Using Video interconnects for audio - AGAIN

Ceruleance

Yes yes my friends, I am sure you have answered this more times than you would have liked to, but I didnt see it in any threads i could find. So my form of the question goes like this:

I won an ebay auction for a lot of monster cable, I have now in my possession:
4 PAIRS interlink 250
2 single monstervideo 2
2 single monstervideo 3

upon inspection, the video cables seem much better quality than the 250's. I base this on several facts:

1. upon unscrewing the end cap, the cable looks a little larger in gauge for the video
2. the video cables both use the slanted turbine connecter, as does the Interlink 400 mark 2, which is 2 levels higher than the 250.
3. the retail for one PAIR of 250's is 25. The retail for a Single MV2 is 20, and a single MV3 is 30 (all 1m length). Yes price doesnt equal performance, but within a single company I would say the correlation should be pretty linear.

So of course the question is, I dont have any video sources i need composite for, should I use the video cables for audio?

Obviously the answer is to listen and see if I can tell the difference, but i dont have my new equipment with me yet so Im just kind of preparing (its at my house, im at school)

Lastly, one interesting thing I noticed is that the 250's have a clearly marked directional signal path on the jacket, whereas the video cables do not. What do you think that is about?


Thanks for going through the answer again, im sure this isnt the first time

Ceruleance

Bump, c'mon guys..

Steve@3dai

Video cables may be wound differently, or wrapped differently. The audio cables have a directional arrow because of how the twist is in the wire. It could be different for the video cables.

I've never tried it though, just going off what I know.

mantis

Here's a real quick answer...no.Don't use video innerconnects for audio.If your going to do that then here's what you do...
Go down to radio shack, Home Depot,or wherever you buy your bulk coax rg-59 or rg6.Then cut to length you desire,terminate as usual,buy some F to RCA adapters and BANG.......audio innerconnects allday.........would I do that?????NO!
Need reasons?Ask away.Try it and see.

danger boy

the salesman at Magnolia Hi Fi wanted to sell me some monster video cables as analog audio interconnect. I've never heard of such a thing.. and I wouldn't go for it. Yeah video cables in most cases are less expensive.. but what would it do exactly.

mantis

tip of the day........Listen and you'll see.............

the signal will get there,sound will happen.......but the sound.......:( :eek: :mad: :supermad:

mantis

what I hear
:mad: ok what the......:eek: gee can you turn it off...... What exactly am I hearing now.........:supermad: Get it the EFF out.

wlrandall

Haven't ever tried using video cables for audio, the opposite works pretty well. The wife and kids were dying to watch Titanic, only have it on VHS because of the problems I heard of with the DVD version. Long story short, I had to use a Monster sub cable to run the composite video from my VCR to the TV. The only problem I had was the fact it was VHS on a widescreen. Bad pic quality but no signal loss.

Wally

mantis

there is a reason that audio and video cables are made differently.It's good practice to use the correct cable for the job.

Ceruleance

thanks for the replies
250's it is, will use the video cables when i get a monitor with component in, unless anyone wants to make an offer on 2 MV2's and 2 MV3's..

RuSsMaN

What is the reasoning Dan? Break it down to 1's and 0's, and tell me what is different about an audio and video signal, electrically, and then what requirements that electrical signal needs in a cable design.

Typically, at least in the low-end spectrum of cables, a Video cable will offer better shielding. You most certainly can use them for audio. Now will they beat a balanced, twisted pair design? Depends on the gear its connected to, and the ears attached to the listener.

Cheers,
Russ

mantis

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
What is the reasoning Dan? Break it down to 1's and 0's, and tell me what is different about an audio and video signal, electrically, and then what requirements that electrical signal needs in a cable design.

Typically, at least in the low-end spectrum of cables, a Video cable will offer better shielding. You most certainly can use them for audio. Now will they beat a balanced, twisted pair design? Depends on the gear its connected to, and the ears attached to the listener.

Cheers,
Russ

I'm not a wire expert but I do know they are designed differently and sound different.
Video cables are designed to be 75ohms.The are basicallt built exactly like a standard coax type.Solid core and uses the negitive as a shield.Along with a foil.I never said you can't use it for audio....actually you can,but the sound quality is ....well you listen to it and make up your own mind how it sounds.
Audio cables are twisted pair design(this is monster not all cables)stranded not solid core.Also designed to carry audio frequencies.Twisted counter clockwise.Get your read on go to the Monstercable web site and learn.
But the bottom line is this.How it sounds.If you feel videocables sound the same as audio cable,then use them.I have tried this and didn't care for the sound.....you try it.

