XLR versus "good" analog interconnects

BlueFox

Anyone have experience with comparing XLR connections versus a good analog interconnect with RCA connectors?

Specifically, would an inexpensive XLR be equal to or better than an analog interconnect?

Also, are expensive XLR cables better than inexpensive XLR cables, or is this case more like HDMI cables where any differance between inexpensive and expensive is negligible.

Hawkeye

I'll give it a shot, since I recently traveled this road!

XLR-RCA: I was using Mogami Gold XLR ICs @ 1 meter. They ran me about $35 X 4 at Guitar Center. I thought they were a solid performer across the whole spectrum. They do not emphasize any particular area, very quiet and were a great wire to use as a baseline. I then moved to Mapleshades Excalibur Ribbons with RCAs. About $250 used for 2 pair @ 1 meter. I really liked these wires. They brought a bit of body to the mids which was what I was looking for while not disturbing the top and bottom. Very fragile and unconventional looking but they are behind the rack and I don't see them!
My system is fully balanced and can utilize the XLR to it's full benefit. The XLR was much quieter than the RCA which almost sounded rounder and fuller. If I had to choose one, it would have been the Mapleshades RCA.

XLR-XLR: I've tried three different companies in three price levels. Mogami @ $70 per pair, Signal cable @ $100 per pair and WireWorld @ $700 per pair. The build quality on the 2 inexpensive wires was OK with minor defects and would suit me. The expensive wire is much larger and has more heft to it, there is no visible defect and one can tell that some time and effort went into the construction. The Mogami is a copper wire and the Signal and WireWorld are silver. After trying the Signals I was a little leary of trying another silver wire. Fortunately, my dealer is allowing me to try the silvers for a month. There is an obvious difference to me in the Signal and WireWorld. I'm not certain I'm going to remain with silver, but I will remain with WireWorld even if I step back to copper. So the big question is was the price difference worth it? I'd say it depends on if your system is capable of showing the difference and to me, the WireWorlds are getting my system closer to what I desire and the cost was worth it.

Gordon

hearingimpared

Very nice write up Gordon.

Ricardo

I think the biggest difference is not in the cables, but in how your components perform as balanced/single ended, and if they are truly fully balanced. Normally components that are fully balanced will have different gain, different input impedance, and even work different internally when used as SE or balanced. This will have a greater impact on how they sound, than the cables you use in either configuration.

heiney9

Also to add to Ricardo's statement, some equipment is designed to run balanced and the single ended RCA connections are after thoughts to accommodate users who aren't capable of being fully balanced. Somewhere in the owners manual it should state this.

Many fully balanced designs have a slight performance loss when run un-balanced. These are usually your higher end equipment manufacturer's. Again if that's the case the manufacturer will usually mention it in their literature.

H9

reeltrouble1

A wise man once said Balanced trumps Unbalanced.

Blue I would get some decent Analog XLR cables, your best bet is to see if your gear has a fully balanced circuit, which would certainly seal the deal as to what you should do.

RT1

heiney9

Also keep in mind to get the full benefit, every component in the chain all the way to your speakers needs to be a fully balanced design.

H9

Hawkeye

Ricardo, I'm not putting words in your mouth but are you saying it is comparing apples to oranges? If not, sorry

I think comparing RCA to XLR is an apple to orange comparison. Different circuits being used for each will effect the sound to some degree. On the other hand, XLR to XLR is an apple to apple comparison, which in my case exhibited remarkable differences.

Gordon

heiney9

Hawkeye wrote: »

Ricardo, I'm not putting words in your mouth but are you saying it is comparing apples to oranges? If not, sorry

I think comparing RCA to XLR is an apple to orange comparison. Different circuits being used for each will effect the sound to some degree. On the other hand, XLR to XLR is an apple to apple comparison, which in my case exhibited remarkable differences.

Gordon

Except in the cases where XLR connections are offered but the component in question isn't a truely balanced design.......in that case RCA vs. XLR really goes out the window. No more apples to apples

Some lesser components are not truly balanced, but in order to offer XLR connections the 2 halves of the circuit are simply bridged.....not a true balanced config and really inferior to fully balanced topology.

