I hate to ask...but I am thinking of upgrading TT

thsmith

I have had my Technics SL-1300 for a couple of months now and I am definately staying with vinyl. I barely watch TV anymore and have not listened to digital music at all.

Anyway, getting the bug to upgrade and keep coming back to VPI Scout but at MSRP it is just out of my reach.

I am going to start calling some places and put the hard sell on them about how the economy is weak and so forth and see what the best price I can get, you never know.

Anyway, to my point.

The SL-1300 is the best TT I have ever owned and does sound good especially since adding the SHure 97 cart. A friend has a Rega P2 modded and it sounds good but his cart is 10 years old and his speakers are drastically different than my SDA-1Cs so it is hard for me to tell how much better a high end TT sounds over my TT.

How much better will something like the Scout sound over the SL?

Is it worth the bucks ?

In the $1400 range is what else should I seriously consider new or used ?

Sorry to ask such a newbie question but I have received excellent feedback and suggestions from some of you like Hearing and Billy on TTs and carts so I have to ask.

Thanks,

george daniel

I got an essentially new scout with a dyna xl-20 lomc (new) for about 1500.00,, just be patient and one will pop up on agon,, but move quickly,,when you see the one you want--pull the trigger fast--good luck,keep us posted.

ozzy21236

thsmith,
While my reply doesn't directly answer your question, I'd like ask if you have considered upgrading your phono stage. You would be suprised what an upgrade that can be . While a Scout would be a large upgrade over the SL1300 you have, you have yet to extract the potential of the Technics .
For about $375 , a Denon DL 160 and the CA 640p or for a bit more a Musical Fidelity x-lps v3 Phono Amp ,Project Tube Box ll or Jolida JD9A will provide a significant upgrade (imo) over the Shure paired with the Denon's phono stage.
Not trying to discourage your pursuit of the VPI ,just giving thought to a different upgrade path. There is something to be said for the ease of setup especially to a relatively vinyl newbie of the Technics tables with detachable headshells.
Good luck with your upgrade whatever you decide to do.

Russ

cnh

Not to get off topic but there's a vinyl question that's been driving me nuts. When I was a kid, the real audiophiles bought 'studio quality' reel-to-reel tape decks similar to the actual decks used to 'master' what eventually became vinyl--it's source, the original analog recording of the 'live' sound.

That being said, wouldn't it be the case that no matter how much one invested in a turntable, getting the master tape and running it on a R-t-R deck would really be the best of all possible analog worlds. So why isn't everyone running away from turntables and toward Tape-decks? I remember they even used to sell albums on reels?

Just call me curious and old but not too 'old'?

cnh

thsmith

ozzy21236 wrote: »

thsmith,
While my reply doesn't directly answer your question, I'd like ask if you have considered upgrading your phono stage. You would be suprised what an upgrade that can be . While a Scout would be a large upgrade over the SL1300 you have, you have yet to extract the potential of the Technics .
For about $375 , a Denon DL 160 and the CA 640p or for a bit more a Musical Fidelity x-lps v3 Phono Amp ,Project Tube Box ll or Jolida JD9A will provide a significant upgrade (imo) over the Shure paired with the Denon's phono stage.
Not trying to discourage your pursuit of the VPI ,just giving thought to a different upgrade path. There is something to be said for the ease of setup especially to a relatively vinyl newbie of the Technics tables with detachable headshells.
Good luck with your upgrade whatever you decide to do.

Russ

Russ, I have thought of upgrading to the Denon cart but not really the Phono stage.

If I do that then am I running the phone stage from TT to my Carver Amp instead of the Denon AVR ?

Unfortnately or fortnately my Audio and video are all in one.

thsmith

george daniel wrote: »

I got an essentially new scout with a dyna xl-20 lomc (new) for about 1500.00,, just be patient and one will pop up on agon,, but move quickly,,when you see the one you want--pull the trigger fast--good luck,keep us posted.

Thanks George, man the good stuff moves fast over there. I am spending some there looking and taking note of prices and what stays and goes.

skipf

cnh wrote: »

Not to get off topic but there's a vinyl question that's been driving me nuts. When I was a kid, the real audiophiles bought 'studio quality' reel-to-reel tape decks similar to the actual decks used to 'master' what eventually became vinyl--it's source, the original analog recording of the 'live' sound.

That being said, wouldn't it be the case that no matter how much one invested in a turntable, getting the master tape and running it on a R-t-R deck would really be the best of all possible analog worlds. So why isn't everyone running away from turntables and toward Tape-decks? I remember they even used to sell albums on reels?

Just call me curious and old but not too 'old'?

cnh

Most master tapes are 1/2" or better. Most home tape machines are 1/4". I know of no source for pre-recorded 1/4" tape anymore, and you will never get a master tape out of the studio unless you own the studio. Tape was a very good, high quality format, but it has gone the way of the dinosaur.

thsmith

thsmith wrote: »

Russ, I have thought of upgrading to the Denon cart but not really the Phono stage.

