max capability of speakers

olilugo

Is there such a thing as topping the capability of a speaker set?

my speakers are relatively new (1-1.5 years).
In the mean time I been changing my receiver, cables, sources etc.
I still feel I am not getting the wow factor...

I changed my receiver from a vsx-812k pioneer(upper entry level) to an SC-07 elite pionner receiver
I added an external amp - sunfire TGA-5200
I added a pionner elite cd/dvd player
I added a Sony Blu-ray player
I added IC cables

I keep on thinking the sound comming out it muffed, constricted.
I have tried running the AVR MCACC and so on...

My mains are rti6's and my center is the csi5.
have I top what these speakers can do?

treitz3

Hmmm, are you sure all of the drivers are working? You can check by running your ear right by each driver within two inches away from it. Also, is everything in phase?

treitz3

Another thing, what source material are you running? In other words, are you playing burnt or downloaded CD's/DVD's etc.?

Montoya

Something doesn't click at high volumes you should barely be able to hear yourself think with that setup and it should be clear and precise. Your setup is similar to mine. When i'm playing a movie at anything greater than -10 on the dial a person next to me has to yell for me to hear them.

Erik Tracy

Yeah - something doesn't sound right...bad pun intended.

If anything the older RTi series was branded as being too bright.

I like to think that what the detractors really meant was 'sparkling' in sound.

If you think the RTi6s sound 'muffed' (muffled?) - then something ain't right.

I've got the next generation of the RTi6s - the RTiA3s and they are a spacious, open, sparkling speaker - for a bookshelf.

VSchneider

Room? Placement?

Along the lines of what treitz3 is saying... there could be something else wrong in the system. I have a feeling it is not power or source electronics - SC-07 SHOULD have been enough even before the Sunfire.

zingo

If it's sounded muffled or constricted, are you sure the tweeters are working? Either the driver itself or its wiring/crossover? The RTis should sound a little bright, so that is the only thing that would make sense.

olilugo

thanks for all the suguestions, don't get me wrong, it is loud, and clear but I feel it is missing the wow... the sound stage is kind of there .. I don't know I was expecting a different level of sound not necesseraly loud.... but wow... I might have to try to put my main's on stands and see if it helps.

By phase you mean if the are connected properly right black to black, red to red... yeah it is all good ... loud is not the problem :-).

Or maybe I should just be happy and enjoy....

olilugo

treitz3 wrote: »

Another thing, what source material are you running? In other words, are you playing burnt or downloaded CD's/DVD's etc.?

I am trying all kinds of combinations, I am using real CD's, not downloaded,
I am using real dvd's and real Blu-ray disks.

last I am using my flash drive and converted some of the songs out of the cd's to flac format as the SC-07 will play that format.

At the end it is loud but I rather have it not so loud but a very rich and big sound stage. I hope this helps...

Erik Tracy

olilugo wrote: »

I am trying all kinds of combinations, I am using real CD's, not downloaded,
I am using real dvd's and real Blu-ray disks.

last I am using my flash drive and converted some of the songs out of the cd's to flac format as the SC-07 will play that format.

At the end it is loud but I rather have it not so loud but a very rich and big sound stage. I hope this helps...

Room size and layout, and your speaker placement will also effect the sound stage experience.

There are many variables at play here and without more specifics, the best we can do are the large 'shotgun' recommendations.

Can you tell us more about your room layout?

Just stirring the pot...

jimmydep

You might try the auto speaker set up feature the SC-07 has, and see if that makes any difference.

If you can confirm that there is nothing wrong with the speakers then your ears may be telling you your ready to take the next step......start listening to different speakers, I have the LSI series and for music they are very good, I do get that wow factor.

I have heard the RTI-A9 they are very powerfull speakers with a tremendous low end, but a little too much "Sparkle" for my taste.

Jimmy

zingo

olilugo wrote: »

Or maybe I should just be happy and enjoy....

Nope. Not acceptable.

I think I may be starting to agree with you about the "max capability" of your speakers. If you are trying to get a real musical experience in 2 channel, RTi6s may not be doing for you as they would not be my choice. Have you demoed other speakers to find that wow you are looking for?

treitz3

olilugo wrote: »

By phase you mean if the are connected properly right black to black, red to red... yeah it is all good ... loud is not the problem

Yes, that's what I meant. Olilugo, have you put your ear literally up to each driver yet to see if they are all working?

If you have and you can confirm that they all work correctly, then we can move on to other possible issues. Could I kindly ask you to post a photo, if you don't mind, of your setup? It might help us to help you. Thank you in advance if you can make it happen.

olilugo

Zingo,

That is what I am affraid off... it might be time to spend more money... :-)

Treitz3,
I will actually check it out tonight, to be honest I have not put my ear close to the speakers to see if they are working properly. I just assume because I can hear sords, bullets, talk, explosions and so on... those sounds are so clear and loud that I assumed they are working. I will double check.

