IC Cables: Difference Between Source Cables And Amp/Preamp Cables?

ben62670

WilliamM2 wrote: »

The posters here and the seller, have given you many possible reasons why you didn't hear a difference, except for the most likely reason, and the one supported by all known scientific research. There is no difference in the sound of wires. They won't even consider the possibility.

Why let them lead you astray any longer? It's a waste of time and money. Focus your energy on areas that really will make a difference, and don't require an overactive imagination.

I can always get a kick out of your cable posts. Again I think some just can't hear a difference(I do find it hard to believe...) and some can. Back to my wine analogy. I can't tell the difference between good wine and excellent wine.
Thanks again Bill for your fairy tail beliefs that science has figured out how to measure everything. Yes I have had cables sound the same, and I have had cables sound good in one system, but not in another.
Ben
Ben

hearingimpared

You can go the way of Williamm2 but you will be depriving yourself of the excitement and enjoyment you will be getting out of your rig by using good ICs and speaker wires. I am so into my rig now that I have completed it with MIT ICs and MIT speaker wires.

WilliamM2

I can always get a kick out of your cable posts.

Thanks, I get a kick out of yours too. I really like it when you imply that because science hasn't figured out everything, they must not have figured out anything.

And it doesn't take any measurements to see if there is a difference in cables. Just a single successful blind test, demonstrating that someone, somewhere, could tell a difference. I still wonder why that hasn't happened yet.

BTW Ben, there have been several blind taste tests of wine, where the participants were able to identify the wine simply by taste. Not everyone can do it, but at least some have demonstrated they have the ability, unlike cables. So I guess that analogy falls flat.

tcrossma

WilliamM2 wrote: »

BTW Ben, there have been several blind taste tests of wine, where the participants were able to identify the wine simply by taste. Not everyone can do it, but at least some have demonstrated they have the ability, unlike cables. So I guess that analogy falls flat.

Is this true?

What about something like this: http://tech.yahoo.com/blog/null/65929

hearingimpared

With all due respect William how do you know that there have been no sucessful double blind tests? I'm not being a wiseguy here but is there a clearinghouse or central location that reports on such tests?

Freak When C

WilliamM2 wrote: »

The posters here and the seller, have given you many possible reasons why you didn't hear a difference, except for the most likely reason, and the one supported by all known scientific research. There is no difference in the sound of wires. They won't even consider the possibility.

Why let them lead you astray any longer? It's a waste of time and money. Focus your energy on areas that really will make a difference, and don't require an overactive imagination.

I know that if there was truly no difference in sound then this is one of the biggest scams I've ever heard of. Science cant explain all. But you're saying they have proof? Show me the research that proves "There is no difference in the sound of wires."

Can you guys briefly explain the wires I'm seeing that have 48v DBS and 72v DBS packs in the wire? What would constitute the need for these and am I better off avoiding these types of wires for now?

Rocco1

I dont think that doing tests in a lab in a isolated sitution proves anything.
You need to take things in the home and be the judge. THERE ARE CABLES BETTER THAN OTHERS! Some sheild from external interfernce better, some are better quailty (silver and gold) and conduct sound at all freq. better. If William hasnt heard the difference yet than he must be living in the perfect living enviorment.

I know that my system has definitly benefited from upgraded cables. I have cleaner sound, lost some buzzing and hums, and get better bass. I didnt do any scientific testing but i think my ears are good enough to tell.

ben62670

I wouldn't spend tons of money on DBS cables. Your system would have to be very high resolution, and just because they are expensive I wouldn't say they would be the best in your system. Look more at the type of insulation, and the wire construction. I like Teflon insulation, and solid conductor wire. Cheap insulation sucks the life out of cables, and collapses sound stage. Heavy gage IC's with lots of fine stranded wire tend to give good bass, and filter the highs. If you use two cables with the same type of construction they will sound the same. My first two real trials were with Kimber PBJ's and some Straight Wire Encore II's. Bottom line is buy used, and sell them if they don't improve your system. I love AQ speaker wires, but I am fairly disappointed with some of their cheaper IC's in my system.

F1nut

And it doesn't take any measurements to see if there is a difference in cables. Just a single successful blind test, demonstrating that someone, somewhere, could tell a difference. I still wonder why that hasn't happened yet.

Actually, there were a couple of audio reviewers at CES that both scored 100% correct at a blind cable test. Not that it matters because blind tests are worthless.

Now back to the question of the blinded testing. Here is what the now publisher (Robert Harley) of one of the major magazines wrote a few years ago....


Quote:
Blind tests nearly universally appear to indicate that no differences exist between electronics, cables, capacitors, etc. In fact, one infamous test "revealed" that no sonic differences exist between power amplifiers. Mark Levinson, NYAL Futterman OTL tube monoblock, NAD, Hafler, and Counterpoint power amplifiers were all judged to be sonically identical to each other and to a $219 Japanese receiver (footnote 7). This very test, wielded by the objectivists as proof that all amplifiers sound alike, in fact calls into question the entire blind methodology because of the conclusion's absurdity. Who really believes that a pair of Futterman OTL tube amplifiers, a Mark Levinson, and a Japanese receiver are sonically identical? Rather than bolster the objectivist's case, the "all amplifiers sound the same" conclusion of this blind test in fact discredits the very methodology on which hangs the objectivist's entire belief structure.

If differences do exist between components, why don't blind tests conclusively establish the audibility of these differences? I believe that blind listening tests, rather than moving us toward the truth, actually lead us away from reality.

