Apple versus PC - computer shopping

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MacLeod wrote: »

Its a Sony Vaio model PCV-RX650 running Windows XP Service Pack 3

My current processor is a 1.60 gigahertz Intel Pentium 4 (Willamette)
8 kilobyte primary memory cache
256 kilobyte secondary memory cache
100 MHz clock speed
Socket 478
Core voltage 3.4 volts

My motherboard is a ASUSTeK Computer INC. P4B266LM REV 1.xx

The BIOS is Award Software, Inc. ACPI BIOS Revision 1002 12/18/2001 (Award Medallion v6.0)

For RAM Ive got 1024 MB of PC2100 DDR of which I almost never use more than 500 MB

Ive got 80 GB total disc space - 20 on C drive and 60 on D drive. C has 4 GB free and D has 35 GB free.

Dont know if it matters or not but my video card is a real ancient piece of crap. NVIDIA RIVA TNT2 Model 64 with a whopping 32 MB memory.

So you think it would be worth it to upgrade the processor? Or would I come out cheaper just buying a $500 compy from Best Buy? I know the sticking point will be that my motherboard has a 478 socket of which only Pentium 4's will fit and they dont make those anymore. Is it as simple as buying a motherboard combo with something like a Core 2 Duo processor and some more RAM and then dropping it in??? Cant be that simple!

I've built my own computer myself for the last several years as a point of cost effectiveness. It is certainly doable and easy enough to have a very lively hobby made from it. However, I would seriously consider buying a $400/$500 machine online (BestBuy has a markup). Without question it will be much, much faster than your current machine, especially if you opt for a dual core of either the AMD or Intel flavors. They should also be powerful enough to do video editing, light gaming on as well.

Then you can take your old desktop and install Ubuntu on it It'll make it look/feel brand new!

Sami

One of these: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814140095

Two of these: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820134487

This combo: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.165139

The only thing I can think of would be the power supply but that should not really be a problem. About $190 shipped minus $10 MIR, and you would have a decent updated PC with a good video card, 2GB of RAM. I would still suggest adding a new hard drive as well, it's only $60 more. Move the stuff from to new disc and extend that 60GB into your C:.

If you still are wanting something different than Windows, do yourself a favor and install Linux. Dual boot is easy, and if that isn't what you want to do, there is always virtual OS:

http://www.virtualbox.org/
http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download

MacLeod

Damn! Thats whole setup is only $165! Granted I wont have a super snazzy computer but it would be fine for my needs. Hell Ive made it nearly 8 years on a 1.6 GHz processor, this would hold me over for at least a couple more years.

Im fine with Windows XP. I actually prefer it to both Vista and Leopard so Id have no qualms about continuing to use it as my OS.

Now the questions:

How hard is it to do this? Is it simply a matter of plugging everything in then turning it on? Or will I have to totally upgrade/update my BIOS and some other things?

Thanks for all the help Sami! Much appreciated!

AsSiMiLaTeD

The stuff that Sami linked will work, but I can see a couple problems you might run into.

1 - I'm not sure if / how well that case will support you throwing in a new motherboard, so you may need to add a new case and power supply to the mix.

2 - Most of the boards out there, including the one that Sami linked, only have one IDE port. That's going to be a problem for you because I imagine your current hard drive is an IDE drive, and your cd or dvd drive is going to be IDE as well. If I'm wrong and one of those is sata then you can stop reading here, but given the age of your PC unless it was bleeding edge at the time I doubt it's sata. So the problem is you're going to have two IDE drives and only one IDE port on the PC. You can hook up to two devices on one port, but a) it's generally not a good idea to have your hard drive and optical drive on the same port and b) you'd have to likely re-arrange those drives due to cabling issues, which your case may not permit.

2b - If the scenario above were to force you into buying a new hard drive (sata) then you could likely run into an issue installing the OS, unless you have a free and clear copy of Windows XP. You likely have a Sony oem copy of the OS that came with your current PC and not a full copy, which means you're most likely going to run into at least one of two issues - a)you won't be able to install it on non-Sony hardware, some mfgs put checks into place that won't allow you to install their OS unless it's on their hardware and/or b)even if you are able to install the OS somehow, the legality of that is questionable at a minimum. Again all that assumes that you have a Sony copy of the OS.

3 - It doesn't look like that cpu and motherboard comes with a heatsink and fan, so you'd need to grab one of those and factor in that cost as well.

