Are Pre-Amp's really that good?

Early B.

madmax wrote: »

I've known a given preamp to add dynamic excitement by matching the input/output impedances better than another preamp did while remaining neutral. And, to pass the signal without change is one tough thing to do, even for a passive.
madmax

What does the term, "neutral" actually mean? There's no way to know if a pre is truly "neutral." If there's a pre in the mix (or any other component or cable in the signal path), it's gonna add (or subtract) something to the sound. Besides, even if a pre could pass a signal without change, is that always a good thing?

organ

madmax wrote: »

I've known a given preamp to add dynamic excitement by matching the input/output impedances better than another preamp did while remaining neutral. And, to pass the signal without change is one tough thing to do, even for a passive.
madmax

That has been my experience as well. I didn't realize this until I had a bunch of pre amps at the same time to play with. I've also heard some tube pre/ss amp combo that sounds quite bad even though it seems like a good combo.

The passive route is great but there is a loss of dynamics. Using very efficient speakers (98db/w/m and up) will help quite a bit.

Finding the one that has the most dynamics and still sound "neutral" to me was the hardest thing to do. I've finally found one that I'm extremely happy with.




Early,
I think there is quite a range when describing "neutral". What sounds "neutral" is personal but at the same time we can all agree, for example, how Mullard 12A*7 tubes sound warm and something like EH is "bright". Or how everyone agrees that Dynaco pre's sound warm and something like Sonic Frontiers would be bright. So the personal preferences for neutral could be right between those extremes.

For me, neutral means the sound has natural timbre. Where to my ears, it sounds more pure as in I feel that nothing was added. So there is probably a wide grey area for "neutral".
Oh man, I hope this makes sense. I'm kinda trashed right now.

heiney9

organ wrote: »

That has been my experience as well. I didn't realize this until I had a bunch of pre amps at the same time to play with. I've also heard some tube pre/ss amp combo that sounds quite bad even though it seems like a good combo.

The passive route is great but there is a loss of dynamics. Using very efficient speakers (98db/w/m and up) will help quite a bit.

Finding the one that has the most dynamics and still sound "neutral" to me was the hardest thing to do. I've finally found one that I'm extremely happy with.

I'll agree w/ all but the statement about passive having a loss of dynamics. That can be the case in some instances and certainly mating a passive pre is much more difficult than an active pre. But I find myself running my pre is passive mode quiet a bit lately. If I had to choose between (1) active or passive, I'd go active..................but passive can be rewarding with the right synergy and the right source material. I really like the fact that I can choose either w/ my pre-amp.

H9

ben62670

With my latest DAC passive has been the way to go. Ask my neighbors if it is lacking in dynamics;) Again synergy is a ****.

Face

I agree, I have a passive in my Tannoy rig and it is anything but thin or lacking in dynamics. But passives haven't fared as well in my other two rigs.

Conradicles

Early B. wrote: »

Save yourself the aggravation and buy an integrated amp.

No kidding. Especially in my price range.

This Jolida 1501RC Hybrid 100wpc int amp looks interesting.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1247791428&/Jolida-1501RC-Hybrid

organ

Looks like you guys are having better luck than me with passives. The most dynamics I can get out of mine would be on a pair of 104db/w/m speakers. Maybe amps with higher input imp will help.

Ern Dog

I agree that "nuetral" can be subjective. I went from a $300 entry level tube preamp to a $1200 tube preamp and the difference was that the more expensive pre added lots more weight while the entry level one made my system sound thin in comparison. Secondly, music sounded way more open and sounded choked/constricted with the cheap pre. Those were the biggest differences, but the improvements encompassed everything to increased air, bigger soundstage, more 3-D image, etc. The advantage to a tube pre is that you can tweak it to sound warm or detailed.

organ

That's the cool thing with tube gear. Having different sets of tubes and having the ability to "tune" your sound is a lot of fun. Glad to hear you're enjoying the new pre.

madmax

organ wrote: »

Looks like you guys are having better luck than me with passives. The most dynamics I can get out of mine would be on a pair of 104db/w/m speakers. Maybe amps with higher input imp will help.

It has gone both ways for me. It all depends on the output of the source vs the input of the amp. My current setup has all the dynamics I could ever want with a passive although I still use my powered preamp just because its so cool, and I already own it... I guess I'm still not a pure purest.
madmax

treitz3

Conradicles wrote: »

Guys and Gals, I keep reading and hearing about how big of a difference a good Pre can make.

