GFI breaker question

disneyjoe7

I got a GFI breaker that feeds my pool lights, these are on an electronic timer I can talk about that if you need info. The breaker trips, and I need to reset it every 3 to 4 days. But I never see the lights to go off in the night, I just see when the lights didn't go no. When I checked for any loose wires I noticed the breaker was a little warm The lights were off, and there was no load on this breaker, can GFI breakers go bad like that?

nadams

GFI's can trip for no reason if they get old. How long has this breaker been in service.

Technically, any breaker can "get weak", even if it hasn't regularly been toggled (ie- people using a breaker as a light switch - bad idea!).

Wouldn't hurt to try replacing it with a newer breaker (well, it could, if you touch the buss bar).

disneyjoe7

nadams wrote: »

Wouldn't hurt to try replacing it with a newer breaker (well, it could, if you touch the buss bar).

LOL:) Yes Sir.


This breaker is outside in a sub panel for my pool, and it about 4 years old. I don't use it as a switch normally, as the lights are automatically controlled.

Rivrrat

I'd say you have a resistance problem in your timer, and you'll probably end up changing that out before all is said and done.

My guess is that heat is being caused by over amping the circuit. if you have access to an amp clamp, it wouldn't hurt to check. If you don't, well, replacing the breaker is the cheapest alternative.

disneyjoe7

Rivrrat wrote: »

I'd say you have a resistance problem in your timer, and you'll probably end up changing that out before all is said and done.

Ok I need to say something now. The electronic timer is a controller for everything Pool, Solar, Spa, Lights, pump, values, everything. The relay can be replaced but I don't think it's bad, I could check it with an amp clamp or a meter. It's turned by the controller with 5vdc, the ac from this relay is wired to a photo cell also. So the lights come on in the dust then goes off on the electronic timer.

So I take it that you don't think its the breaker, but something else.

sophie

is there anyway current from the breaker can end up going into another breakers neutral? if you have another gfi breaker that is the same you could switch the two and see if the other breaker trips.

Payton

Rivrrat

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Ok I need to say something now. The electronic timer is a controller for everything Pool, Solar, Spa, Lights, pump, values, everything. The relay can be replaced but I don't think it's bad, I could check it with an amp clamp or a meter. It's turned by the controller with 5vdc, the ac from this relay is wired to a photo cell also. So the lights come on in the dust then goes off on the electronic timer.

So I take it that you don't think its the breaker, but something else.

Based on my experience (high amp dc telcom power) breakers, fuses, etc that trip usually trip for a reason. I have seen an ac breaker that went bad in one of our juiceboxes that provide ac to our eq, (an, as in one), but that's one out of thousands in the area I cover, but it can happen.

FWIW, I chased a problem similar to yours. Our pool light kept doing the same thing, and I replaced the breaker, the switch, the outlet alongside the switch, and finally the pool light itself. It turned out there was a little moisture in the pool light housing due to the housing gasket beginning to fail.

Good luck with all that stuff on that circuit. Oh, and pool light housings a real pita to reinstall. A weight belt would help a lot.

disneyjoe7

Rivrrat wrote: »

FWIW, I chased a problem similar to yours. Our pool light kept doing the same thing, and I replaced the breaker, the switch, the outlet alongside the switch, and finally the pool light itself. It turned out there was a little moisture in the pool light housing due to the housing gasket beginning to fail.

Good luck with all that stuff on that circuit. Oh, and pool light housings a real pita to reinstall. A weight belt would help a lot.

Ok I agree, the last time I had trouble with the pool light it was about 1/2 filled with water. This was with my old pool / old house it was in another county that has a large transformer for a 12v / 300w light. I noticed one day while under water the light was under water also. :eek: This pool has a 120vac 400w light and a 100w light in the spa, they properly have some leaking trouble, but with 120vac it gives you an idea its dying before its really dies. So if you don't think its a breaker problem I pull the lights first.


I have been looking at the lights for any water, but you're right with 120vac its maybe leaking a little. So little I can't see it with pulling them, maybe a good time to replace the gaskets. :rolleyes:

Rivrrat

Um, if it doesn't work, don't blame me.

It's just that I'm always under the assumption that breakers pop for a reason. if you want to check the lights without getting wet, you could disconnect the wiring going to the lights and do an ohms test. If you have resistance, you probably have a problem.

treitz3

Steve, IME it has always been an issue with the load when the GFI is running hot. I seriously doubt that it's the GFI. If it never got hot and tripped before, then I wouldn't tend to think you had it overloaded at any point either. If you added something to the circuit, then suspect the drawing of too much current. If not, then you have an issue somewhere that's tripping the GFI. It sounds like the light is the #1 culprit based upon the conversation thus far.

disneyjoe7

Tom,

The breaker was a little warm during the day? When the relay is off, the photo cell should be open the receptacle didn't have anything plug in it. When I checked earlier the GFI is wired this way if it helps. First the receptacle and the Photo Cell, then the "PC" goes to relay where relay goes to 2 lights Pool and Spa.