At the end of the day it's probably easiest to just build or buy an entirely new PC. It has a couple advantages:

1 - You get to do it right the first time instead of trying to slap a band-aid on your current PC. I can't tell you how many times I've been down this road with people, it almost always ends up costing more in the long run when people try to upgrade here and there because they almost always end up with something they don't like and end up having to spend even more to get what they want. It's much easier to just save for an extra month or whatever and do it right the first time.
2 - Building or buying an entire new PC means that you'll also still have this old one to play with. I don't take you as the type of guy who would want to play with installing linux and getting into the more technical side of things, but if nothing else you'd have another PC to surf the internet or do email with or give to a kid or whatever.

Personally, I say do it right the first time and be done with it. That doesn't mean you have to go out and buy the badass core i7 chip, it just means building or buying a solid PC to begin with. If you're not into the building thing, just buy a Dell. They're not the greatest on the planet, but I'll admit that they do have their place and certainly work well for what most people including yourself want to do.

If you're wanting to build your own PC you can get a better rig with better components for not much more money, here's one I threw together in like 5 minutes on NewEgg:

Case and Power Supply - $65 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147001
CPU and Motherboard - $180 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.172826
Memory - $25 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227124
Hard Drive - $55 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148262
Video Card - $75(65 AR) - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102820
Windows Vista - $90 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116480

So that's $500 for the full deal. You could buy a Dell for around that same price, but this one will have better parts and ultimately be a better PC. Really either would be a good choice, just depends on how much work you're willing to put into it.

Sami

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

a)you won't be able to install it on non-Sony hardware, some mfgs put checks into place that won't allow you to install their OS unless it's on their hardware and/or b)even if you are able to install the OS somehow, the legality of that is questionable at a minimum.

a) You could do a drive copy (http://www.feyrer.de/g4u/)
b) It is not allowed by the OEM licensing if motherboard is changed

"If the motherboard is replaced because it is defective, you do NOT need to acquire a new operating system license for the PC. The replacement motherboard must be the same make/model or the same manufacturer’s replacement/equivalent."

You could call MS and tell a motherboard was replaced in compliance of the OEM EULA, they will activate it but...

I do mostly build a new computer whenever it is time to upgrade, the old one always has a use and almost 100% they end up with some Linux distro. I end up moving my copy of Vista to the new machine. I don't have OEM version so I am legally allowed to transfer it.

Sami

Mac, if you are not comfortable building a new system, I can do it for you. Buy the parts, have them shipped out to my house and I will built it and configure it. I will also do full hardware testing so none of the components are defective. Once it's done, you just refund me the shipping costs to your house. I normally charge for this but lets call a CP discount on it (free). PM me if you are interested.

I would suggest adding two more hard drives for the system, in mirrored RAID configuration. This would give you a solid data storage. Not necessary if you do backup to external storage but something very nice to have.

edbert

Sami wrote: »

Mac, if you are not comfortable building a new system, I can do it for you. Buy the parts, have them shipped out to my house and I will built it and configure it. I will also do full hardware testing so none of the components are defective. Once it's done, you just refund me the shipping costs to your house. I normally charge for this but lets call a CP discount on it (free). PM me if you are interested.

I would suggest adding two more hard drives for the system, in mirrored RAID configuration. This would give you a solid data storage. Not necessary if you do backup to external storage but something very nice to have.

That's a heck of a deal you are offering Sami! Mac, I would take him up on it. You get a great machine but don't have to worry about the headaches of making it all work. You just have to fire it up and go. Good luck!

AsSiMiLaTeD

Sami's offer is a great deal. If you decide you want to do it yourself it's not very difficult either, and I'm sure either of us could help out. To help you gauge whether or not you want to attempt the build yourself, here's a high level rundown of what's involved in building your PC:

