4 way speaker wire shootout.

mantis

hey hey whats up everyone???

So yeah I'm at it again. I forewarned as it was coming. This is something I conduct almost yearly or every other year. I'm a long time wire nut and I'm forever listening to different kinds of wire. So whenever I come across something new/old or just more , I want to see/hear how it/they sound in my personal system. I conduct all my VS shootouts in 2 channel listening mode. I pick a few well known to me tracks and go to town. I have a few tracks I have been using for many years and find it's the only way to be completely fair to myself. I don't do this to clown one wire or another, I do it so I can hear or not any difference between and see if one wire is better or worse in my system.

So currently I have 4 different kinds of wire which I will provide Pic's of all of them today.
1) Old but true Audioquest 14-2 Cl3 custom in wall wire. I discovered this wire after a few jobs of using it and surprised in it's performance. I was used to using Bledon, Liberty and monster cable wire for most jobs. All these companies made fine wire. Surprisingly I enjoyed the monster Cl3 the best as it was soft and very easy to run/ terminate. The sound quality was exceptable as it worked just fine for most systems. Liberty and beldon offered higher sound quality but it was harder to pull , sucked when it was cold out and the spools tangled up much easier.
2) DH Labs Silver sonic 14-2. Many of you have taken advantage of Dave Shepard's sale of his bulk, I got some off him awhile back and tested it.
3) Analsys Plus Theater 2 14-2 Cl3 wire. This also came from Dave Shepard as he is also trying to find the right wire for his system. He asked me to try some out and give an opinion of it. I did a shootout probably a year ago or so
4) My new wires/ old wire is Kimber 4tc. I got some from work and Terminated it myself.We have it in bulk lengths. I ordered some Post master spades in 5/16's as my binding posts are large. I have owned all Kimber in my system before I switched to all Audioquest. I had 8tc back then. So to make this a fair test, I picked up some 4tc which is 13g. So close I don't think it will make a difference . I run my speakers in small crossed over at 40hz and let my sub cover the lower end. This will make it very fair for all wire in this shootout.

So I have been burning in the 4tc as it's brand new. I want to give it a fair chance against all my other wires as they all have many hours of play time on them.

I sold my Audioquest Cv8's which I had for the last shootout but they where so far advanced it was not fair. None of the other wires where anywhere in there class as they where 900.00 wires. I kinda wish I didn't sell them when I did as I loved those cables. I planned on going up the ladder with Audioquest then I thought about it and didn't. I have so many plans on changing this and that I gotta spend my money more wisely now.

So as I said I will snap pic's of all the cables so for those who are not familiar with the brands I am using can see what they look like. The 4tc's are sounding incredible as I sat with them this morning as they where breaking in.

Stay tuned for the results of the shootout. I will start this tonight and into tomarrow. Once I feel the Kimbers are warmed up, they are getting it.

Dan

mantis

Gear list for test.

Rotel rsp 1068 preamp
Rotel rmb 1095 amp
Denon DVD 2200 Sacd/Dvd Audio/cd player
Panamax M5500 ex surge
Preamp wired with Audioquest NRG-2 powercord
Amp wired with Audioquest NRG-3 Powercord
Panamax wired with Kimber Pk 10 powercord
20 amp circuit with a Ps audio Power port outlet.
Speakers will be Dynaudio Audience 82
Sub Dynaudio Sub 500
Sub cable Audioquest Ata 1.1 Custom build( by me )

ben62670

Tease:p

mantis

Here are some pic's of the speaker wire going to be used. I also own tributaries 16/4 bulk and Liberty 14-2 which I can also add to my shoot. If things go well, I will swap them in and out and just for the sheer hell of it , add them in. So this could turn into a 6 way shootout. All still being fair I will double up the 16/4 Tributaries wire.

mantis

mantis

mantis

To finish out the wire being used

Pre amp to amp- Audioquest Jaguars 36v 1.0 meter
Denon to preamp for cd - Audioquest Digital
Denon to Preamp Sacd/DVD audio - Audioquest Ata 1.1 1.0 meter custom built (by me)

mantis

Ok so after a lot of listening/swapping I came to a few conclusions in general about gauge and length. I'll start by saying that all 6 wires did well and none of them are crappy. The cheapest is probably the Liberty 14-2 by foot and it sounds great. If I had to live with this wire I would not be sad. Actually the money spent on the higher end wires could go somewhere else and maybe benefit the overall system more. But in this shootout the most expensive wire is not by a lot.