Thanks guys I think I will start by putting together a list of speaker and see if I cna demo them.

Supposedly, I should spend more money on speakers than the rest of the system, but now I think the rest of the system is a lot more than my speakers…

Again, thanks for all the advise, I will keep you guys posted on how I navigate this journey...

cfrizz

I think you just may have hit the limit for what you expect bookshelf speakers to do. They have everything they need to shine & operate to their full potential. If you can upgrade your fronts to towers you will probably get the wow factor you are looking for. Otherwise, get some B&W's. Good luck.

zingo

olilugo wrote: »

I just assume because I can hear sords...

?

cfrizz wrote: »

I think you just may have hit the limit for what you expect bookshelf speakers to do. They have everything they need to shine & operate to their full potential. If you can upgrade your fronts to towers you will probably get the wow factor you are looking for. Otherwise, get some B&W's. Good luck.

Bingo.

olilugo

Erik Tracy wrote: »

Room size and layout, and your speaker placement will also effect the sound stage experience.

There are many variables at play here and without more specifics, the best we can do are the large 'shotgun' recommendations.

Can you tell us more about your room layout?

Just stirring the pot...

Hey Erik,
Here is a drawing of my room, heavy curtains on one side an an entertaiment center which I built in between two columns. it has two openings on the other side and the main speakers are inside the Ent Center. no other treatment.

olilugo

zingo wrote: »

?

Bingo.

si.. he he he ... sorry typo... swords, you know like in the pirates of the caribbeans sord fights

olilugo

cfrizz wrote: »

I think you just may have hit the limit for what you expect bookshelf speakers to do. They have everything they need to shine & operate to their full potential. If you can upgrade your fronts to towers you will probably get the wow factor you are looking for. Otherwise, get some B&W's. Good luck.

yes the B&W 803s they really call my name...:D, if I ever get there it would have to be used... don't make enough to buy these level of speakers new.

olilugo

jimmydep wrote: »

You might try the auto speaker set up feature the SC-07 has, and see if that makes any difference.

If you can confirm that there is nothing wrong with the speakers then your ears may be telling you your ready to take the next step......start listening to different speakers, I have the LSI series and for music they are very good, I do get that wow factor.

I have heard the RTI-A9 they are very powerfull speakers with a tremendous low end, but a little too much "Sparkle" for my taste.

Jimmy

Thanks Jimmy. I did do the auto setup, then I change the fronts to small and re-ran the setup. then I went in and manually changed some of the settings and I got some improvement but.... no sparkles...

Don't get me wrong, it sounds impressive enough and my wife is very happy.
I think I am just curious as to how my setup will sound with different mains. I think I am ready for floor standing speakers.

VSchneider

olilugo wrote: »

Hey Erik,
Here is a drawing of my room, heavy curtains on one side an an entertaiment center which I built in between two columns. it has two openings on the other side and the main speakers are inside the Ent Center. no other treatment.

err... I think I see a problem... at least part of it.

have you tried to listen to your speakers outside of that cabinet, all 3 pointing at the ear level?

olilugo

VSchneider wrote: »

err... I think I see a problem... at least part of it.

have you tried to listen to your speakers outside of that cabinet, all 3 pointing at the ear level?

Yes I am going to try doing this, After I built the Ent Center I realized that the center speaker should have been at the same level as the mains, and as my taste changes, I would have designed it so that the speakers would not be inside of it.
You know what people say "If I knew them what I know now..."

Erik Tracy

VSchneider wrote: »

err... I think I see a problem... at least part of it.

have you tried to listen to your speakers outside of that cabinet, all 3 pointing at the ear level?

I was going to suggest the same thing.

Maybe try an experiment by putting the RTi6s on stands (or make shift stands) outside the entertainment center and high enough to be at ear level in the primary listening spot.

If you leave your speakers down and inside your entertainment center you may get the same 'constricted' result - even if you sink 2 grand for a higher end book shelf.

I'd play around with speaker placement first.

Your room setup is pretty straight forward - again - going on your descriptions when you say the RTi6s are 'muffed' and constricted - I'm thinking there is something else first that needs looking at before jumping up the budget to a new speaker.

megasat16

olilugo wrote: »

thanks for all the suguestions, don't get me wrong, it is loud, and clear but I feel it is missing the wow... the sound stage is kind of there .. I don't know I was expecting a different level of sound not necesseraly loud.... but wow... I might have to try to put my main's on stands and see if it helps.

By phase you mean if the are connected properly right black to black, red to red... yeah it is all good ... loud is not the problem :-).

Or maybe I should just be happy and enjoy....