1 - Before you start go ahead and find the model numbers to all your components and download the drivers for your operating system of choice - all these should easily fit on one cd.
2 - Mount the CPU and heatsink and fan to your motherboard, make sure you plug the fan into the cpufan pins on your motherboard. The cpu only goes in one way, just pay attention to how you install it, it's hard to mess up unless you're working blindfolded. Your CPU will probably come with thermal grease, it goes between your cpu and heatsink, use it, a think layer should do well, roughly 2 grains or so of rice spreak out evenly is a good measure
3 - Mount the 'assembled' motherboard in the case and connect the power, reset, and led cables that are coming from the front of the case to the pins on the motherboard (the motherboard manual will have a blow up diagram of what goes where)
4 - Mount the hard drive and optical drive(s) in the case using hardware that came with the case
5 - Install memory in the motherboard - it only goes in one way
6 - Install video card in the motherboard
7 - Run sata and/or ide cables from drives to motherboard. These are the data cables, each drive will have one
8 - Run power to all the components. You should have at least one big connector that goes to the motherboard, and you might have a smaller supplimental 4 or 8 pin connector as well (that will likely plug into another area of the motherboard, so check your manual to see if you have one and where it is. You should have a power cable going to each of your drives. You may have a power cable that goes to the video card, you'll have to look (the cideo card I linked does not look like it needs additional power). be sure to plug in the power to any of the fans inside your case.
10 - Plug in your monitor, keyboard, and mouse and plug the PC into the wall
11 - Boot up the PC and throw the Windows CD in (if the computer doesn't boot off the CD you may need to set the BIOS to boot from CD. When your computer start up it'll tell you to press a key (usually delete or tab) to get into the bios menu, in there you'll find an option to change your boot order, just make the CDROM first on the list, save and exit bios then you should be good.)
12 - Install Windows, really simple with Vista
13 - Install drivers (that you downloaded in step 1) for any devices that it doesn't automatically find
14 - Done

AsSiMiLaTeD

Mac, you may want to keep an eye on this thread over on fatwallet for the next few days if you decide you want to go the Dell route, looks like they'll be having some good deals...

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/hot-deals/909424/

MacLeod

I think Ill skip building my own. Assimilated makes a good point that I could buy a Dell off their website for about the same price as I could build one - and the Dell would have a warranty. Pretty much a no-brainer.

I went to my dads today and got on his older Sony Vaio that has the Pentium 4 2.4 GHz (mine is 1.6) and he's having the same problems Im having on the same websites. This Intel site is the worst. On my computer, the animated dude is so choppy and broken you can barely understand him and my CPU is pegged at 100%. On my dads 2.4 system, his isnt as bad but still pretty rough and is also at 100% CPU. His new computer with the Core 2 Duo is at 75% usage and plays it pretty good with only a break now and then. (The iMac at Best Buy played it flawlessly with only 40% CPU usage) So since the biggest CPU I could upgrade to without swapping the motherboard would be that 2.4 GHz Pentium, there is really no need since its not working any better.

So it boils down to I think you guys were right from the start that I would be better off just buying an "over the counter" computer from Dell or Best Buy or something. Since Im not a gamer and the heaviest thing Ill be doing is transferring my home movies onto a DVD, I dont think Id ever need a $4000 computer.

Ill just start trying to scrounge up some cash and keep an eye on the different websites looking for some deals. When I get up to $600 Ill see whats out there. If I win the lottery its a 24" iMac for me!

Thanks again guys! Sami and Assmilated much thanks.

Sami

MacLeod wrote: »

I think Ill skip building my own. Assimilated makes a good point that I could buy a Dell off their website for about the same price as I could build one - and the Dell would have a warranty. Pretty much a no-brainer.

Those Dell's will always be more $$$ when you figure everything together. The dollar amount is deceptive as by building your own you're putting in (in most cases) much better and faster components. You might see a comparable configuration since you're most likely to look only at a) CPU b) memory and c) hard drive space.

When I put together my E6400 machine a long time ago, I paid a hundred or so more than what the cheapest E6400 Dell would have cost, but...I got much better motherboard, faster RAM and a much much better video card. Because of the better motherboard and an extra $120 investment in water cooler later I am running the 2.2GHz Intel at 3.0GHz all day long without any problems (and at much lower temperatures even), and that does make a huge difference in performance. I could overclock it all the way up to 3.3GHz but it wouldn't pass reliability tests so I went to a safe 3.0GHz figure. As I do also game, the video card makes a big difference as well, you don't usually get much with those prebuilt brand computers.

You can't overclock many brand name computers as their BIOS usually does not allow this. Not sure about Dell but most likely they won't allow it either. If you pick your motherboard carefully, the extra money could pay itself back in multiples by doing a moderate overclocking.