H9

Ricardo

Right; RCA to XLR = Apples to Bananas (Didn't like your choice of words )

Hawkeye

H9, Yea, I guess I should have clearer on that.

Gordon

BlueFox

heiney9 wrote: »

Also keep in mind to get the full benefit, every component in the chain all the way to your speakers needs to be a fully balanced design.

The balanced components I have are Benchmark Dac1 (in and out), Cambridge-Audio 840E preamp (in/out), two Cambridge-Audio 840W amps, and, on order, Sony 5400ES SACD player.

Currently I have moderately priced, around $100, XLRs between the Benchmark, 840E, 840W, and I was wondering if it would be worthwhile to go to expensive XLR, or buy Mapleshade analog ICs instead. I have a Mapeshade digital cable and speaker wire that really made a big differance in sound. Plus I love their unconventional approach to wire design.

Thanks for the feedback.

Hawkeye

BlueFox, Do you want to try the MS Excalibur RCAs before you buy them? I've 2 sets lying here and if your interested let me know. I'm not attempting to sell them to you, just offering them as a trial.

Gordon

reeltrouble1

This thread is going Banana's.

Apples Oranges and Pinapples as well.

Certainly enough fruit to bake a PIE

RT1

TECHNOKID

Anyone have experience with comparing XLR connections versus a good analog interconnect with RCA connectors?

So what you are comparing is BALANCED versus UNBALANCED signal(s). XLR cabling is mainly used in the proffessional field. IE: we do conferences, meetings Interpretation systems, videoconferencing, webcasting... all of this must used XLR connections (balanced signals)...

Musicians also have requirement for such. The balance signal will compare the 2 signals electronically and trash unwanted noises. In order to be efficient, both INPUT(S) and OUTPUT(S) must be balanced (XLR) connections. If not, you are not achieving the end result. Therefore, are you personal speakers balanced or simply line level? Most of our home speakers are line level therefore UNBALANCED therefore, don't waiste the money!

However, some Home High End receivers and associated gear uses XLR/Balanced connections... If you can afford the gear, you can afford the connection ALL the way fro input to OUTPUT (speakers) the go for it!

Common use of XLR connections: Microphones through mixers out through balanced Powered Speakers... Musicians equipment will tie to mixing console and compressor(s) etc... etc... through balance XLR connections... Anything that is using line level (guitar or other electric equipments) will be interfaced through mixers, consoles in order to provide XLR/Balanced output.

Proffessional concerts will use such connections. Again, unless you have HIGH END GEAR and associated components, it is not viable/worthwhile using XLR connections. Also a fact, if you are providing audio signals through players, this balance connection is not as critical as microphones or any external devices that can pick-up external noise/sound.

As an example, I am concerned when using microphones but when simply playing music for our Xmas party, NO problem what so ever. However, I find that computers will be much better if I use a DI box which will convert the computer line level into balanced/XLR as otherwise I will pick-up noises.

Below, is a Polk discussion on the subject (2006). I haven't read it entirely but for what I've seen, seems to make sense.


http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-42977.html

Sorry for a scruffy post but just tried to explain best as possible but not that obvious!

Cheers

heiney9

If it makes no difference and is a waste in home audio please explain why designers like Nelson Pass (Pass Labs); BAT; Monarchy Audio; Classe; Threshold; Krell, Marsh, etc, etc, all state that for best performance (not lowest noise) use the balanced connections.

Ricardo

TECHNOKID wrote: »

Therefore, are you personal speakers balanced or simply line level? Most of our home speakers are line level therefore UNBALANCED therefore, don't waiste the money!

Balanced or line level speakers? maybe you are talking about powered speakers? Most home speakers are passive, so the benefit of the balanced systems ends at the amplifier. Right?

SolidSqual

Wireworld makes excellent stuff!