Steve@3dai

Dan does have a point about the resistance of the cable, as video is designed for 75ohm.

I don't think you'd want resistance on an audio cable

RuSsMaN

Anyone know what the 'resistance' is of an audio-only rca cable? I have not seen that mentioned. At least since resistance seems to be a topic of interest here. Finally, is that also not the resistance of a digital *audio* cable?

Cheers,
Russ

HBombToo

I'll bet a six pack that a vidio cable used as an unbalanced or even digital interconnect won't make a damn bit of difference.

any differences at best will be subtle.

HBomb

Steve@3dai

Lemme see if I can measure that at work, we've got some testing goodies around there

HBombToo

Originally posted by Steve@3dai
Lemme see if I can measure that at work, we've got some testing goodies around there

what band are you going to measure in? big difference between vidio and audio... the reason vidio is designed @ 75Ohm is to minimize the reflection coefficient of the connection and hence a reduction in standing waves.

in audio the band is low enough that you probably won't measure much dc resistance... (rho)*Length/Area

don't get to stessed because its just a sixpack!

HBomb

Steve@3dai

Oh, I'm not stressed over this.

What band do you speak of? Please elaborate.

It's good technical discussion

polkatese

Guys,
for what it's worth, here is the description of signalcable analog two specification:

Coaxial construction using a unique combination of bare copper center conductor, Teflon insulation, bare copper braided shield wrapped in a Teflon jacket. low capacitance of 17.3 pf/ft.

Conductor: 22 AWG stranded bare copper
Nom. Capacitance: 17.3 PF/FT
Cable: Belden 89259
Dual shield: 95% bare copper braid
Jacket: Black tint Teflon
Insulation: Foam FEP (Teflon)
Nom. DC Resistance: 15.0 ohm/M'
Velocity of propagation: 78.0 %

btw, this I/C rocks! thanks Russ for convincing me to try them out...

cheers,

HBombToo

Originally posted by Steve@3dai

What band do you speak of? Please elaborate.

It's good technical discussion

http://www.cybertheater.com/Tech_Archive/YC_Comp_Format/yc_comp_format.html

I found a link that explains the whole vidio thing pretty well so enjoy.

Also for testing purposes... if you have a spectrum analyzer you can run return loss, "VSWR or Voltage Standing Wave Ratio" on the line from 3 to 6 Mhz for the vidio band and 100 to 20Khz for the audio band.

MY Advantest, "spectrum analyzer" will go down to 100Hz so if you have something like that in an HP flavor or some variation you could probably do a compareble test.

Keep in mind you will need a precision load at 75 Ohm with a directivity of something greater than 45 dB to do the test with any sort of accuracy.
Just from my experience... and trust me when I say assume the audio band is dc when comparing to vidio.

In Short without getting into alot of messy ****:
The 75 Ohm line is not a measure of the dc resistance from end to end but rather a ratio of the (inner diameter)/(outer diameter)*(dielectric) for a calculated load.
or simply put:
if you use an Ohm meter to measure the resistance of the center pin to center pin along the vidio line it will be very very small and look like a short. The impedance across the outer sheeth to the inner conductor is 75 Ohms and has nother to do with line loss but is matched to the impedance of the output device and the input device which minimizes high VSWR across the connections at very high frequencies. The lower the VSWR the less standing waves are set up on the line, "Good", and the Higher the VSWR is the Greater the standing wave will be on the line, "BAD". Low VSWR is 1.0:1 and in our canse anything over probably 2.5:1 is on the harry edge of bad. If you kink a vidio line we change the relationship between the Inner and Outer diameters and a decrease in the dielectric will occurr because the density will change and could drive the VSWR over say 10.0:1.

Hope this helps
IMHO you will not see an impact using a vidio cable as an analogue audio or even digital innerconnect but the converse is not true.

Since the HBomb entered into the FRAY here I expect to be bludgened but its all good.

HBomb

mantis

Personally I think you guys are taking this alittle 2 far.I mean a good technical debate is cool if your into that....I'm not.
My Technical tool is my ears.I don't care if the coax has solidcore and the audio has stranded twisted pairs..........Teflon,copper, whatever......it has to sound good.....and it's got to have a level of detail and balance.
Take the test.......go listen and report back.
By the way Digital audio IS also a 75 ohm cable to transfer a Digital signal.........not an analog signal.Coax allday.

