channel experience one needs nearly perfect room conditions and speaker placement, correct?

Cheers!
TK

All depends on your taste. Room is important,quality of the front speakers is important,a sub,sitting position,and on. But to keep it simple,just try it with your fav. dvd and make sure you adjust the settings in your avr. Now,this isn't for everyone,but some can get by without and not miss anything. Not really a process aside from the adjustment in settings,chances are if your HT is set up the way you like it,just disconnect the center from the avr,make the switch in the settings,throw in a dvd,see if you miss it,like it better,whatever.

steveinaz

I don't know jack about surround, but I have always wondered why a center channel? Properly placed stereo mains provide this already...

heiney9

I have the best phantom center ever! Better than any center speaker. Of course it's only 2 channel. I'm with ya Steve, center channels are for what?????

heiney9

Steve, I guess the thing is if your truly running an HT processor some signal is forced to the center channel. So if you don;t have a center channel hooked up that information is lost because it's not duplicated on the R & L mains.

But, that's why I have a 2.0 HT and many times it sounds more natural than a full 5.1 HT. Still when I watch a movie at my brother's the power and shear involvement of his 5.1 HT sure is fun. I enjoy both the 2.0 HT, I have, and a very nice properly calibrated 5.1 HT for a movie experience. Movies are pretty much make believe entertainment so why not have a 5.1 HT that isn;t exactly real in the way it portrays sounds and effects in real life.

Concert DVD's I still prefer on my 2.0 with SDA's.

tonyb

A good processor doesn't loose info from the center when set on phantom,just redistributes it to the left and right.Like I said,try it and see if you like it,doesn't cost anything and may save you some bucks to upgrade other gear.

Face

tonyb wrote: »

A good processor doesn't loose info from the center when set on phantom,just redistributes it to the left and right.Like I said,try it and see if you like it,doesn't cost anything and may save you some bucks to upgrade other gear.

IIRC, HD sound formats have to be down converted for a phantom center, meaning, you're losing data.

heiney9 wrote: »

I have the best phantom center ever! Better than any center speaker. Of course it's only 2 channel. I'm with ya Steve, center channels are for what?????

I used to know what you mean. My setup images pretty well, but now that I have a center that is on par with my mains, I've said goodbye to phantom mode. Music is still played only in 2 channel mode though.

heiney9

I see............I don't own and never have owned an HT processor; well since the late 80's and the first dolby surround decoder. So I admit I know nothing about a full HT processor or how/what settings can be done.

I just know with my 2ch gear I have an eerie phantom center channel, like the musician is right there in front of me with all the other musicians fore and aft, left and right in the soundstage.

Face

With SDA's and the interconnect in place, I can imagine things sounding strange with an actual center in place, so you're probably better off. For movies, you're still missing out on a lot of information though.

TECHNOKID

steveinaz wrote: »

I don't know jack about surround, but I have always wondered why a center channel? Properly placed stereo mains provide this already...

That's the reason I was asking if most that prones phantom center were using 2 channels gear.

heiney9 wrote: »

I have the best phantom center ever! Better than any center speaker. Of course it's only 2 channel. I'm with ya Steve, center channels are for what?????

This is what I was using before with my TV, 2 channels stereo and was quite happy however, like I pointed out in order to achieve this one needs a nearly perfect room along with nearly perfect placement, right?

tonyb wrote: »

A good processor doesn't loose info from the center when set on phantom,just redistributes it to the left and right.Like I said,try it and see if you like it,doesn't cost anything and may save you some bucks to upgrade other gear.

Thanks Tony, yes with an AVR you need to tell the processor so it transfers the signal that was originally going to the center otherwise you simply loose it.

Since I have a dedicated HT room, my main interest here is to run my old CRT TV audio through a stereo receiver in order to get better sound than the typical TV speakers. However, I don't want to spend extra $$$ for an AVR as this set-up is casually used on week days for TV watching, odd movie playing and music as I don't (usually) go in the HT on weekdays. However, I wanted to know a little more about the phantom center and see if this would be acceptable for the odd movie playing. That is already answered by Steve and H9.

Now I am at a disavantage with this living room since I originally builted it with esthetic and comfort in mind ratter than sound management (family welfare overall). The entertainment center and the sitting area are somewhat offset and therefore could be a problem if trying to create a phantom center channel. I've looked at the room at all the angles possible to see if moving stuff around could lead me to better placement but the way I've built the room will not allow me to move stuff around. The stero receiver I am planning to use has A+B+C connections in stereo, maybe I can somehow play with this to simulate a better front stage for movies? I have the hability to swivel the TV, maybe some of the sort (angling the speakers) would be the way to optimize the center sound stage?

Cheers!
TK

TECHNOKID

Face wrote: »

With SDA's and the interconnect in place, I can imagine things sounding strange with an actual center in place, so you're probably better off. For movies, you're still missing out on a lot of information though.

