Speaker assigning

Negative-Pulse · February 2003

I just completed my system. Rti 38's for rears, Rti 70's for main, Csi40 for Center. PSW350 Sub. My question is for the speaker set up. I have to define if my speakers are small or large. Is the Csi 40 considered large or small, and what about the Rti 38's? Large or small? It seems obvious that the floor standing Rti70's are large. What should I set the LFE setting on for my sub I have it a 0 db at this point My receiver is a Denon AVR 3802. Oh and what differences is sound would I hear if I bi-wired my csi40 and RTi 70'? Any help would be appreciated.

Dr. Spec · February 2003

Set all your speaks to small, regardless of physical size. If you can specify the filter point, select 80 Hz. Set LFE on receiver to slightly less than the midpoint of the range. Calibrate entire system with SPL meter and test tones or calibration disc. Bi-wire often results in audible benefits - try it - you be the judge.

RuSsMaN · February 2003

Not invalidating Doc's advice, it's good advice.

HOWEVER:

I believe *most* speakers that have 6.5 inch mid-bass/woofs can, and probably even SHOULD be run as large. Part of what make bass from the sub appear non-directional is a 'mask' by the other speakers, 1 octave higher.

A lot of people will tell you that 80-100Hz bass IS non directional. I disagree. I don't believe you get TRUELY non directional until you hit ~40hz. What helps make those frequencies >~40Hz from your sub APPEAR non directional, is the bass that comes from the other speakers, esp the main L&R, in the 40-100Hz range, even if the bottom end of the response is 6db down.

Without hearing your system, I would say set all speakers to large, and play with the center settings. Even though the CSi40 is a beast of a center, with 6.5" drivers, quite a few members have reported clearer dialog reproduction, clearer vocals, when set to small.

Become familar with a couple 'active' scenes in a couple of your DVDs. Something with loud effects, and human speech, vocals. Try BOTH settings, and see what suits you best. I'm not saying 'large' will be what blows your skirt up, but the speakers you listed can certainly handle it.

Cheers,
Rooster

Tour2ma · February 2003

Not invalidating Russ non-invalidation, etc.

Agree that it doesnt hurt to try both settings. Also when set to small it doesnt hurt to play with the AVRs crossover frequency setting. The proof is in the ears. However, multiple bass radiators can play bass havoc in a standard room, i.e., parallel walls, ceiling parallel to floor, etc. If you are lucky enough to have a horn shaped HT room (which I believe Russ does; right, Russ?) its far less likely to be a problem. If youre like many of us, i.e., stuck in an HT box, bass reinforcement, or cancellation, from reflections, multiple sources, and reflections of multiple sources becomes a serious concern. The large setting carries the biggest probability of creating this issue; small with a very low X-over is next and the chances lessen as you raise the X-over point. If you have this problem, its likely to go away in the 80-100 Hz range.

So test, but when you test, dont just test in your primary listening position. Move around and listen (or better yet measure) the room response to test signals at various low frequencies. (Youll find test disc and SPL meter treads all over in the Subwoofers and Bass Management section). Otherwise you could find yourself sitting there in a reinforcing zone grinning from ear to ear from BIG gut rumbles during the final battle scene in SPR (when the tank rolls down the street), while your buddy sits three feet away in a cancellation zone thinking Whats NegPulse know that I dont?

Dr. Spec · February 2003

Not invalidating Russ' invalidation by further extrapolating on Tour2ma's response.

1) The RTi70's might be flat to 35 Hz. They lack the deep bass extension to do complete justice to the full range signals found in all channels of today's DVDs.

Even if they are flat to 35 Hz at a low volume, they won't maintain that same extension at high volumes. The 6-1/2" bass drivers in the RTi70 simply lack the xMax and the Vd to fill a room with realistic impact and power at 35 Hz or below.

Your Denon is a fine receiver, but the amp section will reach its current and clipping limits more quickly when driving a full range signal into the mains and the center (if you go large here).

Of course, your PSW350 also lacks deep extension (I think it is rated to 38 Hz) so redirecting your mains to the sub won't help you any with extension.

In your case (because of the 350) it's a tougher call. Just be aware if you do run them on large, that you are asking them and your receiver to work a lot harder and don't expect miracles from them in the bass department with respect to extension or air moving capability. Standing waves issues aside (discussed by tour2 above), if you dont' run them too too hard, you might be OK.

This doesn't mean I changed my initial recommendation above, I haven't. I'm just trying to show you why Russ and I might initially appear to be polarized on this issue but when you delve into it and look at your entire system's capabilities, it isn't so cut and dried.

If you had a more capable sub, it would be a no-brainer (for me anyway) - run 'em all on small.

Negative-Pulse · February 2003

I initially set everything as large. It sounded really flat, and thin. The RTi70's sounded shrill. The CSi 40 sounded shrill and loud. I hardly heard anything from the RTi38's. As soon as I adjusted them to small, and set my PSW350 to 80 Hz, they started to sound much warmer amd rich. I really appreciate your help!! You all Rock!

Dr. Spec · February 2003

Hold up a minute there bucko. We're not through with you yet.

How is your PSW350 connected to your receiver? Sub pre-out to the LFE (unfiltered) input, right?

