ICE Amps...marketing hype or the real deal?

Falcon01

I found this on egadgethd.com with a link to the Audioholics review of the ICE amps. Interesting read...

There's plenty of good technical info about the test bench performance of these amps in the link, but with several happy ICEpower users it's hard to say that the subjective performance is unsatisfactory; the wide price range for essentially the same amp is what's troubling. If nothing else, let it serve as a cautionary tale of not falling for the latest thing just because it's the latest thing -- when you're shopping for an amp, take your ears along with your wallet.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/04/30/audioholics-peels-back-the-lids-on-the-current-crop-of-icepower/

Sherardp

Class D amps are the future. I read that review and it was ok. I love my D-Sonic and Pioneer Elites are awesome, all using B&O IceModules. My D-Sonic uses the 1000ASP modules and pushes my RTi12s on demand, no problems and does well when doing it. I see you have an amp purchase coming soon based on your signature line, definitely suggest you check out Class D. Check out the RDs

http://www.reddragonaudio.com/

cnh

Hearing is believing, of course and a watt is not a watt as many have said. So one can take the following data with a grain of salt.

But here is Home Theater Mags Bench test for a Pioneer SC-07 and a much cheaper Onkyo 805.


HT Labs Measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 120.9 watts
1% distortion at 150.5 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 106.1 watts
1% distortion at 135.2 watts

Analog frequency response in Pure Direct mode:
–0.08 dB at 10 Hz
–0.01 dB at 20 Hz
+0.30 dB at 20 kHz
–1.58 dB at 50 kHz

Analog frequency response with stereo signal processing:
–1.40 dB at 10 Hz
–0.40 dB at 20 Hz
+0.29 dB at 20 kHz
–2.40 dB at 50 kHz

Onkyo TX-SR805 A/V Receiver:
HT Labs Measures: Onkyo TX-SR805 A/V Receiver
HT Labs Measures: Onkyo TX-SR805 A/V Receiver
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1 percent distortion at 162.0 watts
1 percent distortion at 184.5 watts

All channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1 percent distortion at 120.4 watts
1 percent distortion at 151.7 watts

Analog frequency response in Pure Audio mode:
–0.07 dB at 10 Hz; –0.02 dB at 20 Hz
–0.03 dB at 20 kHz; –0.24 dB at 50 kHz

Analog frequency response with signal processing:
–0.34 dB at 10 Hz; –0.12 dB at 20 Hz
–0.43 dB at 20 kHz; –38.47 dB at 50 kHz

I've heard both amps...and I think the Pioneer is cleaner...but is it really any more powerful than the much lower cost Onkyo?

reeltrouble1

Ice the future? sure for some, but they do not sound better than class A amps to me, at least right now, I use one for my HT subs, lots of power and the sound is tight with an EQ card in the amp just for that sub speaker, of course SQ does not really matter much for subs. They offer convenience though.

Then there is the visual thing to consider.

RT1

Sherardp

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

Ice the future? sure for some, but they do not sound better than class A amps to me, at least right now, I use one for my HT subs, lots of power and the sound is tight with an EQ card in the amp just for that sub speaker, of course SQ does not really matter much for subs. They offer convenience though.

Then there is the visual thing to consider.

RT1

I'm almost willing to say you'll see them being used in AVRS more. I'm sure others will follow Pioneer which what I meant in previous post. Of course they won't take over the market but I'm sure others will buy into them as time and technology goes on.

mantis

Rotel's ICE amps are very nice and sound amazing. I was really shocked the first time i heard one go.

ICE is the future. It's the green amp man

Dan

disneyjoe7

mantis wrote: »

It's the green amp man

Dan

That just killed it for me.

Systems

The linked article is accurate,these companies are making like bandits dressing up inexpensive generic ICEPower modules and selling them for multi thousands of $ a copy.I use a small ICEmodule to drive a subwoofer and while it does an admirable job,IMO the repackaged units respresent poor value and are outclassed by good Class A and A/B designs.