What more could you expect from RTi6? I have RTi12 and they are good as it is but not what I wanted them to be no matter how many different amps or IC cables I tried them with. Apple can't be turned into oranges by simply painting a different color on them.

To say it simpler, I think you've reached the limitations of your speaker and you may not probably get a lot more out of it to really Wow you. Buy a different speaker if you want to Wow.

Jim Shearer

+1 to taking the speakers out of the cabinet and placing them on stands.

And are they also turned on their sides? Way bad idea!

I once tried placing my RTi6 on their sides on shelves (open, not in a cabinet.) That resulted in a loss of imaging and sound stage. Also tried them on shelves in up-right position: better, but still not good. Lesson learned: nothing good (sonically) ever came from placing bookshelf speakers on an actual bookshelf. Just like in real estate: location, location, location!

Cheers, Jim

treitz3

First off, nice entertainment stand ya' got there. Beautiful job!. Ok, here's what's going on. The center channel is too high for proper placement [issue #1] and the mains are inside a cabinet [issue #2]. Here's what I would suggest. Take the mains out and as suggested, place them on a makeshift stand for now sitting upright until you hit the best sound possible. Bring them in, out, toe them in toward your ears at the sweet spot until you got it. Next, take the center channel and bring it down to the same level, or as close as you possibly can to the height of the RTi6's. Then it will be easy to check to see if all drivers are operational.

Listen for a bit [moving just the speakers] on some of your favorite tracks until you get it to sound how you want. Whilst doing this, keep all tone controls and auto EQ's at flat. In other words, don't boost or attenuate any signals.

Now how does it sound?

Are you having to strain at all to hear voices out of the rig?

cfrizz

BINGO!:rolleyes:

Good God! When are people going to accept that in order to play & be heard properly that speakers CANNOT be stuffed into cabinets, covered over or be too damn small!

Don't get me wrong it LOOKS beautiful, but it's supposed to be about the sound & right now that cabinet & the height of the center channel is killing it.

If you want neat & tidy & get no sparkle...do it your way. But if you actually CARE about what music & HT is supposed to sound like get those speakers out in the open where they belong & bring the center down to where it can actually be heard! :rolleyes:

Jesus, this isn't rocket science! You've spent a ton of money to put together a TERRIFIC system, then you waste it by stuffing it in a cabinet for aesthetics.

VSchneider wrote: »

err... I think I see a problem... at least part of it.

have you tried to listen to your speakers outside of that cabinet, all 3 pointing at the ear level?

treitz3

Daggum. Chill Cathy. The man came for advice and he's getting it. No need to jump down his throat. You having a bad day or somethin'?

TECHNOKID

Erik Tracy wrote: »

Room size and layout, and your speaker placement will also effect the sound stage experience.

There are many variables at play here and without more specifics, the best we can do are the large 'shotgun' recommendations.

Can you tell us more about your room layout?

Just stirring the pot...

I really thing along those same lines also. Any room treathment? Have you tried to move your speakers in different locations?

TECHNOKID

Olilugo, georgous unit you made for your self, congrad on great woodworking skills. I agree with the pros, you are simply choking your speakers and probably the main reason for being muffled. You have to remember speakers are never fully front firing, there is dispersion and in this case you are boxing and thus muffling your speakers within your beautifull cabinet and the in-wall enclosure. Look at it very closely, over being boxed into the fine unit, they are also caved/squeesed in between 2 walls.

Do some testing as Treitz3 suggest, take them out of any enclosure, give them space, couple feet away from the walls. Move them in such a way to eventually get the best sound stage.

Speakers must be standing up tweeters up at hear level, your 2 fronts should make an invisible triangle with your hears. Repeating but the pros are right, drop that center to hear level (tweeter). This speaker should be just about dead center with your listening positing-hearing (both vertically and horizontally). Move your sitting position back and forth to find the best suitable. Do the crawling exersize with your sub at your sitting position and where the bass is best is actually where your sub should be located. Except for the carpetting, it looks lik the space has a lot of hard surface (gypse) which might need a little sound management, am I right?

Overall picture is best looking results but with pay backs being very poor audio quality.

cfrizz

No, I'm not having a bad day, but I apologize for being harsh. It just makes me a little crazy to see speakers so confined.

You guys are to blame for that. I have heard so much about WAF & them not wanting ANY evidence of having a HT system in plain view that when I see something like what's above all I can see is some shrew standing over poor Olilugo yelling HIDE THEM, HIDE THEM, HIDE THEM!:eek:

Until I joined this forum, I thought that if Bose could make such small speakers that could as good as mine, good for them!:eek: Then I learned & HEARD better!:D

treitz3 wrote: »

Daggum. Chill Cathy. The man came for advice and he's getting it. No need to jump down his throat. You having a bad day or somethin'?