So are you saying you have seperate set-up for HT and 2 channels? For me HT is mainly HT since AVRs aren't the best for music. In this case I have to compromise since it is used for the week days casual music, TV and movie listeneing. I am not expecting the big theater experience but want to better the SQ over the TV speakers along with being able to play music with decent SQ.

Cheers!
TK

tonyb

Well,depends.....My system and some others here pull double duty for 2 channel and HT. The thing is,if your going to do it that way,get the best possible gear you can afford or the music part may lack a bit. I hear ya on the room thing as mine isn't perfect either.You stack the room for comfort first and then try and squeeze in HT and music and balance it all with the wife acceptance factor. You could also do 4 speakers with your current 2 channel receiver for both and see how you like it.Not real sure what your aiming for without laying out coin for new gear.

pearsall001

Double duty here also...as far as the center is concerned, a definite for HT. Two channel remains the same with mains only. When in the mood, 5.1 for music to change things up a bit. Getting back to the center, movie directors have taken movie audio to a whole new level with a dedicated center channel. It adds realism & keeps the whole audio track well defined & focused. If they wanted to split the audio to the mains I think they would have done that & not have bothered with a dedicated center channel.

apphd

Like so many things there is no cut and dry answer to this. If you were to run 4.1 or 2.1 without using the phantom mode it would be painfully un-enjoyable. But as so many others have said, phantom mode can be a very good option, and for some even better than using a center.

Center tracks are to lock the front and center sound, to the video action we are seeing, for the brain to be happy. If the sound appears to come from too far off center of what we are seeing we just don't like it, because it is too unnatural.

While you do not need a "perfect room" the room will effect how well your gear can trick your brain. I think some processors center mode can do a better job than others as well as different speakers imaging capabilities. The seating locations, speaker placement, and source quality will also impact the effectiveness. Since this sounds like it is for a second TV room, give it a shot, you have nothing to loose. Since it is for a non critical rig, if I followed your posts correctly, you can always try mixing your TV's speakers into the mix as well, if the phantom is just slightly lacking. Of course then you have to screw with trying to get the level form the TV right, but for casual viewing you don't need to reinvent the wheel. Just set it during an average speaking scene and see what you get.

TECHNOKID

Thanks all for your opinions and insights.

tonyb wrote: »

Well,depends.....My system and some others here pull double duty for 2 channel and HT. The thing is,if your going to do it that way,get the best possible gear you can afford or the music part may lack a bit. I hear ya on the room thing as mine isn't perfect either.You stack the room for comfort first and then try and squeeze in HT and music and balance it all with the wife acceptance factor. You could also do 4 speakers with your current 2 channel receiver for both and see how you like it.Not real sure what your aiming for without laying out coin for new gear.

I don't have any problems with the gear since I intend to use my vintage speakers (whivh I just replaced the mids) for music. Now, reading all of you tells me that maybe other options for movie watching are potentially available.

pearsall001 wrote: »

Double duty here also...as far as the center is concerned, a definite for HT. Two channel remains the same with mains only. When in the mood, 5.1 for music to change things up a bit. Getting back to the center, movie directors have taken movie audio to a whole new level with a dedicated center channel. It adds realism & keeps the whole audio track well defined & focused. If they wanted to split the audio to the mains I think they would have done that & not have bothered with a dedicated center channel.

For HT high def experience, I fully agree with you that a minimum of 3.1 to 5.1 is a must. Just keep in mind that I have a dedicated HT room and that this living room uses older technologies (CRT TV, stereo system, no High definition in any way shape or form). Like I pointed out the living room is used during work days (few hours in the evening Monday to Friday) as I don't use the HT during that time.

apphd wrote: »

Like so many things there is no cut and dry answer to this. If you were to run 4.1 or 2.1 without using the phantom mode it would be painfully un-enjoyable. But as so many others have said, phantom mode can be a very good option, and for some even better than using a center.

Center tracks are to lock the front and center sound, to the video action we are seeing, for the brain to be happy. If the sound appears to come from too far off center of what we are seeing we just don't like it, because it is too unnatural.

While you do not need a "perfect room" the room will effect how well your gear can trick your brain. I think some processors center mode can do a better job than others as well as different speakers imaging capabilities. The seating locations, speaker placement, and source quality will also impact the effectiveness. Since this sounds like it is for a second TV room, give it a shot, you have nothing to loose. Since it is for a non critical rig, if I followed your posts correctly, you can always try mixing your TV's speakers into the mix as well, if the phantom is just slightly lacking. Of course then you have to screw with trying to get the level form the TV right, but for casual viewing you don't need to reinvent the wheel. Just set it during an average speaking scene and see what you get.