Sami

MacLeod wrote: »

This Intel site is the worst. (The iMac at Best Buy played it flawlessly with only 40% CPU usage)

Just for comparisons sake, I played that on my Core2 with Vista 64bit. CPU around 33-34%. I also have a Sony Vaio PVC-RX850 here from my wife's work that I just installed Ubuntu on. It's the 2.4GHz P4 that your dad has, CPU is at 82-85% (and this is right now out-of-the-disc basic Ubuntu install, no modifications or optimization).

psomers

My preference is is MAC. I have been a Network Tech for 15 years and have played with pc's as far back as I can remember, and when my last pc died. I decided to try a MAC.
I will never buy another pc again. MAC is expensive, but I have had no problems. No need to worry about spyware, and you can see the quality in the product. Yes they are expensive and overpriced, but , to me and anyone that has used my MAC since I picked it up last MAY say the same thing. It's worth it. If you still need Windows, I use VMWARE. It's easier than a dual boot. Try one out at an Apple store before you knock it.It may change your mind.
Just my 2 cents.
Paul

AsSiMiLaTeD

I love it how Mac people think they're immune to things like viruses and spyware. Sure, they're less common on a MAC, but they still exist. Don't you people get it, as more and more people switch over to Mac you're going to start to see more and more 'hackers' start writing viruses and stuff for them. It's not like Mac doesn't get viruses and spyware because it's 'better' - they're just not used by a large portion of the population and as a consequence people don't spend as much time writing viruses and stuff for them.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Wierd, I wonder why that video is so taxing on the CPU? I played it on my internet pc here, which is a Sempron 2800 and it plays ok, but the audio is a bit choppy in parts, and pegs my cpu out at 100%.

On my gaming machine with my Q6600 overclocked to 3.6 it uses about 20% at max, for comparison.

fatchowmein

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

Wierd, I wonder why that video is so taxing on the CPU? I played it on my internet pc here, which is a Sempron 2800 and it plays ok, but the audio is a bit choppy in parts, and pegs my cpu out at 100%.

On my gaming machine with my Q6600 overclocked to 3.6 it uses about 20% at max, for comparison.

Audio/video playback from that website is software driven and taxes my Q9300 2.5 at 21-29% (iexplorer.exe/Internet Explorer). On the other hand, playing back a DVD vob file through Media Player Classic Home Cinema yields 5-7% cpu utilization. Why is a website more taxing than a DVD file playing a movie at 1680x1050? The codecs and filters in the mpc-hc software video player uses my video card (Radeon HD4850) to process the video and audio so the cpu remains unburden.

So it depends on a combination of things such as whether the software interface is using the cpu or video card for video/audio playback and whether your cpu or video card is up to the task.

AsSiMiLaTeD

not to mention it's a flash movie, which I didn't notice immediately and flash is notirious for using up gobs of cpu to get the job done

tcrossma

MacLeod wrote: »

I went to my dads today and got on his older Sony Vaio that has the Pentium 4 2.4 GHz (mine is 1.6) and he's having the same problems Im having on the same websites. This Intel site is the worst. On my computer, the animated dude is so choppy and broken you can barely understand him and my CPU is pegged at 100%. On my dads 2.4 system, his isnt as bad but still pretty rough and is also at 100% CPU. His new computer with the Core 2 Duo is at 75% usage and plays it pretty good with only a break now and then.

On my fairly low-end Core 2 1.8 ghz machine the animation is perfectly fluid with about 55% processor usage.

BjornB17

Macs are the Bose of the computer world. Don't tell my wife i said that, she loves her Mac.

But this is coming from a guy who built his own PC: 4 GHz, 4 GB ram, dual 1 gb Radeon 4870's so obvioulsy im biased

Sami

BjornB17 wrote: »

Macs are the Bose of the computer world.

True and false. True in a sense that there are comparable products for less money, false in a sense that it would be a bad product.

BjornB17

Sami wrote: »

True and false. True in a sense that there are comparable products for less money, false in a sense that it would be a bad product.

When did i say that Bose was a bad product?

Sami

BjornB17 wrote: »

When did i say that Bose was a bad product?

You didn't, I did. That was my view of the statement Bose = Mac. I didn't say or mean you were wrong. Bose HTIB's are a bad product (IMHO), their headphones are said to be decent but still overpriced. If you only meant the image built for the uninformed public then yes, Mac is Bose.

BjornB17

Sami wrote: »

You didn't, I did. That was my view of the statement Bose = Mac. I didn't say or mean you were wrong. Bose HTIB's are a bad product (IMHO), their headphones are said to be decent but still overpriced. If you only meant the image built for the uninformed public then yes, Mac is Bose.

