Phantom Center
MillerLiteScott
Posts: 2,561
I am toying with the idea of getting rid of my center channel speaker and the associated 5 channel amp that I am using 2 channels to power my center with. The amp also powers my rear surrounds but I could use my AVR to power those in a pinch and just buy a decent 2 channel amp to power them in the future.
I have my center out of the loop right now but still sitting there and I doubt that anyone could tell it is not being used. My mains are SDA 2B TL's powered by my integrated utilizing a HT bypass.
This is kind of an off the cuff thought because I was recently thinking of building a monster center channel because so much information comes through the center channel. Today just for the hell of it I put my setting to no center channel and there is very little difference and in some cases it sounds more cohesive.
What are your thoughts??
I have my center out of the loop right now but still sitting there and I doubt that anyone could tell it is not being used. My mains are SDA 2B TL's powered by my integrated utilizing a HT bypass.
This is kind of an off the cuff thought because I was recently thinking of building a monster center channel because so much information comes through the center channel. Today just for the hell of it I put my setting to no center channel and there is very little difference and in some cases it sounds more cohesive.
What are your thoughts??
I like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D
Post edited by MillerLiteScott on
Comments
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I got rid of my center about a year ago and couldn't be happier. It sounds equal to, if not better, that it did before. Off-center seating takes a bit of a hit without a dedicated center speaker, in my opinion, but for me that's really not an issue.Speakers: Polk LSi15
Pre: Adcom GFP-750 with HT Bypass
Amp: Pass Labs X-150
CD/DVD Player: Classe CDP-10
Interconnects: MIT Shortgun S3 Pro XLR
Speaker cables: MIT MH-750 bi-wire
TT:Micro Seiki DD-35
Cartridge:Denon DL-160
Phono Pre:PS Audio GCPH -
I've run phantom for over a year now and find it more convincing. Of course that will vary setup to setup. But if it sound as good, if not better for you, get rid of it. That's one less large object between your mains."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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Phantom here too.
Venom -
i too have been going back and forth between a center and none... and last week went phantom using only a sub and the 2.3tl's...overall very happy so far....
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On a similar note... since I found out my room is a tad too small for my Magnepans in stereo, I was thinking of using them as a derived center channel directly left and right of my TV. It says to wire them up in series (8-10ohms nominal) and then angle them at the seating area. What do you think? It's sort of a "phantom" but at the same time still a discrete center channel. I'll be using outboard amplification.
I got this idea from the 6moons review of the MMG-W'sMain Surround -
Epson 8350 Projector/ Elite Screens 120" / Pioneer Elite SC-35 / Sunfire Signature / Focal Chorus 716s / Focal Chorus CC / Polk MC80 / Polk PSW150 sub
Bedroom - Sharp Aquos 70" 650 / Pioneer SC-1222k / Polk RT-55 / Polk CS-250
Den - Rotel RSP-1068 / Threshold CAS-2 / Boston VR-M60 / BDP-05FD -
On a similar note... since I found out my room is a tad too small for my Magnepans in stereo, I was thinking of using them as a derived center channel directly left and right of my TV. It says to wire them up in series (8-10ohms nominal) and then angle them at the seating area. What do you think? It's sort of a "phantom" but at the same time still a discrete center channel. I'll be using outboard amplification.
I got this idea from the 6moons review of the MMG-W's
What are the room dimensions? -
I have done both. For watching TV and movies I like having a center. I guess it really comes down to personal pref.Sunfire TGP, Sunfire Cinema Grand, Sunfire 300~2 (2), Sunfire True Sub (2),Carver ALS Platinum, Carver AL III, TFM-55, C-19, C-9, TX-8, SDA-490t, SDA-390t
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No phantom here...I want the whole experience (center is crucial for HT). Phantom center is akin to listening to two channel with one speaker. Any of you phantom center guys tried that yet?"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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I think the room dimensions are 18 x 14 or so.Main Surround -
Epson 8350 Projector/ Elite Screens 120" / Pioneer Elite SC-35 / Sunfire Signature / Focal Chorus 716s / Focal Chorus CC / Polk MC80 / Polk PSW150 sub
Bedroom - Sharp Aquos 70" 650 / Pioneer SC-1222k / Polk RT-55 / Polk CS-250
Den - Rotel RSP-1068 / Threshold CAS-2 / Boston VR-M60 / BDP-05FD -
Not even close. Have you?pearsall001 wrote: »No phantom here...I want the whole experience (center is crucial for HT). Phantom center is akin to listening to two channel with one speaker. Any of you phantom center guys tried that yet?"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
pearsall001 wrote: »No phantom here...I want the whole experience (center is crucial for HT). Phantom center is akin to listening to two channel with one speaker. Any of you phantom center guys tried that yet?
I wouldn't say that. The whole point of 2 channel is that it can form a cohesive "image" from just two point sources. The only problem is sitting off axis.
Set up correctly, a good 2 channel should be able to matrix a center channel by outputting the same thing to both sides.Main Surround -
Epson 8350 Projector/ Elite Screens 120" / Pioneer Elite SC-35 / Sunfire Signature / Focal Chorus 716s / Focal Chorus CC / Polk MC80 / Polk PSW150 sub
Bedroom - Sharp Aquos 70" 650 / Pioneer SC-1222k / Polk RT-55 / Polk CS-250
Den - Rotel RSP-1068 / Threshold CAS-2 / Boston VR-M60 / BDP-05FD -
The trouble as I see it with running SDA'a up front is voicematching. I too prefer the sound I get in stereo over the 5.1/7.1 setups I have tried with SDA's up front. That said I love my setup for movies. I am working on a voice-matched center for the SDA's now and hope this will finally give me something that can match well with the SDA's.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
I must say that I was thinking the same thing John...! Just picked up my SDA-2Bs--probably remain in a 2 channel system as I continue to run my M70 system for HT!
