Slow death of high-end audio

nspindel

I'll spare the details because it's all in another thread, but I was in an audio shop today canceling an order on a Parasound Halo A21. Got into a discussion with the sales guy who helped me, a bit of an old-timer in audio sales, about how from a mainstream standpoint, nobody cares about quality any more. Nice guy, we were talking about how the ipod revolution and the home-theater-in-a-box products have really made people numb to the quality of gear.

This was a shop that, back in the day, used to have multiple listening rooms with all different brands of kit, and I'd have fun just going in there and listening. Now there's one little room with the stuff that anyone reading this post would even consider looking at. All the other space has been dedicated to widescreen tv's.

Again, I won't get into the details because I'm blabbing about it in another thread, but I asked the guy why they don't sell Krell? It's a shop in Connecticut, we're maybe an hour from Krell headquarters. He just laughed and said, "You must be kidding. And sell it to who???"

So sad....

markmarc

The mom and pop high end shops have had a tough decade that's for sure. Almost all the ones left have gone heavy into HT with installation being the money maker. I do know of some 2 channel shops that have prospered. They sell used gear on consignment, and one even has remastered music nights, acoustic music performances, along with wine and cheese tasting to bring in traffic.

nspindel

Yup. This shop is big into installations now, that's for sure.

Interesting way to bring in traffic to the shop - live performances, wine and cheese, etc. Maybe pull in a little cash to pay the rent, but how many people are walking out at the end of the night with new high-end gear?

oifvet0608

I may be a little too young (26) to have really enjoyed the audio revolution back in the day but I even started to notice it when HTIB's were really getting popular back in 2000 or so and I was selling for CC. I was a floor manager in 2001 and I would occasionally get in an old timer (40's LOL) who knew what they were talking about and we would talk for hours sometimes about the death of fisher and sherwood etc...

Makes me sad to think that people buy the crap that is in one box for $500 and think it's the $hit, some stuff I have seen sounds ok for small rooms (Infinity HTS, Polk RM etc).

I don't think my wife has ever heard a quality floorstanding speaker, and she asks me why I have to spend $3000 on a rig. I told her that's bargain bin compared to what is out there.

mantis

It's been happening for a very long time but high end audio is still hanging on.

With Dolby HD and DTS MA is bringing high quality into the theater. People are still buying good quality gear.

2 channel isn't dead yet. But it's really going down hill. I work for a used to be 2 channel first shop. We still care very deeply about good quality 2 channel but multichannel is where it's at. Whole house music is what people care about more now. Most people would rather have sound all over the house then in 1 room with a impressive system. but what's cool about house music is you can do it pretty damn good with good quality speakers and get a very enjoyable experience.

What we also try to do for most of our customers is give there theater a good 2 channel experience as well. We believe in a impressive sub and good quality matching system. This all brings us close to being 2 channel.

O and by the way, we have big boy KRELL sitting in our 2 channel room. NICE!!!!

Dan

Retro152

Noticed the same thing with my local hi-fi shop over the year's. Wall to wall Lcd's and Plasma's in the main showroom, a small but decent sized room dedicated to I-pod gear and laptop's. Receiver's, components', and speaker's stuffed in corner's throughout. Small, and dark at the rear of the store is the audio/video room, dust everywhere, a graveyard of speaker's and sub's.:(

sucks2beme

My favorite joint still has a lot of 2 channel. ARC, Boulder, Linn, Rega, Rotel,
Spendor,Maggies,Nad ,Paradigm, Proac,Wilson,ETC.
And it semms to be hanging in there. Their trade in stuff is first rate.
That's what keeps me coming back. Most of the rest are HT first.

fatchowmein

Is the decline in Hi-Fi audio just a function of mp3, iPod, and HTiB or something larger and more complex? What happened to all the folks who were into hi-fi? Did they grow old and die without passing their knowledge and enthusiasm on?

When I walk into an electronics store, I'm mostly confronted by sales people pushing extended warranty. I'd be lucky if they knew and can find what was on that week's sales ad. I see LCD's and some plasma's on display but I have yet to see an overwhelming Dolby HD/DTS MA exhibit. Instead, I see tiny speakers hooked up in various state of defect or off.

