Fighting foreclosure ? 3 magic words ?

cnh

Like some have said above. I don't condone buying over you head but that's not the main problem here. Because under normal circumstances those individuals would default anyway and that would be that.

The problem is this leveraging at 30 or more to 1 dollar. What IDIOT decided to take loans that any bank would see as suspect and probably not make and then sell HIGH RISK loans as pieces to others. That's adding insult to injury! Oh BTW...a lot of our 401Ks and retirement investments were INVOLVED or rather USED for these kinds of purchases and speculation. So guess what, people default, and our money goes with them? How is it that this is not "our" problem as well?

Did I approve such purchases by my investment people, No. Did they tell me what they were doing was TOXIC no.

The other thing is that many people who are hardly well off--the poor and lower middle-class hold more than a modicum of such loans. So yeah, it's not us who are on the spot, it's those who are 'worse' off than we are! So how haughty should we be?

Are we to engage in a self-litany of I'm OK you're not therefore I don't 'care' about you? Is that what America is about these days? Nice country if so!

I DO NOT approve of those who tried to take advantage of the system, roll houses, etc. But people with limited resources--am I hearing "let them eat cake" here?

Let's stop thinking about 'ourselves' only. Because such thinking does not constitute a real society. If it's all about individualism only--then try, just try to do everything by yourself and see how long you last. No one is 'independent' that's an illusion.

How about a little 'heart', 'compassion'?

My response is to try and give a bit more not complain about my taxes, to ask what can I do, how can 'I' help 'us'. Because that's the humane thing to do. At least that's what my life has told me....and I've taken a lot of lumps for it. I'm also not pulling down 6 figures or more.

cnh

jflail2

shack wrote: »

Why didn't they say that when they went asking to borrow the money? :rolleyes:

Or more pointedly, why didn't the bank say "F--k you borrower" more often. Too many high risk/subprime mortgages out there for me to feel the blame is solely on the consumer.

If you bought a house you couldn't afford after the interest only loan or 5 year arm expired, you deserve to lose your home...

On the other hand, if the bank lent to a high risk individual, I can't give them a free ride on this one either...

An increase in fiscal responsibility is in order on both sides of the fence.

nadams

At 21, I went out looking to buy a house. I was shocked that, with my limited credit history, two credit cards, and a car payment, that I was able to borrow $150k with an income of $25k/yr.

I ended up buying a house for $43k, and even that gets a bit tight some times when the heating bills are high. And I've since got a raise at work, and am working two and three jobs at any given time. I work my **** off to keep and improve this house, as well as have some money left over for beer and audio gear. In the end, I'll be out way ahead of any of the folks my age in terms of equity. Being 22 and making payments on a house is a good feeling, even if it's not the best house in the best neighborhood... it's a roof over my head, and I'm not pissing money away in rent every month.

My present goal is paying off the CC's and putting new tires on the truck.

cnh

Nice gear Nadams. Good plan. Only one question. How do you work 2-3 jobs in this economy! That's a feat in itself when real unemployment is probably over 10 percent already.

Hey Pa. was my home state. Not there anymore. East or West. I'm from the Lehigh Valley area originally?

cnh

nadams

cnh- I'm in central PA.

I've got my full-time job... then I work part-time for a local school district that I've been doing work for since I graduated. Plus I do side jobs if I have any free time between those two. Then there's keeping up with the house and that sort of thing... I rarely have the time I'd like to sit down and listen to tunes . One thing's for sure, all my gear has made its way to me on the cheap. The only way I upgrade is if an amazing deal comes along, or I've budgeted for it far in advance.

What I'd give to have the salary some folks have, but still be in this area... I could have my entire house paid off in a year! A lot of people commute to NYC for the salary, but I can't justify it right now. Unfortunately, those types of salaries just aren't available around here, hence the cheap house.

When I first got the place, people online would ask me what I paid for it. When I said 43k, they'd be all "wtf!?!? you can't get a house for that!!!" then I'd remind them what the median salary was in these parts . Cost of living is low, but salary is low, too... can't have one be offset from the other, you know.

cnh

I know what you mean, I'm up in Maine these days and depending on where in Maine you are you can buy cheap.

I also remember in downtown Easton, Pa. Years ago they were almost giving houses away if you were willing to restore them yourself after buying. So 40-50K is amazing yes but not surprising.