If so, your filter at the sub is bypassed, so fiddling with it will accomplish nothing.

You either filter at the receiver, or at the sub, but not both. If you set your speaks to small at the receiver, then definitely use the LFE (unfiltered) input at the sub and disregard the sub's filter setting.

Just making sure here.....report back at your leisure.

Doc

RuSsMaN · February 2003

I give up, from large to small, I've never heard of a speaker going from 'shrill' to 'warm'.

-Russ

Negative-Pulse · February 2003

Hey ! I have my sub connected to the "line in filtered" input jacks Left and right. Then it is conected to the one subwoofer Pre out jack on my Denon. I was told this was the way to do it by the people who sold me the receiver.

Dr. Spec · February 2003

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
I give up, from large to small, I've never heard of a speaker going from 'shrill' to 'warm'.

-Russ

Russ, notice how I deftly avoided responding to his perceptions of large and small and went straight to the sub hook-up?

Listen Negative Pulse: If you set your speaks to small at the receiver, then DO NOT use the L/R filtered inputs. Use the LFE (unfiltered) input with one sub cable. Whoever told you otherwise gave you bad advice.

Also, calibrate your system with a SPL meter and test tones - sounds like you might have an imbalance of volume not related to the electronic speaker size you selected.

Ron-P · February 2003

I'm small.

Peace Out~:D

Negative-Pulse · February 2003

Thanks for your input, this is by far the best advice I have had so far with my equipment. What are the advantages to the unfiltered vs the filtered inputs? and which RadioShack SPL digital or analog should I get?
Thanks!

Ron-P · February 2003

Analog. Set the weight selector to 'C' and the response to 'Slow'.

Peace Out~:D

danger boy · February 2003

what Ron-P said is correct. but i'd go with a digital instead. i like LCD numbers.. to me seems just a little more accurate. Negative, also.. new speakers need time to "break" in.. say a few days to a few weeks. but getting a SPL meter will help.

Dr. Spec · February 2003

http://www.gti.net/wallin/audio/rsmeter/33-2050/33-2050.html

kberg · February 2003

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
You either filter at the receiver, or at the sub, but not both. If you set your speaks to small at the receiver, then definitely use the LFE (unfiltered) input at the sub and disregard the sub's filter setting.

Negative-Pulse,

Be sure to follow Doc's (and other's) advice on the sub filter setting (meaning cranking all the way clockwise) to prevent double filtering. This is what Doc meant by "disregarding the sub's filter setting".

Tour2ma · February 2003

Actually I thought that if you use the LFE input, the sub's filter is bypassed altogether, and therefore can be disregarded.

Dr. Spec · February 2003

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Actually I thought that if you use the LFE input, the sub's filter is bypassed altogether, and therefore can be disregarded.

That is correct and that's what I meant.

In Kevin's case, he has no LFE input and must crank the filter all the way up.

kberg · February 2003

Correct, Doc - and sorry for any confusion I may have caused here.

brentski · February 2003

posted

Frank Z · February 2003

Ron_p is correct,
He is Small.

Tour2ma · February 2003

Frank,
Didn't need to know that...
and definitely don't want to know how you know...;)

MxStYlEpOlKmAn · February 2003

I give that a 5 laugh rating, and 2 thumbs up! THAT IS HILARIOUS FRANK! LOL!...and im with tour...i dont wanna know...how u know! LOL!

Frank Z · February 2003

FLOP,FLOP,FLOP

NEKKID, NEKKID, NEKKID

WWWHHHEEE!!!

mantis · February 2003

I give up, from large to small, I've never heard of a speaker going from 'shrill' to 'warm'.

Well now you have Bro.
Settings on large and small do make a noticable difference in performance good or bad.I don't think his comments should be avoided,thats what he heard and should be respected for it.He didn't say"well this is what I THINK IT WILL SOUND LIKE".I respect hearing it even with dramatic words then thinking what it will do.I'll take that idea one step further.When I owned the rt series speakers and a Denon receiver,I noticed a big difference in overall performance when switching from large to small.When the centerchannel was in large, the sound was alittle chesty and thumpy.In small it was crystal clear with great impact.Main channels where ran in small once,they sounded terrible.Rears was always being changed untill I found small to be more dynamic.If you own a Denon receiver, then you knwo that helping it with dynamic range is a really good thing.The Denon's don't have much for power reserves.
There aviod that.

This thead is a pretty good one.I like the fact that the sub's limitations where pointed out.The mains can play as low as the sub.This leads me to believe this is the wrong sub to use.It shouldn't be considered a sub,but a powered speaker box.

Sub's in my opnion need to go low,at very least solid into the lower 20's.A good sub can play down to 20hz.This is whats needed.

The system at hand,I would run the mains in large and the rest of the system in small.Then have the idea of getting into a better sub.
The Denon can play the extremely easy to drive rt series in large or small at any volume level.The amp section is designed to handle 8 ohm load full range speakers.Just don't ask anymore of it or you'll have a problem.Good point that this was also brought up.Alittle off base but good advice nonetheless.With that in mind,dynamic range would and does inprove running all speakers in small.More reserve power to drive.

Speaker assigning

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