BlueFox

TECHNOKID wrote: »

Musicians also have requirement for such. The balance signal will compare the 2 signals electronically and trash unwanted noises. In order to be efficient, both INPUT(S) and OUTPUT(S) must be balanced (XLR) connections. If not, you are not achieving the end result. Therefore, are you personal speakers balanced or simply line level? Most of our home speakers are line level therefore UNBALANCED therefore, don't waiste the money!

So, you are saying that if you do not have balanced speakers then the XLR connections between components is not helpful?

Do balanced speakers also accept XLR connections? My amp has XLR outputs labeled "Loop outputs". Does that connect to a balanced speaker?


http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CA840W

reeltrouble1

thanks for stopping by and straightening us out TechnoKid, not sure where we would be without you.

RT1

TECHNOKID

Sorry for a scruffy post but just tried to explain best as possible but not that obvious!

As pointed out above scruffy post! I wanted to chip in and being in a rush to leave that is the way in came out... not too hot!

If it makes no difference and is a waste in home audio please explain

As I pointed out, quality of gear has to be there: Receivers, amplifiers speakers etc... IE: Compare to most people on this site, I have the "BABY stuff" Polk RM20 5-pack, surroundBar and my max is RM30 and a Yamaha receiver This is Polk gear and Yamaha, I consider good but I realize it would be silly to spend good money on XLR cables for such a set-up as it is simply entry level... This was my budget for gear at this point so of course out of question to go with cables that are made for higher end gear. Now, if we speak about some of the speakers some of you own (I looked at the Polk album) which are probably worth more than my humble gear above mentioned, NAD, ARCAM, Emotiva etc... then, we are talking about gear that is worht the PRO cabling.

Balanced or line level speakers? maybe you are talking about powered speakers? Most home speakers are passive, so the benefit of the balanced systems ends at the amplifier. Right?

Right, as pointed out rushing a post and matter of fact most of the speakers we use are Powered therefore with built in amplifier. So, I stand corrected: mixing console (pre) to built in speakers which amp and speaker connected. So, in the situation of HT or stereo listening; Quality/High end gear: HT receiver (pre-out) => HIGH current amp => Polk speaker. I humbly stand corrected! Would you still allow me in (chip in, participate, learn, provide and worse make honest mistake in expressing my self!) Pleassse! I'm at home and little more relax. Since I basically been away from the home gear for a few years and basically see rental gear, I tend to think with what I work with but getting involved in forum helps me get back to the pace of today's technology. Still, the original goal was honest.

HA! this is another one: Cambridge is a good example; this simple amp alone is worth roughly the price of of ALL my speakers together!

Cheers

TECHNOKID

Here is some I was trying to explain when mentionning I/P and O/P has to be both balanced otherwise even if O/P is balanced while I/P isn't then, it could well be garbage in and even if O/P cctry is better quality, what went in as GARBAGE must come out as GARBAGE.

Allow me to use the rental gear to give some examples:

If I take the output of a laptop computer (or electric guitar etc...) and feed it straight (unbalanced 2 wires as it comes out of the computer or instrument) and feed it into a mixing console, I will have problems, potential noise (impedance mis-match) and my level (which is another thing) will be too high for the mixer. At times, there could be ground loop problem also. If I take the same signal and feed it into a DI BOX

A direct box is used to connect an electric instrument to a balanced XLR mic input, not a line input. That's because most direct boxes reduce the level of the input signal when they convert the signal from high-Z unbalanced to low-Z balanced.

( http://www.crownaudio.com/kb/entry/304/ ) which will isolate the line level and do the impedance matching and thus the good I/P will now provide GOOD XLR (balanced) pre-out of the the mixer which in turn will provide XLR (balanced) connections to the balanced amplifier.

Now, if we compare this to our home gear, an example of level I/P problem could be setting up a turn table and CD for example in the wrong I/P would create problem since the TT old technology doesn't have the same level as the newer gear (TD, CD, DVD etc...). Now, all of them are unbalanced signal and like the mixer, our HT receiver will provide built in matching impedance and levels.