I was in N.J. for a year (Madison) about 30 miles from NYC and you couldn't even buy a 2bedroom bungalow with no garage for much less than 400K in 2000? Can't touch that!!

Hang in there you're young and doing the right thing. We already own our house also bought at a pretty low price though not quite as low as yours.

cnh

sucks2beme

There were plenty of people that started in my neighborhood making the same
money as me. I saw a whole lot of them move out to houses in
a new subdivision for twice the money while carrying two new car loans.
I fully expect a lot of them to be in deep do do. Do I fell bad for them?
NO. I can't fix stupid. Some of the people they show have been in their house
for 30 years. And they are losing it? IT SHOULD BE PAID FOR. Just because
they keep sending out those "refinance letters" from the bank doesn't mean
you keep pulling equity out of your house. I fell bad about people losing
their jobs. But nobody but them bought a house that they could barely afford.
I stayed in the lower end house, drive older cars, and don't buy into flash.
I don't fly to the Bahamas on my credit card. I don't drive a Caddy SUV.
My audio equipment is used, no credit card payments. And I'm supposed to
fell bad about people that didn't pay attention to where the money
was going? I most likely will lose my job and have to settle for a lower paying
one this year. Bad, but I'll make it through. There's not enough money anywhere
in the world to pay for stupid. End of story.

doggie750

WHAT REALLY SUCKS WHEN WE BOUGHT OUR HOUSE FREAKIN EXPENSIVE AND NOW THE SAME HOUSE IS ABOUT 40% LOWER DUE TO FORECLOSURES. WTF.......

I got question for you SHACK, I concur with you about those fools who brought this market down, the ones who think they can afford the house, but what about the FOOLS like me who can afford the house but suffering the consequences.

Since we are pre-approved, the wife is thinking buying another house and bail this other other one. Loss $300k for now (I am in pain just thinking about it, did so much in the house, landscapes, "THE POLK THEATER" Garage, Front yard, indoors, dude I got my heart in the house....) but will gain in the future. What's the POLKS 2cents on this?

shack

doggie750 wrote:

WHAT REALLY SUCKS WHEN WE BOUGHT OUR HOUSE FREAKIN EXPENSIVE AND NOW THE SAME HOUSE IS ABOUT 40% LOWER DUE TO FORECLOSURES. WTF.......

I got question for you SHACK, I concur with you about those fools who brought this market down, the ones who think they can afford the house, but what about the FOOLS like me who can afford the house but suffering the consequences.

Since we are pre-approved, the wife is thinking buying another house and bail this other other one. Loss $300k for now (I am in pain just thinking about it, did so much in the house, landscapes, "THE POLK THEATER" Garage, Front yard, indoors, dude I got my heart in the house....) but will gain in the future. What's the POLKS 2cents on this?

Just like any other "investment" the value fluxuates. It's the nature of stuff, be it stocks, art, antiques, REAL ESTATE, etc. Bail on this one? Are you talking about buying another house and then walking away from the current house and letting the lender foreclose? I hope that is not what you are suggesting.

polktiger

Shack, is it even feasible to bring a fraud case against people that have lied during the course of their loan application? (Such as stating your income was actually higher than it really was.)

shack

polktiger wrote:

Shack, is it even feasible to bring a fraud case against people that have lied during the course of their loan application? (Such as stating your income was actually higher than it really was.)

Yes it is feasible....

§ 1344. Bank fraud.

Whoever knowingly executes, or attempts to execute, a scheme or artifice--
(1) to defraud a financial institution; or
(2) to obtain any of the moneys, funds, credits, assets, securities or other property owned by, or under the custody or control of, a financial institution, by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises;
shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

BUT...In a case such as you state above the banks could ask but it would be up to the prosecutors to proceed with criminal charges. It's not usually going very far when dealing with obtaining a mortgage, unless it rises to a very high level of fraud and for very large amounts of money.

