center in the ceiling - possible?

kjozsa

Hi all,

I'd like to get some advice in building my new living room system in a new home. The room is rectangular, about 12 feets tall and has suspended ceiling which could allow easy ceiling mounts, so I'd like to choose such a solution.

The question is, do I better go with a 4.0 setup (maybe 4.1 adding a sub later) or trying to put a center speaker on the ceiling as well? Wall-mounting the center is not an option - I have all glass there (windows and doors). A complete surround setup would be preferable but not an absolute must-have..

In case I can mount the center speaker on the ceiling, should I go for a in-ceiling speaker as the center like the LC60i or a wall-targeted center like the LCi-C?

Thanks a lot in advance,

Kristof

Knucklehead

not sure if you would get the correct imaging from a center firing downward....there are a lot of smart guys on here that may have some suggestions if wall mount is not possible. Welcome to Club Polk!

Vette C6.r

In HT systems the center does the majority of the work. Buy a nice one (LSI ).

Not sure why you would try the 4.0 system.
In my opinion do it up the first time and you won't regret not making it right the first time.

disneyjoe7

In-Wall center, I can't see why not where's the tv? Mount it under or above the tv.

messiah

In wall center, yes. In ceiling center, no. You really do need that speaker front and center to anchor dialogue to the screen. It helps build the soundstage.

okiepolkie

4.0/4.1 done right will sound better than a 5 channel system done poorly, and given the information you have given us, this would probably be my choice in this particular situation.

If your listening position is relatively close to the center of the sound stage, then decent left and right speakers will do an admirable job of anchoring the dialog to the screen.

Instead of adding the center, put the money towards a subwoofer for the setup. A blended subwoofer would complete the sound stage better than a poorly placed center channel speaker.

messiah

A sub will definately add impact, but if you are listening to movies in surround, much of that sound will be routed to the center speaker. I'm assuming you will be using a receiver with dolby/ dts decoding. Here's an option for you:

http://www.sanus.com/us/en/products/speaker-foundations/sp-steel/SFC22

also comes in a shorter version:

http://www.sanus.com/us/en/products/speaker-foundations/sp-steel/SFC18

IMHO no home theater can be considered complete without the center speaker. Depending on what fronts you are running, you may be able to get away without a sub for a while, but at some point you owe it to yourself to add one to the mix.

xrock

If you frame your LCD or Plasma TV into the ceiling, then I make sense to put the center speaker in the ceiling too.

Knucklehead

xrock wrote: »

If you frame your LCD or Plasma TV into the ceiling, then I make sense to put the center speaker in the ceiling too.

huh?

Knucklehead

200 posts! LOL!

xrock

Knucklehead wrote: »

huh?

I'm being sarcastic. Don't huh me. Don't tell me that you did not see that comercial when the LCD TV first came out and it was framed into the ceiling. Just image a nude lady on top of you each and everyday while you laying on your bed. Make a great day, everytime.

messiah

Knucklehead wrote: »

huh?

I think it was a joke (at least I'm hoping). Kind of like mount your tv on the ceiling, lay on the floor, look up and watch tv. :rolleyes:

Congrats on the 200 posts

messiah

xrock wrote: »

I'm being sarcastic. Don't huh me. Don't tell me that you did not see that comercial when the LCD TV first came out and it was framed into the ceiling. Just image a nude lady on top of you each and everyday while you laying on your bed. Make a great day, everytime.

Huh?

xrock

messiah wrote: »

Huh?

You are not suppose to say "Huh?" When the lovely nude lady are on top of you, you are suppose to say OOO La La give me more.

messiah

LOL I just said huh because you said don't huh me

If every home theater came with a hot naked chick, no one would notice the center channel missing!!

wingnut4772

Wowee..this thread took a turn into the weird.

disneyjoe7

xrock wrote: »

I'm being sarcastic. Don't huh me. Don't tell me that you did not see that comercial when the LCD TV first came out and it was framed into the ceiling. Just image a nude lady on top of you each and everyday while you laying on your bed. Make a great day, everytime.

LOL:D Like your idea of ceiling mount nude lady thing.... I may have to remount the flat screen straight up and yes if installed this way why not install center in ceiling also.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA:D

Knucklehead

xrock wrote: »

I'm being sarcastic. Don't huh me. Don't tell me that you did not see that comercial when the LCD TV first came out and it was framed into the ceiling. Just image a nude lady on top of you each and everyday while you laying on your bed. Make a great day, everytime.

Chill bro, just kinda threw me off there for a second....guess I was thinking too hard. My intentions were not to belittle you. alls good!

artinaz

No center channel is preferable to a badly placed center.

Its true that a lot of the HT signal will come from the center channel. However, if you are seated more or less symmetrically between the left and right, you will not have a problem with anchoring the dialogues to the screen. If that truly was a problem, you wouldn't have proper imaging of vocals in a stereo setup done right.

If you have guests who are seated to the side, they will have a problem with no center speakers.

messiah

artinaz wrote: »

No center channel is preferable to a badly placed center.

Its true that a lot of the HT signal will come from the center channel. However, if you are seated more or less symmetrically between the left and right, you will not have a problem with anchoring the dialogues to the screen. If that truly was a problem, you wouldn't have proper imaging of vocals in a stereo setup done right.

If you have guests who are seated to the side, they will have a problem with no center speakers.

