eBay, PayPal and Credit Card Experience

Kex

Very Long Post warning :eek:!

There have been several recent posts concerning bad deals and/or PayPal, so I thought I would contribute my experience, in case it might prove useful to anyone in a similar situation. So ... this is a story about an eBay purchase that went bad, and the subsequent dealings with PayPal and my credit card company, Visa/Capital One.

Firstly, the item purchased had nothing to do with audio. Secondly, the seller had several thousand sales with over 99% positive reviews. Finally, the cost was just over $400. I have had other successful dealings under similar circumstances.

1. I bid on an eBay item that was described as "Brand New in the Factory Packing".
2. Since it was heavy, and shipping would have added a $55 crating charge, and the actual freight cost, I decided to go and pick it up instead.
3. When I started to unwrap it, I realized the wrapping was just the factory cardboard and polystyrene held together by standard cling wrap, as used by movers, not the original packing.
4. When fully unwrapped, I immediately noticed that there was damage: not severe, but too easy to notice for an item described as "Brand New" and that would be in plain view when fully installed.
5. I contact the seller, who refuses to do anything, neither reduce the price nor refund/exchange the item, basically saying "you signed for it, you must have damaged it yourself on the way home".
6. I contact PayPal and file a dispute for a Significantly Not as Described item (you have to wait several days, in the case of a power seller).
7. PayPal decides in my favor, after 30 days, and asks me to provide proof of return of the item.
8. The seller refuses to take the item back, so I cannot provide proof.
9. PayPal closes the case.
10. I call them and explain the situation.
11. The case is opened again. Then closed again after review.
12. I call PayPal, and they explain that unless I can provide proof of return, they cannot refund the purchase, and that it is now too late, even if the seller agrees to the return, since the case has been closed for the second and final time.
13. I call Capital One. It is now just one week before the deadline for making a claim would be exceeded (because of the PayPal delay). They immediately refund the money (after a single day).
14. I inform the seller that I have received a refund and that they can have the item back.
15. The seller agrees to take the item back. I hesitate to tell them to just "come and get it", but decide to "do the right thing" and just bring it back myself a few days later.
16. I ask the seller to sign a piece of paper describing the item, with model number and S/N, stating they have accepted the return.
17. I receive a request from Capital One for further information. This is quite detailed.
18. I provide all the written information about the claim, stating also that PayPal did not honor their buyer protection for a S.N.A.D. item.
19. PayPal opens a new case, with a chargeback claim against the seller. The seller is allowed to respond.
20. I call PayPal and ask why they opened a new case. They tell me that they always dispute chargeback procedures, as a matter of course.
21. I receive a terse letter from the Credit Card company, stating they have charged me again for the disputed amount, since the seller states that I did not return the item (I think this information was actually from the PayPal file, not from the seller).
22. I send them an equally terse, very firm, yet polite letter, with the signed document for the return.
23. They refund me the money again.
24. To the best of my knowledge, the seller cannot dispute the refund this time.

This whole thing lasted from mid-October to mid-March ... five months. I learned several things during this process, including, but not limited to the following:


[LIST=2]
[*]For small items, that are less than $250 (IIRC), PayPal will accept proof of sending from the shipper as proof of delivery, so a refund is much simpler if they find in your favor. No signature is required, and the seller cannot block the process.
[*]For items over $250, the seller must sign for the return, or PayPal will not refund. The seller can completely block the process.
[*]Be careful not to exceed the time limit allowed before filing a credit card claim. This could be a problem if you are hoping to resolve the dispute through PayPal initially, and then discover that it may not be possible.
[*]Your credit card company will refund you immediately, but it's not even half over at that point, and they are not nearly as helpful or polite as you might imagine. It is only starting, so get ready and keep notes.
[*]Make sure you keep copies of all e-mail exchanges with the seller, and the original listing details, as well as anything else that might support your claim with your credit card issuer.
[*]Neither the credit card company nor PayPal will clearly inform you beforehand of what you need to defend your claim. I just got lucky by being careful.
[*]If the seller's policy states "no returns or refunds", you can still win a claim with your credit card by stating PayPal did not honor their buyer protection policy.
[*]PayPal did not try to enforce the seller's "no returns or refunds" policy.
[*]PayPal will always dispute a chargeback, regardless of the circumstances.
[/LIST]
All's well that ends well, but the whole thing was a bit of a mess.

hifiaudio

Paypal is a bunch of scumbags!!!!! I will never ever accept paypal again. Also I no longer ship any items I have for sale.
Screw paypal.

Kex

Keiko wrote: »

paypal should change their name to "pay up pal" Glad it worked out for you Kex, but man, that is extreme to say the least. I don't have much patience for that kind of BS. :mad:

Yes ... it was a bit extreme, and I'm convinced they are expecting 90% of people to give up or not keep appropriate paperwork, just like those infamous rebates for purchases. The credit card approach probably shocked me more than PayPal, since they initially give you the impression that your refund will be as easy as you could possibly imagine, but then they get into the nitty gritty by mail, requesting detailed information, and the tone is much more unpleasant - you can tell that if you give the wrong response, they will simply refuse your claim.