It does however make alot of sense using these compact and cool running modules in multi channel HT recievers.

Braddles

I have a Bel Canto S300iu intergrated amp and thought is was great value for the money.

Plenty of power and detail and with a built in dac and usb port for my laptop. I can use it as a pre amp and it has HT pass through. It cost me $2500 (austalian dollars) with the Tunami power cord. Not too many class a amps around for that money.

Bel Canto have recently released some mark II models and from the reveiws i've read have made some more improvements.

Im happy with class D....................for now;)

Systems

Braddles wrote: »

Not too many class a amps around for that money.

You'll notice I also said Class A /B which broadens the choices considerably.But looking specifically at the mono Bel Canto ref 1000 with an MSRP of $2995 per ch and the Rowland at $4700 ea,there are many top notch candidates in the Class A and A/B category's.

Im happy with class D....................for now;)

Im using some Hypex and ICE Class D modules in my system and I quite like the results,in fact Hypex's sound far better than I was expecting.For me the choice was economical as I was able to get the raw DIY modules for very reasonable prices:D.(they were given to me).However given several thousand to spend on a pair of mono blocs I would be looking at something other than the repackaged ,high mark up ICE modules.

Braddles

GV#27 wrote: »

You'll notice I also said Class A /B which broadens the choices considerably.But looking specifically at the mono Bel Canto ref 1000 with an MSRP of $2995 per ch and the Rowland at $4700 ea,there are many top notch candidates in the Class A and A/B category's.


Im using some Hypex and ICE Class D modules in my system and I quite like the results,in fact Hypex's sound far better than I was expecting.For me the choice was economical as I was able to get the raw DIY modules for very reasonable prices:D.(they were given to me).However given several thousand to spend on a pair of mono blocs I would be looking at something other than the repackaged ,high mark up ICE modules.

Anyone in business will know that "profit" is not a dirty word. Some people do not like companies making money from their hobby. I suppose value for money is in the eye of the beholder. In other words its all about percieved value. Some people look at things like the Ref 1000's as good value for money when compared to others in their class but if you have the skills and know how to bypass the retail market and save some $'s then all power to you.

Others maybe dont or cant be bothered and are happy to buy something off the shelf.

Isnt have a choice a wonderfull thing.:)

As time goes on and more companies get into class d it will be interesting to see what happens to prices of these types of amps.

Systems

Braddles wrote: »

Anyone in business will know that "profit" is not a dirty word.

No its not and buisness's must make a reasonable profit.However when you know what is actually in these ICE clones the high mark ups of some companies do seem out of step considering that all the R &D (and module assembly) has already been done by B&O.Sure some companies change a few peripheral things to try and differeniate their version, but the core design in all these are the same.

As time goes on and more companies get into class d

I 'm sure that will be the case, hopefully there will be more companies like Spectron that develop their own proprietary designs vs using someone eles's generic module.

chumlie

Why don't I believe your from the United States.

Phish56466

SURE, they can deliver the power. BUT look at the THD that they CLAIM those figures at! As CNH said, a watt is not necessarily a watt. I'll take my Adcom GFA-555 at 200WPC(Gen II is listed at .01THD@10Khz@200WPC@8-I'm guessing the gen I is the same) OVER the Onkyo at 162WPC@8 with a .1%THD). You get what you pay for! Bells and whistles OR CLEAN power, that's a no brainer!

tonyb

5 year old thread gents....and class D hasn't taken over the world.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Phish56466 wrote: »

SURE, they can deliver the power. BUT look at the THD that they CLAIM those figures at! As CNH said, a watt is not necessarily a watt. I'll take my Adcom GFA-555 at 200WPC(Gen II is listed at .01THD@10Khz@200WPC@8-I'm guessing the gen I is the same) OVER the Onkyo at 162WPC@8 with a .1%THD). You get what you pay for! Bells and whistles OR CLEAN power, that's a no brainer!

THD has got to be one of the most overrated and misunderstood specs out there...