If I do that then am I running the phone stage from TT to my Carver Amp instead of the Denon AVR ?

Unfortnately or fortnately my Audio and video are all in one.

Getting back on topic, How would I integrate a Phono stage ? Would I put it between my TT and the AVR Phono input on my AVR ?

ben62670

If you had a phono stage you would use an auxilary input on your AVR not a phono input. I do dual duty HT 2 channel audio also. I don't have the money for both. What I suggest is get a pre/phonno between your amps and AVR. Run your music sources into the Pre, and send your AVR to the pre. When using your AVR you just select that position on your pre and you still retain the full volume control of the AVR.

thsmith

Ben, OK that is starting to make sence to me. WHat are your recommendations for a Pre/Phono that will make a difference in sound but not break the bank?

Thanks !

ben62670

thsmith wrote: »

Ben, OK that is starting to make sence to me. WHat are your recommendations for a Pre/Phono that will make a difference in sound but not break the bank?

Thanks !

I have very limited knowledge of good Pre's. There are a few threads listed lately with the same question you are asking. I made my own pre, but if I didn't I think I would carefully hunt down a deal on the Adcom GFP-750. Also see if Dodd make a tubed pre with a phono stage? Hopefully someone will chime in that has experience with the carver amps. Synergy can be a ****!

Ricardo

I don't know, but IMO spending any kind of money on upgrades, and still go through a receiver will not get you the improvements you would expect.

I would think on getting a 2 channel pre first.

AudioGenics

try a Dynaco Tube phonograph pre-amplifier PAS

thsmith

Ricardo wrote: »

I don't know, but IMO spending any kind of money on upgrades, and still go through a receiver will not get you the improvements you would expect.

I would think on getting a 2 channel pre first.

I think that is what Ben is recommending and Ricardo is confirming. SOunds like I could take a pre with phono and run my TT to it. Run Pre between my AVR and Carver AMP and run output from AVR (mains) to PRE.

Do I have it right ?

Ricardo

thsmith wrote: »

I think that is what Ben is recommending and Ricardo is confirming. SOunds like I could take a pre with phono and run my TT to it. Run Pre between my AVR and Carver AMP and run output from AVR (mains) to PRE.

Do I have it right ?

You have it right, if you get a pre with a HT by pass.

ben62670

thsmith wrote: »

I think that is what Ben is recommending and Ricardo is confirming. SOunds like I could take a pre with phono and run my TT to it. Run Pre between my AVR and Carver AMP and run output from AVR (mains) to PRE.

Do I have it right ?

Yep. That way you can still use your AVR, but it is not in the signal path when you are getting your 2 channel on:) On the AVR you would still use your pre out so that the whole system could be controlled by the AVRs remote. You just crank your pre to the same position when you use your avr. You don't want to use straight line outs from your AVR. If you did you would have two volumes to adjust.

ben62670

Ricardo wrote: »

You have it right, if you get a pre with a HT by pass.

Or crank the volume on the 2 channel pre;)

Edit:
HT bypass would be ideal, but many nice 2 channel Pre's don not have this feature. I would not worry about HT bypass when looking for a pre. If it has it then great. When I built my pre I did not bother to incorporate HT bypass into it.

thsmith

ben62670 wrote: »

You don't want to use straight line outs from your AVR. If you did you would have two volumes to adjust.

Today I am using my mains (L&R) pre outs on AVR to Carver TFM-45. I assume I would do the same except to Pre then out of Pre to TFM.

Not sure I understand the straight outs from AVR part ?

ben62670

You would still use those to retain the AVR volume control of the fronts. You could use line outs(monitor), but then you would have to mess with two remotes.

Ricardo

Well, I am not sure I understand what Ben is saying, but using a 2 channel preamp without a HT by pass can be a real pain.
When you use a 2 ch pre in the mix, your center and surrounds will be controlled directly by your AVR (either using the AVR's speaker outs or pre-outs into an amp), but your fronts would go through the 2 ch pre into an external amp. With a HT by pass, there will be no gain in the pre, so it will have no impact on the fronts and the AVR's volume will control all speakers equally.
If you don't have an HT by pass, then you have the 2 ch pre in the path of the fronts, with its own gain. When you change volume settings in your AVR, the fronts will be totally out of sync, resulting in an unbalanced system. Unless you ALWAYS use the same volume setting in the AVR, and calibrate your system using the 2 ch pre's volume to have a balenced system. The minute you change the volume in your AVR, your balance is gone.

thsmith

Head spinning but having fun and learning lots guys, THANK YOU !

So for now upgrading TT is on hold until I determine the benifits of a PRE with and without using the built in Phono for a better external phono stage and the need or not for HT bypass.

Any pointers for a pre that has it all (HT bypass and good built in phono) that is in the $1K range, less would be better and will probably have to be used ?