How does a rookie like me learn to shop for Pre-amps?

Are numbers and specs good to look for, or should I just trust positive reviews?

Thanks to all.:)

A pre can give one more than they ever thought possible, up to and including a sonic difference that a new speaker purchase would make. No, I'm not kidding either.

Now, that's not to say that everybody can go out and purchase a pre and expect to hear such a dramatic difference. I started out way back in the day with a plethora of pre's that would make subtle changes to no change at all. Now, of course, all of my other gear during this was slowly or quickly changed out over the years which might make my experiences not exactly match that of others....but....their were two that stood out amongst the crowd.

The first one was a Denon integrated introduced into my rig about a decade ago. What a refreshing change...that was more than welcome back then. It was the type of change that made you want to listen to your entire album collection again just to hear those things that were always there, just not audible or as dynamic as they were before.

That said, I went into dedicated pre's [forgot how many] and ended up with the best sounding one I could afford. That was a Carver C-16 pre which was Bob's top of the line, non-tubed pre [without including the esoteric Carver's]. Now, please note that with all of the one's I went through after the Denon did the same as before. They would make subtle changes to no change at all.

Enter the Dodd MLP. That was the pre that taught me just how important a pre actually can be. No subtle difference this time, no minor changes whatsoever. Almost every single aspect of the rig came alive. The sound stage, dynamics, natural roll offs, imaging, spatial clues, tones [I could go on for quite a while here....], etc. all changed and they all changed for the better. Things that I wouldn't have ever thought could happen......well, happened. For example, sitting off axis or just listening while not in the sweet spot. The sound was no longer concentrated only in the sweet spot. Some of the frequencies that were limited to the sweet spot were now being delivered 15 feet off axis. THAT was a total surprise and completely unexpected.

The main difference that blew my mind was that when you did sit down in the sweet spot, everything had changed. Everything. I even had a guy come and listen to the rig a couple of days ago that after a couple of seconds of the song starting with him sitting in the sweet spot, he turned around and told me "The hairs on the back of my neck just stood straight up". That's the very first time I have ever had someone say that but I knew it was true because the same thing happened to me at the very same time.....and I was off axis.

I will never again underestimate the power or importance of a pre. Never again.

I'm not a percentages kind of guy but I once had someone tell me that a pre can give you between 5% to 30% of your music. I have always doubted his statement, given my years of experience with different pre's but this one pre offered more to my rig than 30%, without a doubt. I've known for some time that my pre was my weak link but based upon my experience over the years, I had not one clue that it was that bad of a weak link.

As for shopping for a pre? My recommendation would be to get your ears on whatever you would be interested in getting. Either that or find someone who will offer you the chance to put the pre you may be interested in in your rig for a short stint. Just FYI, if I went and got the various components in my rig just based off reviews? I feel that I wouldn't have the sound I have now, in fact I would venture to say that I wouldn't even be close to where I am at now. Like I said, get your ears on some stuff if at all possible.

If you would like, I'll invite you down here to my pad and let you listen to exactly what difference a pre can make. That way, you can make your own educated decision as to how much difference a pre can make. Just say the word bro'!

ben62670

Tom can LM borrow your Dodd next week?

BTW that pre at my house was friggen amazing. It did totally change the way I looked at Pre's. It wasn't just the tone, but the ability of the musicians to be placed in the room even when you were not in the sweet spot. George's Bellas is real sweet too:) Any chance you can come down the 29th?

treitz3

As for me coming down, maybe. It depends on whether we are awarded a bid for a rather large job. That will be known either tonight or tomorrow, most likely tomorrow. I hear through the grapevine that you are wanting to do a head to head with a certain pre and the Dodd. Am I hot or cold?

Eric, would you be interested in a certain Dodd ELP? If it hasn't sold yet [which I will find out soon enough], it's right in your price range and a pretty darned sweet pre if I do say so myself. Not only that, it falls right in line with your price range. I bought one from GD to hook a local brother up and when I asked whether or not he liked it? He said with a huge smile "OH YEAH!". Then I couldn't shut him up because he kept going on about how much he likes his rig now.......anyhoo, food for thought.

Conradicles

Tom, that is such good info bro. Thanks for taking the time to post your experience.

I definitely want to come down in the near future and hear some tunes with that pre in the mix.

Conradicles

I would be interested in the Dodd ELP when my birthday cash gets here in July. I'll keep in touch, but by all means don't hold it for me.