But all in all 4 years and I did think the lights had something to do with it. It just wasn't obvious, like a 12vac light.

disneyjoe7

Oh I should add my last test with an amp clamp proved nothing, as the photo cell was open (didn't tape it up, and lite out) I didn't see any current anywhere conserning the GFI, pump draw's 8.5 to 9amps 240vac but nothing on the gfi.

nadams

With the draw at 0, was the breaker still warm?

disneyjoe7

Not sure today, but it does beg the question if no load why warm as before.

But I will check the lights for leakage it seems the most likely cause of this trouble. Now if I can get the pool light out with freezing to death, anytime soon. The Spa can be drained so that one is no problem to check, at least as far as the freezing part goes.

treitz3

Steve, cut a wire [either pos. or neg.] to the lamp(s) in question. If the issue is resolved, you'll know where to look. To be honest, you lost me a little bit on your last couple of posts.....

Of course, I am on the beer........:D

disneyjoe7

treitz3 wrote: »

Steve, cut a wire [either pos. or neg.] to the lamp(s) in question. If the issue is resolved, you'll know where to look. To be honest, you lost me a little bit on your last couple of posts.....

Of course, I am on the beer........:D

It's ok I'm not always clear myself. So I try again ok.

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Tom,

The breaker was a little warm during the day? When the relay is off, the photo cell should be open the receptacle didn't have anything plug in it. When I checked earlier the GFI is wired this way if it helps. First the receptacle and the Photo Cell, then the "PC" goes to relay where relay goes to 2 lights Pool and Spa.

But all in all 4 years and I did think the lights had something to do with it. It just wasn't obvious, like a 12vac light.

Breaker warm no load.

120vac pool lights seem to cause issues before 12vac lights seem to be an issue.

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Oh I should add my last test with an amp clamp proved nothing, as the photo cell was open (didn't tape it up, and lite out) I didn't see any current anywhere considering the GFI, pump draws 8.5 to 9amps 240vac but nothing on the gfi.

Sorry I took the liberty to fix any spelling errors, grammar is a whole other issue. :rolleyes:


Amp clamp meter shown no load, like a bad relay or photo cell drain. I tested the amp meter with a known load pump was running.

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Not sure today, but it does beg the question if no load why warm as before.

But I will check the lights for leakage it seems the most likely cause of this trouble. Now if I can get the pool light out with freezing to death, anytime soon. The Spa can be drained so that one is no problem to check, at least as far as the freezing part goes.

I do think it's in the lights now. But I do wonder why the breaker was a little warm? This warmness I noticed was when I pulled the breaker out to re-seat it, not hot but warmer then the pump breaker or the other 15 amp breaker for the controller.



If it thickens the pot any the lights on now as I can see it typing this message, but can work for days before it doesn't.

Rivrrat

I do think it's in the lights now. But I do wonder why the breaker was a little warm? This warmness I noticed was when I pulled the breaker out to re-seat it, not hot but warmer then the pump breaker or the other 15 amp breaker for the controller.

If you have resistance somewhere in the circuit, it'll affect the whole circuit. I would imagine that's ramped up current because of the problem causing the heat.

disneyjoe7

So its best to meter it out vs. current probe?

disneyjoe7

Rivrrat wrote: »

FWIW, I chased a problem similar to yours. Our pool light kept doing the same thing, and I replaced the breaker, the switch, the outlet alongside the switch, and finally the pool light itself. It turned out there was a little moisture in the pool light housing due to the housing gasket beginning to fail.

Good luck with all that stuff on that circuit. Oh, and pool light housings a real pita to reinstall. A weight belt would help a lot.

You're right the pool light was leaking :eek:

I found it had about 1/3 filled with water. So I replaced the gaskets and the lights, I have about 1500 hrs on the lights. So I couldn't see to replaced the gaskets then have a blown light later, so I replaced everything.

It first I thought the lights was leaking myself, has I had a problem like that before. But I got confused for the GFI breaker warm, during the day.


BTW yes I disconnect the wires to the lights, and had some resistance 20k ohms from ground and hot leads :rolleyes::eek::mad::o

Thanks everyone.

Rivrrat

I was wondering how that went. I'm glad it turned out to be an easy fix.

So, do you have a good way of staying underwater when you place the housing back in it's cubby hole? I think that's one project when cement shoes wouldn't be a bad idea.

I had to have my wife hold me down, and everytime I tried to put pressure on the screwdriver to tighten the screws I ended up pushing myself back away from the light well. :rolleyes:

disneyjoe7

LOL:D Yes it was a bear to put back in. I did myself I was alone the pool was COOLED 66f the air in the lamp keeps trying to go up. You know it, it was bear

mmadden28

Glad you got your issue fixed.