I think staying with SS is the right approach considering the Carver TFM-45 or am I off base here too?

ben62670

If the pre is after the AVR you set it to say 12 O'clock. Calibrate your AVR, and every time you use your AVR you set your pre to 12 O'clock. You only have to set it once. Most active Pre's have a little gain. So basically what you are doing is setting your Pre to no gain, and it runs the signal through the Pre. HT bypass would totally pass the 2 channels Pre's electronics. This is best, but I wouldn't dismiss a good Pre because it didn't have this feature. Many nice Pre's are made for strictly 2 channel. An HT bypass box could easily be built using a 2P2T switch and 6 RCA jacks in small box it it were really a concern.

thsmith

Thanks Ben, that makes sence to me now.

At this point I should probably close this thread and start a new Pre-Amp with good phono stage or without thread or maybe I should watch the ones already in play and see how they go;)

reeltrouble1

dont get one without the by-pass for what you want to do.

RT1

thsmith

Thanks RT1. Alot to take in the last 24 hours but it sounds like getting the best out of the TT I have now with adding a Phono stage and or a Good Preamp is the right path.

I am still lusting after a VPI Scout but I think I need to focus on the other stuff first if I want to enjoy the benifits of a nicer TT.

Long time friend is going to bring over his Parasound Phono stage and let me play a while to help put me on course. After he completes the mods to his Rega is going to bring it over so I can here a better TT on my system.

Again, Thanks to all for your insight and schooling me on phone and pre amps.

seafire

Ben don't want to jack this thread but did you see my reply on what didgital active x overs I was using?

Polkitup2

You're jacking this thread. Use PM please

ozzy21236

Incremental upgrades can allow you to appreciate the improvements along the way. I suggest to listen to the Parasound your friend is going to loan you .Plug it into an unused input on your receiver. It should be a nice improvement over the Denons built in phono pre. In an A/V receiver, the phono stage being there at all is nice but still just a convenience.Look in my first post for seperate phono stages to consider that are friendly to your budget.
I noticed large improvements when I switched from a H/K 3480 stereo receiver to the Cambridge Audio 640p through that same receiver.I then bought an Adcom GFP 555mkll stereo preamp and compared its phono to the 640p and I choose to keep the 640p in the chain.Since my focus is 2 channel, I can't make any suggestions as to a good preamp w/HT bypass so I'll leave that to someone with experience.
I will say, get the best preamp you can afford, mate it with a cartridge that matches your arm and the capacitance specs (if not adjustable) of your phono stage and the performance upgrade should be eye opening.
The Flea Market and Audiogon are good bets for 2nd hand stuff as audiophiles tend to take great care of their gear and upgrade often, saving you a slew of cash in the process as I'm sure you are aware.
Sorry if my suggestion created a whole new dilemma for you. I just think you have a pretty decent table (not the holy grail) that has ALOT of untapped performance for you to discover.
One last thing, don't disregard out of hand a KAB SL1200.
My name is Russ. I am a Technics fanboy.LOL

thsmith

Russ, no need to be sorry and your input did get me to thinking and from Ben, you and others I learned some new useful information.

I have been wanting the Denon 160 cart for a while and while I appriciate the Shure 97 I want to try something else considered a little further up the line.

My long time friend has been telling me some of this stuff for a while but sometimes I am too harded to listen and have to see it for my self or hear it from others. Personal flaw I suppose.

COnsidering I picked the SL-1300 from a one owner that had documented service recently for $120 I feel that I can make these types of upgrades and learn on the way.

Again, thanks for the input and the idea to make use of the SL's potential which I would think would better enable my system to take advantage of the TT next step up when the time is right

BlueFox

skipf wrote: »

Most master tapes are 1/2" or better. Most home tape machines are 1/4". I know of no source for pre-recorded 1/4" tape anymore, and you will never get a master tape out of the studio unless you own the studio. Tape was a very good, high quality format, but it has gone the way of the dinosaur.

To bad. Tape makes more sense than TTs for analog playback. All the fidelity, and none of the hassle. Back in the old days, I used to copy my LPs onto my Sony reel-to-reel ASAP. The biggest problem with tape was jumping to a specific track. Thank God for CDs, SACDs, and DACs.

thsmith

As I posted somewhere else (i think), I installed a Denon DL-160 3 days ago and that was a great improvement over the Shure 97.

A friend lent me his Parasound ZPhono while he is at the Texas Motorplex watching cars go round and his Rega is in the shop having some upgrades.

Adding the Phono stage in addition to the DL-160 has absolutely transformed how my system sounds.

Sound stage is much larger, detailed and the SDA effect has never been as good as it is right now.

I am totally blown away. Hair on my arms and neck are tingling.

Ozzy, I owe you a virtual drink of your choice for steering me off course. I think once I get my own Phono stage I will be happy with my SL-1300 for a while.