WLDock

....and most can't hear THD lower than 1% at higher freqs , 10% or higher at lower freqs with music, test signals, etc......and class D in multi-channel AVR's is an awesome implementation of the topology!

Jhayman

I have 2 friends that have a Pioneer SC-05 and the other has the SC-07 and they both swear by them and I actually like their Pioneers better than my Yamaha Aventage 2000 I have as the sound on the Pioneers just sound better IMO.

Toolfan66

I love my SC-07, and my W4S amps.


But I'm still saving for a Pass Labs... :-)

aboroth00

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

THD has got to be one of the most overrated and misunderstood specs out there...

Agreed. Otherwise no one would like tube gear :P. HORRIBLE THD!

FTGV

Old thread but the dudes post's 8,10and 12 still cover it for me.I hope to try an Ncore soon which is reputed to be a big step forward for Hypex.

Habanero Monk

FTGV wrote: »

Old thread but the dudes post's 8,10and 12 still cover it for me.

So you understand the same sentiment about cables... Members over at Parts Express are raving about Crowns DriveCore based amps. Be interesting to A/B with some classic AB amps and the Hypex.

F1nut

Habanero Monk wrote: »

So you understand the same sentiment about cables...

You mean your opinion based on no personal expereince? Yeah, like that.

nooshinjohn

F1nut wrote: »

You mean your opinion based on no personal expereince? Yeah, like that.

That one's gonna leave a mark...

No wonder Chuck Norris cuts Jesse a wide berth when they pass each other at the airport.

Habanero Monk

F1nut wrote: »

You mean your opinion based on no personal expereince? Yeah, like that.

You mean the Pangea AC14 that I had (Amazon) or the Audioquest Coffee that I had from Best Buy or the AQ Kingcobra's (XLR) from HCM Audio?

Then again when I was in Dayton for the Parts Express MidWest Fest no one here wanted to come out, enjoy a gtg, and have them pick out the AQ HDMI vs the BJC.

Not sure what it takes for any of you to man up.

FTGV

Habanero Monk wrote: »

So you understand the same sentiment about cables...

Sorry you'll need to speak more slowly,I'm not jiving with the cable angle.

Watch out Jesse I think the nooshjohn fella has a cyber man crush on you.

Habanero Monk

FTGV wrote: »

Sorry you'll need to speak more slowly,I'm not jiving with the cable angle.

It's understandable.

F1nut

I'm sorry, your extremely limited experience. So one power cord, an HDMI cable and a IC. Are we to take that you couldn't tell a difference with any of them? If so, why do you think that you couldn't and SO many others can?

Is Dayton in your back yard because it's not in mine.

Man up? Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, still waiting for you to catch up.

F1nut

Always the same with you Monk. Thread going along on topic and you have to open your mouth with some snide remark to stir the pot. There's a word that describes you, troll. Time for you to crawl back under your rock.

txcoastal1

Habanero Monk wrote: »

Be interesting to A/B with some classic AB amps and the Hypex.

I did a little A/B testing at LSAF last year in Soundfield Audio room with the Hypex. I have an SC-35 in my HT system, and I also own a pair of Operettas with class D modules that were highly regarded a few years ago at RMAF.

As a DIY Hypex is a cost effective light weight solution, or needing a lot of watt/value amp you can't go wrong with class D. Hell I even considered a build myself for a portable rig to carry out of town when I stay away month at a time. In the end I just prefer a good mosfet or class A designed amp....they usually have more soul.

headrott

Let's not forget, it matters as much what *gear* you are hooking the cables up to as well. Does your gear haven enough resolution and detail to hear the differences in cables. Or, does your projector/monitor and player have enough resolution to see the differences in HDMI cables.

Just as it matters what type (electrolytic Vs. film) of capacitors and what type and quality of resistors one puts on their crossover boards in their speakers.

You can have some great speakers, and if you replace the resistors and capacitors with terrible components, you are not going to hear what the spekaers are capable of and/or they are going to sound horrible.

Edit: And let's not forget one needs the listening *skills* to realise the differences in cables.