That SDA effect is pretty specific and has a tight sweet-spot!
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
I wouldn't say that. The whole point of 2 channel is that it can form a cohesive "image" from just two point sources. The only problem is sitting off axis.
Set up correctly, a good 2 channel should be able to matrix a center channel by outputting the same thing to both sides.
That was meant as tongue-in-cheek. Referring to listening to two channel with one speaker would be half assed...as is HT with no center. There's a reason Hollywood records movies in 5.1, not 4.1. Downmixing center info into the mains just doesn't cut it for me. It comprises the whole movie audio track."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
I have a thread for it in the DIY section...The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Phil,
As I mentioned in my OP, my set up with the SDA 2B's and my center channel sitting in between not being utilized. I think you would have a hard time not believing it was in the mix. The imaging with my SDA's is so inclusive of the center channel mix and obvious blending of transfer between the center and L @ R channels makes the center channel more of an identifiable hindrance than a positive application.
YMMV,
ScottI like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D -
Any setup that images well shouldn't need a center. I briefly tried using a center with a pair of 2B's and thought it sounded odd, as if there were phase issues."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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The "most important speaker" in HT is the one everybody didn't already have laying around in the basement.
What a marketing job. -
Is there any true facts to prove this either way? Is it strictly a personal preference things?
I have much nicer fronts/surrounds than my center, although they are (i think) voice matched, would i be better off going 4.1 instead? I will try this tonight and see what I think -
IMHO I think that a good voicematched front soundstage for 5.1 or 7.1 is superior to a phantom center... the trouble for those of us using SDA's for the mains is that they tend to have such a presence that they easily overwhelm most any center channel they get paired with. This is the reason for my trying to do my own thing and build one. I have heard that the CS1000 does a very good job of working with the SDA's, but it was designed to work with the SRT system and needed to be very robust in its performance just to keep up with what the SRT front speakers were capable of.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
MillerLiteScott wrote: »Phil,
As I mentioned in my OP, my set up with the SDA 2B's and my center channel sitting in between not being utilized. I think you would have a hard time not believing it was in the mix. The imaging with my SDA's is so inclusive of the center channel mix and obvious blending of transfer between the center and L @ R channels makes the center channel more of an identifiable hindrance than a positive application.
YMMV,
Scott
Scott,
I'm wondering if the SDA's design can cause them to overshadow the center. Don't they have some sort of a time delay between the R/L speakers? If that's the case I can see how a center would not gell all that well.
But for those of as non SDA owners, I feel the center really anchors the whole audio sound track. Downmixing the center info to the mains can still sound pretty good, but it's still not giving you the the correct audio presentation as the director intended. Maybe it's just me, but I prefer to maximize my HT experience by running a complete 5.1 system."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
What I have found is that in phantom center mode the R@L are handling all the info. and just gives a nice full front stage sound. The SDA's image very well in my case and also have the presence that wraps around to the side of the front stage.
With the center channel in the mix most of the info is coming through the center channel and therefor less info is being produced by the L@R and there is less presence as compared to the phantom mode. This kind of changes here and there with different programing, Dolby Digital or Pro Logic in my case.
I am going to try it both ways a little more and see what work best in my set up.
ScottI like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D -
MillerLiteScott wrote: »I am going to try it both ways a little more and see what work best in my set up.
Scott
Scot, I feel the same as you. My SDA-2B's sound great with no center! However, I chose to keep the center just in case because sometimes depending on the recording or broadcast, the center does help.
It seems to all depend on the quality of the broadcast/DD/DTS/Dolby 2.0 etc.
I also like the flexibility of having both options. Gives me something to play with.:D -
Any setup that images well shouldn't need a center.
That is the bottom line, no 2 speakers will perform the same and no 2 rooms will either. With great imaging speakers in the right room, phantom is incredible. I find phantom mode to be the perfect soundstage. It is more airy and natural to me. I have used many center's over the years and while they matched my mains, there was always a disconnect.
Venom -
I've disconnected my entire 5.1 set up and now run movies on 2ch. The great thing with the new stuff (DTHD, DTS-MA) is that you can still get the high res. sound using the 2ch outputs.
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I've gone phantom center for over a year now and you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference.All depends I guess on how well your front 2 speakers image,anchor the sound,and width of soundstage.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
It's great if you are the only one enjoying the HT. you can set it up for you to be in the sweetspot and rock on. it's the other people who get the sh!tty end of the stick, but who cares about them?
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I'm doing the phantom center thing. Actually went pure two-channel for a while, but decided to buy a pair of OWM3 just out of curiousity. One of the reasons I've been resisting is that my Sanus TV stand is running out of room. Igoing to have to start stacking things or get a separate rack.
Have nevertheless been debating whether I should add a center. There are times when there is very little loss IMO. However, there are some movies where the dialogue is really hard to hear.MAIN: Polk Lsi9s; Polk PSW505; Lsic (in box); Onkyo SR-875; Parasound 2250; Cambridge Audio 740C; LG BD370
OFFICE: Polk Lsi7; REL T3; HK 3490; CA 840W; Onkyo C-S5VL
BENCHED: CS20; OWM3s -
I'd like to learn more about the phantom center channel (thus the reason for reviving this thread
). I have noticed this mentioned in many discussions but without much explanation on the process. Yet with an AVR you simply tell the AVR to re-route all the center dialog to the R & L channels... However, am I correct to assume that most Polkies that prones phantom channels are mainly 2 channels users? In order to create successfully a phantom channel experience one needs nearly perfect room conditions and speaker placement, correct?
Cheers!
TKDARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
Phantom center for concert dvds but I use the center for tv and especially movies. The center cleans up the dialogue.
JoeJoe