But just FYI, last year I replaced the pump in my system, and ever since then the GFCI breaker to the pump would randomly trip. I had one heck of a time troubleshooting it as it was not consistent. I could run the pump (3.5HP) fine for an hour before tripping. Other times it would onlybe on (at 1HP its a variable speed pump) for a minute before tripping. I was able to wacth it trip while I had an ammeter on it. It was maybe pulluing a few amps-nothing close to tripping levels. I rewired, reconnected all the wires, everything.
After suffering with the major inconvenience for a season, I was just about to give up and call service for the pump/electrical system, when I decided to just try replacing the breaker. Guess what? Haven't had the problem again since I replaced it-ran all season with no problems. :cool:

Just thought I would comment to confirm that yes, a GFCI breaker can in fact go bad.

disneyjoe7

Thanks for that yes a GFI breaker can go bad. But I need to ask what the... Do you use a 3.5hp pump for?


Mine is 1.5hp Spa and Solar run ok.

Rivrrat

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Thanks for that yes a GFI breaker can go bad. But I need to ask what the... Do you use a 3.5hp pump for?


Mine is 1.5hp Spa and Solar run ok.

That's what I was thinking, I have a pretty big pool and I'm running 1 1/2 hp too. It must be an olympic sized pool, or we're really talking to Hef and it's the Playboy Mansion pool

mmadden28

No olympic pool here and well except for the occasional bunny or two, its not PB Mansion. Its about 22500gals and the original pump was I think a 1.5 or something.

I use a Pentair Intelliflo pump. It has a programmable variable pump rate. I just program the pool size, water temp, how many turnovers over day and the times I want it allowed on and it figures out the rest. I forget where I read it, but it allows you to run very high GPM as necessary to get the desired turnover rate within the alotted time, thereby saving electricity in the long run. I guess that is why it has about 3.5HP capability. Of course the actual GPM will be limited by the rest of the system. I think my Filter is rated at max 120GPM--I haven't dbl checked that lately though, but I have had it running at about 90-100gpm thru 2" lines.

Yeah I was shocked to see that it was 3.5HP as well. Even more shocked to see it drawing about 3200+ watts at full bore, which is why I thought it odd that it could run fine at that hi current usage for an extended time, but trip when only pulling 200 watts or less (mind you it also tripped randomly at any current draw). IIRC it requires a 220v 20A circuit.

Couple nice things about it is that it promises to cut energy usage about 90% (no I haven't done any verification of that yet) and it allows me to still have it running (via programming) when we're using it but have it run at a low flow rate, thus making it near silent. Also, when I need to backwash or drain water out-I crank it up. It's much faster than before.

Besides, having that extra horsepower lets me feel the water in a much different way-the water features perform better, the imaging and separation of the sounds of the water splashing is so much more real, and its all so much crisper and lifelike. At night the lights create dazzling lights shows wheer before they were kind of dull and lifeless. All the hardness of the water is gone and has taken on a warmer feeling. ;):D:D:p I'm considering the new Emotiva reference pump next.

disneyjoe7

22500 gallons I got too say that is a POOL baby.

Rivrrat

I figured out my gallons once, and I came up with around 17.5k gallons. I have a play pool, and think they dug my pool on a Mon or Fri, because my deep part (in the middle) is almost a foot deeper than the plans called for. Not to mention one end is 2 or 3 inches deeper than the other end. :rolleyes:

Because of that I would imagine my pool is closer to 18K or so.

disneyjoe7

MMadden28 water features this thread now demands pictures.

mmadden28

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

MMadden28 water features this thread now demands pictures.

Sorry, no PB Bunnies in this pic. Just your run of the mill cement pond. A PITA to cover, with a shallow and deep end (Diving board).

It made a decent skating rink a few weeks ago



By the way, don't trust the locks on the gates-my 3 and 5 yo boys (then 2 and 4) teamed up and bypassed the mag locks with an elaborate scheme :eek:. I almost have to put an electric fence and chains on it. I'm telling ya, those boys--when they work together to solve an obstacle-nothing stands in their way-NOTHING.

disneyjoe7

mmadden28 wrote: »

By the way, don't trust the locks on the gates-my 3 and 5 yo boys (then 2 and 4) teamed up and bypassed the mag locks with an elaborate scheme :eek:. I almost have to put an electric fence and chains on it. I'm telling ya, those boys--when they work together to solve an obstacle-nothing stands in their way-NOTHING.

Kids left alone are well going to get into trouble. My sister and I 11 months apart could tell you some stories on that one :rolleyes::o:(:mad::eek::D:p:cool::):(:eek::D;)


BTW nice picture. But I'm confused about your 3.5hp water features.

gdb

Go BACK to a low, DC voltage light....That way if anything malfuctions...you won't get boiled alive !:eek::eek::eek::eek::D