Yeah, I hear you. I need to walk into a specialty shop but how many non audiophiles are going to make the conversion? If the trend is going to change, I fear it has to be done at the local mass market shops like Best Buy, Target, or Walmart. How do you get those guys excited about audio? Do we have to wait until TV sales have saturated and 80% of homes run 1080P so folk start to look for better sound than the speakers attached to their TV? The folks excited about their new HTiB are probably comparing it to their TV speakers. How do we educate them about 5.1 coming from speakers weighing 80+ pounds and amps requiring at least two people to carry? When do they get a chance to HEAR the difference???

Speaking of 80lb speakers, have we as a nation max'd ourselves out to the point where it's just not feasible to purchase a $1500 LCD and $2000 worth of speakers, receiver, amp, etc? Is the two income family with a mortage, 2 car loans, education loans, and consumer debt just not willing to save up for a 5.1 set of speakers that they've never heard when Best Buy is advertising a $300 HTiB? How did some of you guys afford the gear you did on the income you made back in the 70's and 80's?

One trend I'm somewhat excited about is the rise of LP's (?I heard Walmart may start carrying them?). I'm hoping this translates to folks upgrading their gear and spending time researching and listening to music on various systems. Ultimately, the masses need to get their ears on mid-fi first.


Bah! I haven't said anything new that hasn't already been mentioned before.

dougy

The situation today is certainly a far cry from what it was back in the seventies. I couldn't count how many stereo shops I've seen close over the years.

Do people enjoy music less? I don't think so. They just enjoy it...different. Instead of sitting in front of two speakers, they like the idea of having music throughout the house. I think they just don't "get" the sweet spot. This is the average consumer I'm talking about, not the true-blue audiophile. I think a lot of sales at the stereo shops of old were going to people who were never really audiophiles, anyway. So you could say the audiophile population was never really what people may think it was, "back in the day". It might also be accurate to say that the "audiophile experience" has just not transferred to the mass market. They've found something they like better: whole-house audio, I-pods and wave radios! those things just suit the way most people want to listen to music.

And then there's the competition factor. After all, the pie is only so big. The bigger you cut one slice, the smaller the others have to be; the more slices there are, the smaller they all have to be. Back in the seventies, there was not all the competition for consumer dollars from video games and home video that there is now, so that is siphoning off a lot of money that might otherwise have been spent on audio.

Two more contibuting factors: lousy sounding music recordings and Bose ads! Why spend serious money on equipment when so many recordings sound like crap? They seem to be made with the eye on maximizing volume at all costs, squishing the life right out. And everyone is fed a steady diet of Bose ads that equate traditional two-channel audio components to old-fashioned and needlessly complicated technology.

apphd

Wow, some really good comments here. I've always been a mid-fi guy with the dreams of hi-fi but not the budget. There was a time when I was single when I had the income and should have made some investments in hi-fi, but unfortunately was young and stupid and spent my money on booze and woman. Which was:D and now in hind site :mad: Another thing I think is the buy up and merging of smaller companies started by people that truly loved audio, by the corporate world. Not that the small ones weren't in it to make money, they were happy to make a good profit while delivering good product. With the corporate approach it's just numbers. How to keep the investors and board happy with not just good, but maximized profits with quality only as good as needed to make the numbers. No pride, just numbers. CD then i-pod have added to this without doubt because they offer some decent sound per dollar with convenience. Before there was pretty much junk and hi-fi, now the youth can have something above junk but below hi-fi that is in their price range. Maybe some marketers could put some numbers to it but I think the youth demographic has the highest amount of disposable income for toys. With the growth of mid-fi that huge gap between junk and hi-fi is filled with lots of product. With the new speed of society (internet, email, texting, CNN, fax etc. etc.) there is no desire to wait and save for that dream system. So no peers to drool over their gear and say "someday I will have something that good". Or no pears to even have the opportunity to hear hi-end.

Braddles

I think all the above has some very good insite to how things have changed over the years in what people want and what is available.

When i bought my first 2 channel system 20 years ago (Luxman & Polk) there was no surround sound stuff. The shop i got it from had 5 different rooms with different price level equipment in each. That shop today still has a fair bit of high end gear but more HT setups than 2 channel.

Having said that some of the shops i go into from time to time are making room for more 2 channel listening. It has made a bit of a come back here in Australia to the point the shops are stocking more dedicated hi-fi components.

But your correct that the big names are rare. Just too expensive. With companies like Cambridge Audio making some good sounding stuff at a resonable price, most people will not see (hear) enough difference to spend 2,3 or 4 time the money to get the krells and alike. Even Musical Fedelity stuff comes from china now. In an effort to stay competetive price wise im sure.