For a smallish claim, in this case, with the S.N.A.D. information I provided to PayPal, they would actually have refunded me with just the tracking number from a shipper, regardless of whether the seller agreed he received the item back or not. My claim was too large for that simplified approach, however, and I suspect the seller knew it.

ESavinon

Paypal and Ebay both Suck! I gave up buying crap from ebay.

Gadabout

Having just got rid of my Blose system on Ebay there was something that I didn't know about PayPal....

If the value of the item is over $100 or something in about 5 categories (electronics being one of them), PayPal holds the money for 21 days, until the buyer leaves feedback. If they still haven't left feedback, after 21 days you have to show proof of delivery to get your money.

They ended up holding the $500 for two weeks, after delivery, till the buyer finally left feedback.

jm1

Yep, been there and done that exact process. Any PayPal claim is a bunch of BS. They do not offer any protection as they claim.

As per your second point (5), persist ALL information for ANY online purchase. I use MS Word to save screen shots of the web page ads. This is important as it shows the original ad and can't be refuted by any party in the transaction. I also persisted the email correspondence in a Word document just in case.

Having the above as a reference proved my case beyond any doubt. My case also took five months to resolve.

Motzart

I have been doing biz on Ebay since 1999 and never have had a problem selling or buying.
Paypal I have used since 2001.....no problems there either.
I'm REAL careful to check feedback....if it's less than 99.8% I won't buy PERIOD!

I have sold everything from a 1984 Thunderbird to Baseball cards!

Kex

Motzart wrote: »

I have been doing biz on Ebay since 1999 and never have had a problem selling or buying.
Paypal I have used since 2001.....no problems there either.
I'm REAL careful to check feedback....if it's less than 99.8% I won't buy PERIOD!

I have sold everything from a 1984 Thunderbird to Baseball cards!

I did check their feedback, and didn't see any obvious red flags (I always pay more attention to neutral or negative feedback than all the positives). The good news is that their score has now dropped below 99%. I discovered in my research after the sale that they seem to specialize in damaged goods that they buy from stores, but in my case they did not describe the item as damaged. Those buying slightly damaged goods from them would lower their maximum bid price accordingly, and would have no reason to be disappointed if the item does indeed have damage, as described.

99.8% positive is a very high score to maintain. Polk Audio currently enjoys a mere 99.7, and I would consider them one of the safest stores on eBay. Similarly, Harman Audio has a score of 99.4%.

I did not find the PayPal process any worse than the Credit Card process to use, so I'm not personally finding fault with PP per se, although I know there is quite a bit of hate for them around here. In some ways, it was actually easier to deal with PP (since it's mostly managed electronically, not by mail), and it would have been perfect if the item had been below the limit for a signature required to confirm the return. What may be useful to know is that when you use your credit card to fund PayPal, you can use both options for a dispute. If I had funded PayPal directly from my bank account, as they want you to do (the automatic, default account settings), I would be stuck with the damaged item right now, with no solution possible whatsoever.

Motzart

I always include lotsa pics and FULL description.
If ya wanna sell stuff and get positive feedback got have good pics and disclose EVERYTHING straight up. Proper packaging is a huge plus also!

Lotta pics of stuff I see on ebay are horrible!
Descriptions are like a 5yr old wrote em with a ton of mis-spelled words.
If anything ebay is great for free amuzement! LMAO

BaggedLancer

Curious, why would you accept the damaged item from the seller if you went and picked it up yourself?

Kex

BaggedLancer wrote: »

Curious, why would you accept the damaged item from the seller if you went and picked it up yourself?

The damage was hidden by the wrapping. I didn't want to unwrap it before signing because I didn't want it to get damaged on the 30 mile freeway drive home in the bed of the truck. Since it was repacked by them, with the cling wrap stuff, I'm convinced somebody knew perfectly well that the damage was there.

When I brought it back to them, after the refund, they made a huge deal of checking it for extra damage that I might have caused, but it was pristine (because I'm very careful with my stuff in general). The tech said immediately, when seeing the damage that caused the dispute "Oh, we'll just take that right off and fix it in no time, and then put it back on ... it's no big deal!" which left me thinking "Why did you jerk me around when I first called, instead of asking me to send you a pic of the damage, at which point you could have offered to do that very same repair, and I probably would have kept it!". But at that point, after so much trouble, and their rude replies to my messages, I just didn't trust them any more and didn't want to have anything to do with them.

BaggedLancer

Gotcha, I still would have opened it. Or atleast made the attempt. If they asked what i was doing I would get suspicious they were hiding something and not buy it.

danger boy

the seller sounds like a real **** wipe if you ask me. He could have made things smooth and easy. but no he made each step a royal PITA for you.