I wanna ask this question here??????If there is no difference in sound quality as BomB has noted,then whay aren't any of you using coax for all unbalanced connections????Rg-59 and RG-6 quad shield is cheap.You can buy 100 feet real cheap.....buy some ends,F to RCA and BaM.....innerconnects for everyone.You can build custom lengths to fit perfectly in your rack, no more wire mess.You can wire your entire system for under 50 bucks ..or even less depending where you buy the F to RCA's.....get a good deal there and the price goes way down.....
I'm not being a smartass,I just really want to know if ANY of you actually listened to it?????I have.I stand by my words.

RuSsMaN

Well Dan, if the tech doesn't somewhat support your ears, I see one or more of the following scenarios:

A: You are highly subjectable to the placebo affect. It MUST sound better, they said so.

2: You take manufacturers claims WAY too seriously. They MUST know what the are talking about, God forbid it's *mostly* marketing based.

You actually hear an un-biased difference, under double-blind conditions, not widthstanding the pure subjectivness and variety or gear you have demoed said change on.

If it isn't about the electrical signal, and the tech behind it and the conductor, what is there that makes a difference in cable A and cable B? Your ears don't explain the science, simply personal preference. (which in and of itself its O-K, and valid).

Cheers,
Rooster

HBombToo

Originally posted by mantis
If there is no difference in sound quality as BomB has noted,then whay aren't any of you using coax for all unbalanced connections????Rg-59 and RG-6 quad shield is cheap.

I would but show me a cost effective and easy way to terminate coax with RCA!!!!... less adapters how can you do it Mantis?

BomB

RuSsMaN

Ease up Hbomb.

Dan started here a couple years ago with a big bag of nothing, he's still got most of it left.

Cheers,
Rooster

Steve@3dai

Nice HBomb, I appreciate your thoroughness in this matter. It does make sense to me now.

Even though my ears are the final word, I like the technical side as backup to my findings.

Ahh, that's the beauty of audio, it's all in the EARS of the beholder!

Ceruleance

wouldnt it be great if i actually had my components here to test it out?.. ::sigh::

mantis

Well If I have a big bag of nothing,why reply directly at me?

I have been talking about my findings for years in here.Take them for what they are.

As far as your scenarios Russ.......your off base completely.I LISTEN to the system(mine mostly)with A B C D E etc wires/cables.Have ANY of you????????ANYONE actually sit there and demo video wires vs audio wires????I Actually sit there and do it,not talk on this forum about how coax wire is fine to use for audio but never even heard it before,Russ why do you own Signal cables,MiT and was just looking to get into Monster Reference2's if all you needed was some video wires????........so I'm starting to feel like I'm talking to a bunch of clowns........talk all you want about this,I have no more to say.

TroyD

The point is Dan, you SEEM to be saying that there is an inherent design-related reason why you can't use a video cable. You SEEM to be presenting this as a fact. Yet, you have no proof other than your own opinion on the sound and some gobbledygook from the Monster website.

If it's your OPINION, state it as such. If you have the inside track on the tech side, do tell.

BDT
BDT

mantis

Dude........let it rest.I don't read anyone taking the test.

I NEVER SAID YOU CAN'T USE VIDEO CABLES FOR AUDIO.You can use whatever you want.Get some cat5e if it floats your boat.
The signal WILL get there......HOW......find out yourself.

All I said about audio and video cables are built differently.Look at your own wires and see how they are built.Video wires are coax based and audio cables are 2 conductor twisted.So get your research on and find out why.I only know what Monstercable and Transparent reps have told me.I'm NO WIRE EXPERT OR ENGINEER.

Get off your computer chair and learn....................

Tour2ma

Originally posted by HBombToo
I would but show me a cost effective and easy way to terminate coax with RCA!!!!... less adapters how can you do it Mantis?
BomB

Actually...
One solder connection for core wire plus crimp the shield.

I am using these to terminate three ~35' coax runs to carry component video from AVP to monitor.

TroyD

Yeah, Dan, I'll run right out to the nearest Tweeter right now and go grab me some cables.

Oh, yeah, I forgot, I don't think there is a franchise here in South West Asia. Not to mention, oh yeah, we are restricted to the tent city.

Ok, so they are built different. How doest that equate to sounding different, better or worse? If I'm not mistaken (and I might be) AQ makes solid core speaker wire. What I want to know, is HOW the differences translate into better/worse sound. Are the highs rolled off? Where do they start rolling off. etc etc....

BDT