As for me? Well i went down the Ht track for a while but couldnt see what all the fuss is about. Im happy watching a movie in 2 channel.

wingnut4772

I do know that I am seeing vinyl in Best Buy for the first time. What does that mean? I don't know how long it will last but it seems that there is still and interest. Even a resurging one.

cnh

Here's another factor...I think. HEAVY MULTI-TASKING. Let's take the typical youth whose attention span is on the 'decrease'. What is he/she doing...all-at-once--listening to some MP3s off a hard drive, while running some AOL type Messenger continuously on a laptop...and maybe a film on another LCD in the room at the same time their gaming on an XBOX...and intermittently twittering and searching the web for cool youtube vids, etc. If you're so scattered what does it MATTER HOW GOOD OR BAD YOUR SOUND SYSTEM is? And your certainly not worried about high end two channel--your senses are ALREADY being overloaded by visual, textual and aural inputs FROM EVERY direction.

Do you think that ANY of US could stop to actually "hear" a good two channel rig in such a ROOM!

In such a MATRIX your consciousness threatens to become a part of the mulitmedia space that it LIVES in...to disappear into it with no thought, no critical thought..and just one desire....to be STIMULATED in as MANY different ways as POSSIBLE. QUANTITY NOT QUALITY BECOMES THE GOAL!

cnh

madmax

I'm thinking high end audio has always been in a very limited selling group. I bet there are way more "high end" dealers around now than there were any time previous. Except of course there used to be a lot of midrange stuff sold everywhere back in the day. (pioneer seperates and such).
madmax

zingo

The Speaker Lab shop by my place has even gotten into car audio to try to keep their 2 channel sales afloat; along with the HT stuff of course.

Systems

zingo wrote: »

The Speaker Lab shop by my place

Wow their still in buisness?I haven't heard tell of them for a long time.Back in the 80's they were one of the few sources for DIY design info and parts.

mhardy6647

Plenty of resources for DIY!

www.tubesandmore.com
www.madisound.com
www.partsconnexion.com

to mention a few...

cnh

zingo wrote: »

The Speaker Lab shop by my place has even gotten into car audio to try to keep their 2 channel sales afloat; along with the HT stuff of course.

We have a guy in Maine that pretty much does the same...a HUGE business in Auto...installs allows him to keep a few more upscale items on hand. Seems to have 'saved' his business.

cnh

Systems

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Plenty of resources for DIY!

Yes things have improved for DIY'ers,but back the 80's there were not many places selling drivers and crossover parts.

zingo

The Speaker Lab shop said that they are going to be getting in brand new kits this summer that will keeping the heritage. Plus, you can still bring in any of your old speakers and they will fix them any which way.

madmax

GV#27 wrote: »

Yes things have improved for DIY'ers

Not to mention tube equipment and turntables. Even a few years ago we had almost no choice in new equipment for either one. This is truely a unique time for high end.

zingo

Sorry to brag a little more, but there is a show across the street from Speaker Lab called Hawthorn Stereo that sells great HIFI, analog, and tube equipment, as well as used gear.

(Or you could go up the street to the Magnolia HIFI or Definitive Audio if either of those shops didn't fit your bill )

TECHNOKID

The question should be this; will HI-FI die with us baby boomers or will the new generation get into it? As pointed out, HTIB, ipod and all seems to be the hobby of this newer generation, will they actually move up into high quality gear or simply stall with the new toys and bring HI-FI to a halt?

apphd

TECHNOKID wrote: »

The question should be this; will HI-FI die with us baby boomers or will the new generation get into it? As pointed out, HTIB, ipod and all seems to be the hobby of this newer generation, will they actually move up into high quality gear or simply stall with the new toys and bring HI-FI to a halt?

That's a good question. Unfortunately it's not just hi-fi. Hunting, fishing, trying to earn some money. I can't believe I'm saying this because it makes me sound like my father, but the youth and young of today are just going to he!! in a hand basket.;) Around my home town there are no paper boys (early morning paper has a lot to do with that) the paper is delivered by an adult in a car. I have not had a knock on my door to see if I wanted my yard mowed or sidewalk shoveled in probably 20 years. I like to do it myself anyway but that's not the point. Just a sign of the times I guess playing video games and hanging out takes priority over other things I grew up with. Will that be the end of hi-fi? I don't know, I don't think so. As others have said look at the resurgence of vinyl.