That is only true if you are watching movies in stereo. Otherwise the center is necessary. For everyone who says otherwise, put on a movie, and pull the wires from their center channel. Enjoyable? I think not!!

comfortablycurt

Where's your TV going to be? Can't you just put a center channel on top of, or below the TV? That would be much better than being mounted in the ceiling.

While it's true that you could run a phantom center off of the FR and FL speakers...it's really only effective if you're anchored to the dead center of the sound stage. For anybody anywhere else in the room, there aren't going to be any center effects really.

Another possible solution, would be to get a regular center channel, and come up with some kind of ceiling mounted bracket for it, and angle it towards the listening position. It wouldn't really be ideal, but would be much better than a down-firing center channel.


Messiah-I run my surround setup with a phantom center a lot of the time and it does just fine. You don't absolutely HAVE to have a center...though it's much better with one of course. In some situations, where you have good FR and FL speakers, and a crappy center, you're really better off running the phantom. It only really works when I'm watching a movie by myself and I'm in the center listening position though. Whenever I have anyone else over watching a movie with me, I turn the center back on, due to not being able to sit in the dead center.

I'll hopefully be replacing my crappy center soon though.

Kex

messiah wrote: »

... For everyone who says otherwise, put on a movie, and pull the wires from their center channel. Enjoyable? I think not!!

:eek:! FYI (you probably know this already), but that is not the way to do it. You would still use a "phantom" center effect, by using the receiver setup to eliminate the center channel. It gets sent to the other speakers, not just left out completely. Just pulling the wires would leave sound signal being lost, not redirected. You can often achieve quite excellent results with a phantom center setup.

messiah

Do all receivers have phantom center mode?

Kex

messiah wrote: »

Do all receivers have phantom center mode?

I would expect all surround capable receivers to have this, and my ten year old Denon certainly does ... those with DTS or Dolby Digital and other surround formats. You usually have the option to include just the two front speakers, and/or add a center, and/or add rear surrounds; meaning a 5.1 receiver should allow you to use:

- Front only = 2.0,
- Front only, with center = 3.0,
- Front and surround only = 4.0,
- Front and surroung with front center = 5.0.

Excluding the center channel during setup will create the "phantom" center - usually the menu choice is between SMALL, LARGE or NONE for any of the front, center or surround speaker settings. The 0.1 subwoofer/LFE channel can be added to any of those configurations also.

reeltrouble1

you will have no trouble mounting a center channel speaker in the ceiling, the tweeter is aimable.

enjoy any of the Polk ceiling speakers that are within your budget.

RT1

Kex

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

you will have no trouble mounting a center channel speaker in the ceiling, the tweeter is aimable.

enjoy any of the Polk ceiling speakers that are within your budget.

RT1

That's what I was thinking - and hoping - too, but I didn't want to suggest it since I haven't tried it yet (I'll be replacing my own system using ceiling speakers some time fairly soon). I was surprised at some of the earlier responses that seemed to suggest this would not work properly.

Now, will the OP ever come back to his thread, or did he cringe and flee when he saw the whole "nude lady on the ceiling" episode? Thanks for clearing things up and making the thread credible again RT!

jacob.simpson

Can try this if possible:D

messiah

Lol never even knew phantom existed. Always had a center speaker.

kjozsa

Woah guys that's way much more helpful answer that I ever imagined.. thanks a lot, I really feel welcomed now on this forum

Back to a question in the thread, I can certainly put the center around the tv, but the opens a bunch of other questions:

Question 1) would keeping the 4 speakers in the ceiling firing down in the ceiling's 4 corners and keeping the center on or around the tv firing normally (horizontally) result in a reasonable soundstage?

Q2) how worse things will get if the TV is on the longer wall on the room around the middle but rotated about 45 degrees sideways? (that's the living room's sofa while the other side of the room holds the dining table). I was planning to compensate with the right amp settings rotating the stage a bit but I image we're getting really far now from being ideal..

Q3) quite honestly, I care much more about listening music with a balanced non-directed sound than going for a perfect movie sound. How would that change your suggestions? Originally I thought with a plain 4.0 or 4.1 I gonna achieve that much target easier.. (especially with that crazy TV position).

All suggestions welcome (even nude chicks on my ceiling), your help is MUCH appreciated!

cheers,
Kristof

reeltrouble1

Honestly?

If your interest lies with music I would forget about in-walls/ceiling speakers, I have the best in-walls Polk makes, outstanding for HT but my old polk SDA 1C kick their **** for music.

If you want surround sound music then RT1 is not the person to be giving advice, I am a 2 channel guy for my music, but there are members here who can help you.

RT1

kjozsa

I plan to keep my pair of RTI A1 in the bedroom for listening music in stereo..

Maybe I didn't make myself clean enough, let's see if a simple picture helps. If you look at http://ond.vein.hu/~dyn/speakers.jpg you see the plan of our future living room with the TV indicated in red and ceiling speakers in green.

Forget my listening preferences for a moment and let's try some clean-room suggestions of what can be achieved if the furniture and the tv's position is fixed. We'll have two 60cms (about 2feets) wide suspended ceilings running beside the longer side of the rooms (mainly for indirect lightning), so I can place additional ceiling speakers in them if it helps.

What do you think what would be a nice speaker setup given the room's capabilites in term of music listening and home theatre?

tia,
Kristof