Now, another area where I failed to explain properly, is the balance pre-out to the amplifier (not the speaker ): The mixing console again is balanced going to my amp otherwise, it will cause a problem (noise etc...) As example, I was providing a known/proven GOOD voice signal for webcasting purpose. A soon as the IT technician plug to his equipment, he came to me and complained of having a bad and noisy signal. I knew my signal was good therefore, I asked him where he was plugged in and how. He turned my XLR connection into 2 RCA connectors to connect to is gear. I told him this was the problem since the signal wasn't balanced anymore. He then interface with his own small mixer and of course it solved the problem.

Now, let's do similar with our home gear. I am providing you with my entry level Yamaha receiver to connect to your nice HIGH END balanced amplifier. We try to connect my RCA pre-out (unbalanced) to your balanced I/P of your amplifier guess what, I create a problem similar to the above mixer => webcasting. In order to get this set-up working properly, we must interface my unbalanced entry level receiver with your HIGH END balanced amplifier. Of course we will be able to make it work but it isn't the best conditions. The best conditions would be to use gear of similar quality and properties (balanced). I hope this isn't all goofed-up again but ratter makes sense as this is what I was trying to explain while stumbling.

Cheers

mantis

Whats cool about balanced is that different brands and higher end cables don't make as much as difference like single ended. It's so hard to hear differences in balanced where as single ended sound very different.

I have compared high end single ended to balanced and the balanced sounded more consistant. If you use higher end single ended and lower end balanced, I perfer the balanced cables as they tend to have a lower noise floor and a silence about them that the single ended cables do not have.

If you can go balanced, go balanced. It's a better way to go. I was not a beleiver until I did it for myself.

Dan

TECHNOKID

I think the biggest difference is not in the cables, but in how your components perform as balanced/single ended, and if they are truly fully balanced. Normally components that are fully balanced will have different gain, different input impedance, and even work different internally when used as SE or balanced. This will have a greater impact on how they sound, than the cables you use in either configuration.

I wish I could originally have a simple but concise explanation like this. I fully agree with your post.

BlueFox nails it in his comment:

Also, are expensive XLR cables better than inexpensive XLR cables, or is this case more like HDMI cables where any differance between inexpensive and expensive is negligible.

You don't want to use $$ store cable but you do not need to use MON$$TER priced cables! Again, as tests has proven for shorter distances with HDMI cables, the same applies with XLR cables.

mwaarna

I recently upgraded to a New EQ Cinenova Amplifier...

I am using my old Blue Jean Cable RCA's(20 bucks a pop) to connect to my Onkyo 885.

I have XLR Ouputs on the pre-amp and now I have XLR inputs on the amplifier...

It was mentioned that the quality of XLR cables will not make that big of a difference...

Blue Jeans has XLR cables for about 30 bucks for a 4ft cable..

Where else do you guys suggest to look at to purchase XLR Cables?

Monoprice has some cheap XLR cables, but its odd I did not see Male to Male Cables...

Barefoot

My balanced signal cbl II's perform great. As for balanced vs unbalanced, I can't hear that much of a difference. But since the NAD gives me that option, I might as well take advantage.

Face

I would not recommend Monoprice interconnects. I found them very veiled.

reeltrouble1

balanced trumps unbalanced, everytime.

RT1

Face

Usually I'd agree, but not when comparing a mediocre unbalanced cable to a pos balanced cable.

reeltrouble1

meant for the yak faceman, yak crap, don't talk back, there is a rap in there somewhere. shame is some unsuspected soul steps in it.

OK single ended trumps a broken balanced cable.

Tubes Rule.

RT1

mwaarna

Face wrote: »

I would not recommend Monoprice interconnects. I found them very veiled.

How would you Rate Blue Jean Cable XLR interconnects?
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/balancedaudio/index.htm

BJC cables are about 5x more expensive VS the monoprice cables...

I was mistaken in my post above, after looking at pictures of the back of my pre-amp it has binding posts for female connections(i was looking at the 2 channel earlier...)

My Onkyo Rear End:
http://www.avmagazine.it/immagini/onkyo1_21_07_08.jpg
Cinenova Rear End:
http://www.earthquakesound.com/IMAGEJP/HOME/AMPLIFIERS/5CHANN~1/new_b.gif