Ender

Also, I find there's a severely reduced number of hobbyists... in any hobby besides video games, television, and movies (obviously).

In my opinion, I think it's the competitiveness of today's economy that forces kids to strictly stay at home or start working early without school so that they can hit manager while they are still somewhat young. And you know when you're a kid, if you work, you want to play twice as much which drives video games and movies and television way more than hobbies (since hobbies take work to have fun).

RyanJoz

I'm 24 and just purchased some A9's and I am working my way up the ladder. I hope to have 1.2 TL's sometime soon when I buy a house. It will be much easier once the engineering salary kicks in......It has not died with me and many of my friends admire my gear which is mediocre at best compared to a lot of you on here....but hey I'm 24 and the 9's were a graduation gift from the fiance, parents, and a little of my own.

Serendipity

markmarc wrote: »

The mom and pop high end shops have had a tough decade that's for sure. Almost all the ones left have gone heavy into HT with installation being the money maker.

What's so bad about 2 channel shops going HT? You can listen to music in 5.1 over a good system, most concert DVD's are multichannel and so is DVD-A/SACD. Plus most HD cable has at least one good HD music channel.

BTW, HT is what got me into 2 channel - I still enjoy the live symphony's, concert DVD's, and orchestra vids over a pair of good speakers even if it's on a 5.1 system.

TECHNOKID

It has not died with me and many of my friends admire my gear

Out of those friends that admire your gear, would you say the majority are attracted by quality sound or would you say most of them are more attracted by ipods, games and other new gadgets available nowadays?

That's a good question. Unfortunately it's not just hi-fi. Hunting, fishing, trying to earn some money. I can't believe I'm saying this because it makes me sound like my father, but the youth and young of today are just going to he!! in a hand basket. Around my home town there are no paper boys (early morning paper has a lot to do with that) the paper is delivered by an adult in a car. I have not had a knock on my door to see if I wanted my yard mowed or sidewalk shoveled in probably 20 years. I like to do it myself anyway but that's not the point. Just a sign of the times I guess playing video games and hanging out takes priority over other things I grew up with. Will that be the end of hi-fi? I don't know, I don't think so. As others have said look at the resurgence of vinyl.

Your post addresses many more issues than the simple subject at hand but maybe somewhat related however, I'll try to stick with the subject at hand.

The resurgence of vinyl is good point/food for tought. However, the question is; Is it actually a come back or simply a niche for retro that is again wanted by the baby boomers? Maybe a poll on vinyl showing age would be interesting? All in all, we have to realise that HI-FI/HI-END never really was masses adoption. Generally speaking, I would think the masses always were comptempt with low to mid grade audio and/or video gear due to budget and/or family prioties/concerns. One thing for sure, digital was suppose to be such an upgrade/breakthrough in quality when audio and video are concerned. I personnally think it might be thrue for video but the total opposite when it comes to audio.

I don't think we could really blame this new generation of gamers and gadgets lovers since it actually our generation that led them down that route. Throw away technolgy, portable gadgets readily available at dirt cheap price were the main reasons I closed my shop. People would have second toughts getting their half decent gear repaired and were leaning toward buying cheap junk with 1 year warranty. With all the Chinese electronic garbage that goes into most of our gear today (even the so called high end names), can we really say that HIGH-END/HI-FI still exist? The fact that a brand name is on the gear is NO garantee that the gear is of quality or hi fidelity.

TECHNOKID

appadv wrote: »

What's so bad about 2 channel shops going HT? You can listen to music in 5.1 over a good system, most concert DVD's are multichannel and so is DVD-A/SACD. Plus most HD cable has at least one good HD music channel.

BTW, HT is what got me into 2 channel - I still enjoy the live symphony's, concert DVD's, and orchestra vids over a pair of good speakers even if it's on a 5.1 system.

I personnally don't think there is anything wrong with multi channel, I simply see it as an improvement. You can still listen in two channels when required anyway. HT or multichannel simply gives more versatility to a system (unless of course one prefers to have 2 separate rigs).

cnh

Some unbelievably High-End products are being manufactured in China these days. And Chinese are very very very good at reverse manufacturing....they're beginning to rival the Japanese. And we all remember what happened to our electronics when the Japanese figured it out! I believe that China is going to become the high end manufacturing hub...if it isn't already that.

Have you seen the high end Lenovos (former IBM Thinkpads now fully made in China?)

cnh

dorokusai

Hi-Fi is dead...has been for awhile.