Lenders will often use the fraud statutes in bankruptcy proceedings. If a borrower knowingly makes false statements, furnishes false financial information, etc that rises to a level of fraud, the the borrower can often be prevented from being discharged from liability through bankruptcy and can be help liable indefinitely. It may not be worth the effort unless the lender feels there is a chance of recovering something in the future.

inspiredsports

sucks2beme wrote: »

There were plenty of people that started in my neighborhood making the same
money as me. I saw a whole lot of them move out to houses in
a new subdivision for twice the money while carrying two new car loans.
I fully expect a lot of them to be in deep do do. Do I fell bad for them?
NO. I can't fix stupid. Some of the people they show have been in their house
for 30 years. And they are losing it? IT SHOULD BE PAID FOR. Just because
they keep sending out those "refinance letters" from the bank doesn't mean
you keep pulling equity out of your house. I fell bad about people losing
their jobs. But nobody but them bought a house that they could barely afford.
I stayed in the lower end house, drive older cars, and don't buy into flash.
I don't fly to the Bahamas on my credit card. I don't drive a Caddy SUV.
My audio equipment is used, no credit card payments. And I'm supposed to
fell bad about people that didn't pay attention to where the money
was going? I most likely will lose my job and have to settle for a lower paying
one this year. Bad, but I'll make it through. There's not enough money anywhere
in the world to pay for stupid. End of story.

Amen!

shack

As an afterthought. Even though it can be considered fraud, the courts might not look to favorably to the lender since income verification is a relatively easy thing to do. Tax returns, pay stubs, W-2s are all ways of making sure what an individual states is true. Now if the borrower falsifies those documents, or provides business financial statements that are intentionally false...then that is something totally different. Lenders probably won't pursue fraud if they didn't do their due diligence.

Borrowers claiming significant assets that are false is a little different as it is often hard to verify.

doggie750

shack wrote: »

Just like any other "investment" the value fluxuates. It's the nature of stuff, be it stocks, art, antiques, REAL ESTATE, etc. Bail on this one? Are you talking about buying another house and then walking away from the current house and letting the lender foreclose? I hope that is not what you are suggesting.

That would be the case, what would be the best practical approach on this. Like what you said, it's the same as stocks. You buy it and lost, so sell it and buy another potential gain. It's the play of the game right? The reality of investment... In all honesty, I am stressed out just thinking about my situation.

shack

IMO what you are doing is wrong...but that is for you to decide. If your home had gone up in value, would you have given the lender the value of that increase? By making them absorb the lions share of the loss while you walk away, the lender is stuck with the downside but gained nothing more than the spread on the money they lent you (probably 2% or less) and would not have participated in the upside had there been one (like in the past). Why should someone else have to pay for the investment you made that went bad? I understand you don't want to absorb the loss but who is going to take the loss on the stock I bought that is now worth 40% of what I paid for it. What if I paid $300,000 cash for my house and it is now worth $150,000. Who should take over that loss for me? The fact that you borrowed the money shouldn't change who takes the loss IMO.

If you do this, you better make sure you are where you want to be for a long long time, because chances of you being able to finance another home will be slim.

You bought the house at a price, with payments that you felt you could afford. If it were me, I would live in the home I bought and pay the loan like I agreed to do as long as I was able to do so. If I lost my job or became ill and could'nt work, that would be something totally different. But as long as I was able to pay WHAT I OWE I will do so. Always have, always will. But that is just me.

doggie750

shack wrote: »

IMO what you are doing is wrong...but that is for you to decide. If your home had gone up in value, would you have given the lender the value of that increase? By making them absorb the lions share of the loss while you walk away, the lender is stuck with the downside but gained nothing more than the spread on the money they lent you (probably 2% or less) and would not have participated in the upside had there been one (like in the past). Why should someone else have to pay for the investment you made that went bad? I understand you don't want to absorb the loss but who is going to take the loss on the stock I bought that is now worth 40% of what I paid for it. What if I paid $300,000 cash for my house and it is now worth $150,000. Who should take over that loss for me? The fact that you borrowed the money shouldn't change who takes the loss IMO.

If you do this, you better make sure you are where you want to be for a long long time, because chances of you being able to finance another home will be slim.

You bought the house at a price, with payments that you felt you could afford. If it were me, I would live in the home I bought and pay the loan like I agreed to do as long as I was able to do so. If I lost my job or became ill and could'nt work, that would be something totally different. But as long as I was able to pay WHAT I OWE I will do so. Always have, always will. But that is just me.

The fact of the matter is that we tried resolving the issue with the bank by LOAN modification but due to our household income, they freakin denied us. Just like you noted before, the walmart topic you talked about, a customer who pays ended up getting the burn. We reached out but they don't care coz we've been paying.....WTF:mad:
Me and the wifey have good standing credits ever since but due to this case....if we ended up bailing this house.....our credit history is down the drain for 7 years. Can I live with that.........? I dont really know.
Am I burning the taxpayers really? .........Due to the bank standard to burn a good customer and to know we are not qualified for the new stimulus....wtf...

shack

It was Wa-Mu (Washingtom Mutual) not Wal-Mart.