First, the preponderance of blind tests have been conducted by "objectivists" who arrange the tests in such a way that audible differences are more difficult to detect. Rapid switching between components, for example, will always make differences harder to hear. A component's subtleties are not revealed in a few seconds or minutes, but slowly over the course of days or weeks. When reviewing a product, I find that I don't really get to know it until after several weeks of daily listening. Toward the end of the review process, I am still learning aspects of the product's character. Furthermore, the stress of the situation—usually an unfamiliar environment (both music and playback system), adversarial relationship between tester and listener, and the prospect of being ridiculed—imposes an artificiality on the process that reduces one's sensitivity to musical nuances.

Going beyond the nuts and bolts of blind listening tests, I believe they are fundamentally flawed in that they seek to turn an emotional experience—listening to music—into an intellectual exercise. It is well documented that musical perception takes place in the right half of the brain and analytical reasoning in the left half. This process can be observed through PET (Positron-Emission Tomography) scans in which subjects listening to music exhibit increased right-brain metabolism. Those with musical training show activity in both halves of the brain, fluctuating constantly as the music is simultaneously experienced and analyzed. Forcing the brain into an unnatural condition (one that doesn't occur during normal music listening) during blind testing violates a sacrosanct law of science: change only one variable at a time. By introducing another variable—the way the brain processes music—blind listening tests are rendered worthless.

heiney9

This is quite old and it really doesn't answer the $1M question. But it is a little thought provoking and seems to have a fair and neutral approach. This article was written right about the time different cables were staring to be offered because of demand.

Remember this...as it's important. The trend started because of demand from the audiophile NOT as way to perpetuate snake oil (to put it in the words of cable naysayers)

http://passlabs.com/pdf/articles/spkrcabl.pdf

Again take it for what it's worth a discussion about cables. It's an old article and I'm sure testing methods and equipment have advanced as much as the cables themselves. The approach is what perks my interest. It's not really trying to prove or disprove anything............just presenting some facts and then some ideas why/how those facts came about.

H9

P.s. It also talks in depth about inductance/resistance/capacitance which most if not all cable naysayers don't seem to understand at all.

WilliamM2

tcrossma wrote: »

Is this true?

What about something like this: http://tech.yahoo.com/blog/null/65929

Did you read the Wall Street article? This was not a DBT to see if they could tell them apart. They listened to both cables, and picked the one they preferred. The results? 61% picked the monster cable. That's no better than random chance. Whoever picked the monster was considered "correct".

http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB120044692027492991-Po6L667z7U6W9ZfTfXBmeCKlV80_20080214.html

WilliamM2

hearingimpared wrote: »

With all due respect William how do you know that there have been no sucessful double blind tests? I'm not being a wiseguy here but is there a clearinghouse or central location that reports on such tests?

Well maybe they are keeping it secret, but usually it would be published in one of the technical/science jounals after it had passed peer review. If you find one, let me know.

NJPOLKER

You guys have to know by know that there is NO difference in speaker cables and IC's.
Just do a forum search on the subject.

WilliamM2

Actually, there were a couple of audio reviewers at CES that both scored 100% correct at a blind cable test. Not that it matters because blind tests are worthless.

I've seen you cliam this a few times before, yet you never offer any links where some of us could read about it.

hearingimpared

WilliamM2 wrote: »

They listened to both cables, and picked the one they preferred. The results? 61% picked the monster cable. That's no better than random chance. Whoever picked the monster was considered "correct".

I think it stands to reason then that 61% heard a difference when the equipment was wired with Monster and liked what they heard which makes the point that people can hear a difference in cables as well as prefer the sound of one over another whether it was DBT or not. No?

WilliamM2

hearingimpared wrote: »

I think it stands to reason then that 61% heard a difference when the equipment was wired with Monster and liked what they heard which makes the point that people can hear a difference in cables as well as prefer the sound of one over another whether it was DBT or not. No?

No. 61% is no better than would be expected from chance. Now if the 61% that picked monster were tested a couple more times, and still picked the same cable every time, you might have something.

WilliamM2

I wondered when Kieko would start trolling this thread. Good to see you.

heiney9

So William is it your position that inductance, capacitance and resistance has no bearing on how the cable interacts with the amp and the speaker; therefore no matter what type of cable used there is no audible difference in sound characteristics because of the varying presence of the above three scientific properties of electricity?

The article I posted (again while insanely old) does break it down scientifically and pretty much states the 3 characteristics I mention do vary among wire and have an effect on the final output of a signal. Just because you choose not to hear it or can;t hear it doesn;t mean it isn;t there.

You've been yammering for a more scientific approach and I gave it to you. The only conclusion the article draws is that it is possible that some can hear differences in cables. Certainly not a 100% iron-clad fact, but neither are any of your, IMO, flimsy arguments any more proof that cables don;t matter.

H9

dpowell

I heard a difference with mine. No science needed to back that up.

WilliamM2

heiney9 wrote: »

So William is it your position that inductance, capacitance and resistance has no bearing on how the cable interacts with the amp and the speaker; therefore no matter what type of cable used there is no audible difference in sound characteristics because of the varying presence of the above three scientific properties of electricity?

No that's not my position. It is important to use the correct gauge for the job. Take the article you linked to, he used 18ga wire in 40 and 60 foot lengths to demonstrate the effect on frequency response. Obviously not the right wire for those lengths.

But if we measure Brand-X 12ga, and Brand-Y 12 ga, the differences will be below the threshold of audibility.

ben62670

OK 3 12ga cables.
1) 12ga solid
2) 12ga fine stranded
3) 12ga equivalent cat5
Please tell the nice people here at CP that they will all sound the same. We could all use a good laugh.

Thanks
Ben

dpowell

I just upgraded my speaker wire from Cat3 to Cat6. What an improvement!

Those would all sound the same to William.