I highly recommend Bose. The speakers are so small but they sound like speakers that are much bigger and cost five times as much. The sales guy told me that and I have to agree with him. Using Monster cable really brought the best out of them. Eargasm

Sami

BjornB17 wrote: »

Using Monster cable really brought the best out of them. Eargasm

NO, NO, NO... The cable needs to be at least half of the cost of the system. Monster? Phhhft...way too cheap and not even exotic.

John30_30

BjornB17 wrote: »

Macs are the Bose of the computer world. Don't tell my wife i said that, she loves her Mac.

But this is coming from a guy who built his own PC: 4 GHz, 4 GB ram, dual 1 gb Radeon 4870's so obvioulsy im biased

Middlin' muscle system (for an old guy ) from Tigerdirect. Got here in 3 days, and I didnt' really need the big cooling fan, but I'm from the school of Cooler is Better. Plus 25-30 bucks worth of rebates. Finally going over to the Intel-side from many years of AMD:

1 S167-4520 - Sony DRU-V200S/BR DVD Rewritable Drive SATA - 20x DVD±R, 8x DVD+RW, 6x DVD-RW, 8x DVD+R DL, 12x DVD-R DL, 12x DVD-RAM, 16x... $39.99

1 A271-4650 - Sapphire Radeon HD 4650 - 512MB DDR2, PCI Express 2.0, CrossFireX, Dual-Link DVI, VGA, $59.99

1 K24-6032 - Kingston PC6400 800MHz 4GB DDR2 Desktop Memory - 4096MB, 240 Pin $42.99

1 CP1-DUO-E7400 - Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 Processor BX80571E7400 - 2.80GHz, 3MB Cache, 1066MHz FSB, Wolfdale-3M, Dual-Core, Retail, Socket 775 $119.99

1 I69-2172 - Intel DP45SG Motherboard - Intel P45 Express, Socket 775, DDR3 1333/1066/800 MHz, 7.1 Audio, CrossFire (2) PCI Express 2.0... $139.99

1 TC3J-4032 P - Power Up 5511 Silver ATX Mid-Tower Case with Clear Side, Front USB and Audio Ports and 450-Watt Power Supply $49.99
1 S457-1035 - Masscool 8W553 / Socket 775 / Aluminum / CPU Cooling Fan $24.99

1 TSD-1000H4 - Hitachi 7K1000.B Hard Drive - 1TB, 7200RPM, 16MB, SATA-300, OEM $89.99
Shipping & Handling (Ground (3 to 7 days)) : $24.58
Tax (OK) : $0.00
Total: $592.50

Ten, eleven years ago, I got a 1.2 gig hard drive system with 16MB RAM upgraded to 48 a few months later, modem, 90Mhz (Pentium class) IBM chip- (can't even remember that 3rd maker anymore) Win95, monitor for about the same $.

John30_30

John30_30 wrote: »

1 K24-6032 - Kingston PC6400 800MHz 4GB DDR2 Desktop Memory - 4096MB, 240 Pin $42.99

1 CP1-DUO-E7400 - Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 Processor BX80571E7400 - 2.80GHz, 3MB Cache, 1066MHz FSB, Wolfdale-3M, Dual-Core, Retail, Socket 775 $119.99

1 I69-2172 - Intel DP45SG Motherboard - Intel P45 Express, Socket 775, DDR3 1333/1066/800 MHz, 7.1 Audio, CrossFire (2) PCI Express 2.0... $139.99


1 S457-1035 - Masscool 8W553 / Socket 775 / Aluminum / CPU Cooling Fan $24.99

Well, break out the Kickme sign for yrs trly. That board is not backward compat with DDR2. I know the one I looked at right before I clicked Add to Cart was. And for my mollification, the Tigerdirect tech helper I called also thought it worked.
Gave me an RMA, ordered the Right Stuff, put it all aside for a few more days. Oh well.:rolleyes: Time for some Ray Charles & Friends and maybe a snork of Jameson's. :cool:, yeah....

BjornB17

John30_30 wrote: »

Well, break out the Kickme sign for yrs trly. That board is not backward compat with DDR2. I know the one I looked at right before I clicked Add to Cart was. And for my mollification, the Tigerdirect tech helper I called also thought it worked.
Gave me an RMA, ordered the Right Stuff, put it all aside for a few more days. Oh well.:rolleyes: Time for some Ray Charles & Friends and maybe a snork of Jameson's. :cool:, yeah....

Well despite that little error..

I built a PC with similar specs for my dad (same CPU, ram, video card) and it's still super fast.... you should be good to go