Yeah it sucks that they won't give me the same cool deal the deadbeats get....BUT...it doesn't change the fact that I signed a note and I owe the money....REGARDLESS of what the collateral is now worth. That is the issue. The collateral ie:the mortgage on your home, is there as a secondary source of repayment in case you default...not to determine whether or not the note should be paid.

shack

If it was up to the lenders they would not lower the rates at all for anyone that has the abilty to pay. I know our margins are getting squeezed to the point we are having a hard time making any money BEFORE any loan losses. I litterally cannot make money lending at rates below 4-4.50%. Any lower than that and we might as well shut the doors and go home. It is the government that is setting these standards for the lenders to follow. I don't like the way Wa-Mu/J.P. Morgan/Chase handled a good customer. I was not asking for a below market rate, or some outlandish low payment, only to streamline the process in order to keep my business. I know how the system works and what the can and can't do from a practical and legal standpoint. They chose not to do that and they are losing a good loan and I have nothing good to say about them. If Polk treated me the way they did, I wouldn't buy Polk speakers.

mrbigbluelight

doggie750 wrote: »

The fact of the matter is that we tried resolving the issue with the bank by LOAN modification but due to our household income, they freakin denied us. Just like you noted before, the walmart topic you talked about, a customer who pays ended up getting the burn. We reached out but they don't care coz we've been paying.....WTF:mad:

Doggie, what you're describing reminds me of a story in a book that I read once.
Seems there was this guy who had 2 sons; if I remember correctly, they were in their late teens.
One of the sons wasn't any trouble; did his chores, went to school, avoided bad company, etc.
The other son got hooked up with the wrong crowd, stole money from his dad, and split.
That son lived good for a while, but when the money ran out, he fell on real hard times, and soon was living in the gutter.
He finally realized that he had to go back home, no matter how humilating it was and face his father's rage.
He did, and was suprised that his dad took him back in.
The other son was pissed off to the max; he had always toed the line, did the right thing, didn't cause trouble, the whole nine yards while his brother was out having a good time and partying.

"It's not fair !!"

As his dad correctly pointed out to him, the hard work he had done was, in and of itself, its own reward. The person who he was (hard working, trustworthy, honorable) was, in and of itself, its own reward.


To do what you're suggesting may "profit" you financially, but what is the true cost of doing what you're suggesting ?

You can afford the house you have now.
You're happy in the house you have now.
There is no problem.

polktiger

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

Doggie, what you're describing reminds me of a story in a book that I read once.

I guess that's one way to describe the story of the prodigal son from the Bible.

Shack, I guess I feel like some actual fraud trials need to take place. Both borrowers who were lying at the time of the loan and lenders that were predatory in their lending practice. Sure, this will have some repercussions, but some of these actors have harmed society as a whole, and we need to remind society that this harmful behavior will not be tolerated.

I know the trials will never take place. Well, time to prepare more tax returns for honest taxpayers, and try to explain that just becuase Geithner didn't pay his taxes doesn't mean my clients don't have to pay theirs.

doggie750

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

Doggie, what you're describing reminds me of a story in a book that I read once.
Seems there was this guy who had 2 sons; if I remember correctly, they were in their late teens.
One of the sons wasn't any trouble; did his chores, went to school, avoided bad company, etc.
The other son got hooked up with the wrong crowd, stole money from his dad, and split.
That son lived good for a while, but when the money ran out, he fell on real hard times, and soon was living in the gutter.
He finally realized that he had to go back home, no matter how humilating it was and face his father's rage.
He did, and was suprised that his dad took him back in.
The other son was pissed off to the max; he had always toed the line, did the right thing, didn't cause trouble, the whole nine yards while his brother was out having a good time and partying.

"It's not fair !!"

As his dad correctly pointed out to him, the hard work he had done was, in and of itself, its own reward. The person who he was (hard working, trustworthy, honorable) was, in and of itself, its own reward.


To do what you're suggesting may "profit" you financially, but what is the true cost of doing what you're suggesting ?

You can afford the house you have now.
You're happy in the house you have now.
There is no problem.

GOT me on the one, thanks.......I JUST WISH THE LENDER WOULD BE THE DAD IN THIS CASE.....

Shack, appreciated everything you said. Wish me GL.