Some to keep in mind, I am not using an AVR with this system but a stereo receiver thus no HT processing, considering this thrue center would be out of question, right? Since the Sony TVs have internal and external speakers programming option this allows me to use the TVs remote control and I can leave the amp/receiver constanly set at the same volume level. What you are saying about using/blending the TV speakers with the stereo system. When testing the Rocketfish wireless rear speaker system I accidently noticed that if my Sony Wega was left on internal speakers both the internal speakers and external speaker system would work. Now, the testing and blending was satisfactory for my bedroom set-up however, I am not sure if 1. my Sony Trinitron acts the same way (both internal and external speakers working simultaneously) and 2. I am not sure if my 3 way vintage speakers would actually blend with the flimsy built in speakers. It is however worht considering and spending some time testing such avenue.

Now, the offset of the room is slightly a problem when trying to provide great listening position. The way the room is layed out, there are no good position of the speakers without scrapping the esthetic of the room and speakers would simply be in the way (totally unrealistic) unless...

Since I slowly upgrade my HT speakers, I could consider using some of them for the movie experience;

1. I have a Polk 42" surroundbar avaialble but as I pointed out I don't want to run an AVR in this living room and positioning appropriately would also be an issue. This is unfortunate since it could have provided the double duty (IE: the vintage for music playing using the A channels while I would have the B+C channels available for the TV/movie experience).

2. Roughly the same arrangement for the A B+C but using 4 Polk RM10s which could be ceiling or wall mounted to provide much better speaker positionning (I also have some RM20s but I was originally planning to ceiling mount them in the HT to provide greater surrounding effect as right now only RM30 are wall mounted). This type of arrangement would make it much easier to provide blending with the TV speakers.

3. This third option would be to audition if my Athena (originally bought for my bedroom rig) speakers with my vintage speakers and see if they are a good match and then move the RM ceiling mounting to the bedroom instead.


Overall, the points to consider is a good speaker blending with the best speaker positionning possible (thus potentially creating phantom center effect) without neglecting the cosmetic of the room. With all this said, which option would you recommend? Like I said, I am not looking for super HT effect but ratter good SQ for both music and TV/movie listening.

Cheers!
TK

apphd

Wasn't aware that you were talking a stereo rec. and not AVR. So you do not have either, center ch., or the phantom center processing avail. to you. Not sure what your floor layout would be, but it doesn't sound like you want to dump any $$ into it (understandably) so you are kind of limited, by gear and room. Hook it up and play around with it to see if it gives you what you want. Just be willing to spend some time trying different things before you scratch the plan. Is the Sony you're talking about CRT? I was going to suggest keeping the speakers fairly close to the display to prevent the false location of sounds, but with vintage speakers and a CRT you have limitations there as well. I think you probably can come up with something that will improve the overall SQ above the TV speakers alone, but it may be limited.

TECHNOKID

apphd wrote: »

Wasn't aware that you were talking a stereo rec. and not AVR. So you do not have either, center ch., or the phantom center processing avail. to you. Not sure what your floor layout would be, but it doesn't sound like you want to dump any $$ into it (understandably) so you are kind of limited, by gear and room. Hook it up and play around with it to see if it gives you what you want. Just be willing to spend some time trying different things before you scratch the plan. Is the Sony you're talking about CRT? I was going to suggest keeping the speakers fairly close to the display to prevent the false location of sounds, but with vintage speakers and a CRT you have limitations there as well. I think you probably can come up with something that will improve the overall SQ above the TV speakers alone, but it may be limited.

Yes, I realize the limitation but this was also a question as it seems that most opting for the phantom center are 2 channels users and most don't seem to be using AVRs. I guess I got the answer on that one. As I pointed out, back then I was using the Sony CRT Trinitron in such a matter with some success (of course, no HD as HD belongs to HT room). All I want to do in this living room (along with the bedroom set-up) is improve the SQ over TV speakers (since I already have stereo amp in place for audio enjoyment). With a dedicated HT room and already having many amps available I didn't feel it would be good spending to buy other AVR(s) (either living room and/or bedroom... especially knowing that AVRs aren't the best for music). I have been working on clearing the living room of the entertainment unit and all the electronics this weekend and once that is out of the way, I'll be able to try various set-ups and see what is best. I think small bookshelf type speakers (RM10s) would allow me for better speaker placement (ceiling mount) in this room and might be a better blend with Sony TV speakers for the TV watching/listening portion. For music listening maybe I could move the larger vintage speakers to the back closer to the listening/seating area? I guess we'll see with trial and error until getting it right.

Cheers!
TK

tcrossma

TECHNOKID wrote: »

might be a better blend with Sony TV speakers for the TV watching/listening portion.

You're not going to use the TV speakers and the RM's at the same time are you? I assume you'll just have everything go through your receiver and turn off the TV speakers...