So Instead of going wire by wire I will give you some highlights of todays experience.
The Kimber Kable 4tc was clearly the most acurate cable out of all 6. It took some hard listening but the top end was clearer and had more impact. I noticed going from the Liberty to Kimber that the cymbals became more I'll call it "real" sounding. They also where more forward instead of ringing in the back ground. I also noticed Norah Jones breathing a lot on "Come Away With Me". I didn't notice this with the other wires as much but after hearing it and going back to the Theater 2's I noticed it was there just not as clear.
The Silver Sonic's before I felt had a tad bit of harshness to them, but now many many hours later and months of use, I think they smoothed out a bit. I remember my last shootout I was favoring the theater 2's over them and today I have mixed feelings. I'm not sure what wire I like better. They both have a lush sound and clear highs which is what I was really focusing in on. The ability to make my tweeter sing.
The least favorite wire in the shootout was the Tributaries. Even doubled up , I didn't really find anything it did strong. I didn't think it did anything wrong except sound a bit flat. It's high quality wire from a good company and I figured this would be a great time to hear how good it was compared to others. The Audioquest 14-2 really outshined it in every way. It wasn't night and day but suttle. You hear things and then go back to the other cable to hear how "that" sounded which the first time around you don't notice. Like Dave Mathews "Crush" the chimes are so clear on the Audioquest you think someone is in the room hitting each one by itself. On the Tributaries it's kinda smeared together. You hear it just not as seperate. Then going back and forth you realise the Audioquest holds more true to the sound.

So taking the Kimbers out of the mix my 2nd favorite cable might be the Audioquest 14-2. Sometimes I felt it was producing more bass then the others until I went back hear relistened. It was the clarity of the bass that stuck out not the amount. Strong cable I will add. I really like the way it sounds or better put how my system sounds with it in.

The Silver sonic and Theater 2 are tie for third. I can't make up my mind which is better. I would be very happy to have them in my system without the other. Over the last few months I have been going back and forth between the 2 and found things about each that I like. None of which is enough to own one or the other over the other....(mouthful).

The Liberity and Tributaries come in a strong bottom. The Tributaries is the worse sounding cable here. The Liberity I liked the control of mid bass with the top end of a bass guitar in Dave mathews opening of "crazy".

So for the 5th time of so a wrap up. The Kimber kable 4tc is a beautiful sound cable but it cost more then all the others. The little things it does better then the rest needs constant switching back and forth to hear, then after about 15 to 20 minutes you agree with yourself it is clearer and not getting in the way of the music. It's like opening up the wrapper. But not extreme. The Silver Sonic had a few things on the top end I felt just about equaled the Kimbers. It was the overall control and tightness that won the battle today, and it was close let me tell you. Then the Audioquest keeps sticking it's nose in my business telling me "hey I'm no push over" and rightfully so.

All runs where 8 to 10 feet in length. If I was to bring home 8tc , I probably would run without a sub and go full range. My speakers have useable bass down to 32 hz strong and then starts to drop in db. At 26 it's about -8db so it's not useable. I perfer to cross them over at 40hz where they are completely strong. No mud, no weakness , no trouble just powerful clean bass. 13 to 14 guage cables get this range done at this length very well. I will try a 12 and 9 guage wires next to see if anything changes. 8tc and maybe some cardos I will bring home. I purchased the Kimber 4tc and It will be used time and time again.

So what did I learn today? More support that the most important thing is length and guage first, build quality 2nd and then personal choice 3rd. The worse cable didn't sound bad. My system I would be proud to let anyone hear with any of these cables and I'm sure some may want to own any of these cables in there systems.
When you start spending crazy money like 900.00 for 8 foot cables like my last pair, you wonder if that money would have been better spent somewhere else and use one of these cheaper cables. I wish they where here so I could hear if 900.00 takes out the 4tc kimbers. They are less then 900.00. A lot less.

Dan

NJPOLKER

Hey Dan,
Thanks for the time and effort in writing this.
Excellent information and pictures are always nice.
Drew

ben62670

Yes thanks Dan. I'd like to get my ears on some of the Kimber's some day.
Ben

mantis

ben62670 wrote: »

Yes thanks Dan. I'd like to get my ears on some of the Kimber's some day.
Ben

The Kimber kables are smooth and clear. It's like they just get out of the way. They also seem very quite meaning no extra sounds happening before or after. I have always liked Kimber Kable. The Hero Interconnects would have made a really nice shootout. Swapping IC's and matching wires. Now thats a shootout I would really like to conduct.
I would also like to have a few people here for that kind of shootout so everyone got a listen. make a A B C D E type check off list and only know that the cables you are listening to are A or B or what have you. This way the brand name will now influence you into picking that cable because of that. I don't care what brand name the wires are, they have to perform or they are gone. So far I have limited my wires to Audioquest and Kimber. I have no reason to look at anything else except to shoot out. MIT and Transparent cables I would like to add in to get the final word on these network cables. After owning Transparent and them losing to Kimber , I'm in no hurry to bring them back into my house.

Dan

John K.

Dan, when I saw the title to this thread I was hopeful, but I take it from your description of the tests that you didn't do this as a blind listening test? The problem of course is that none of us can follow the principle of "just trust your ears" unless other factors which can affect our judgment are removed. The only way to do this is in a properly controlled double-blind arrangement. Otherwise we run into the situations where audible differences in players, amplifiers and even pieces of wire are described in sometimes lavish terms even if they don't in fact exist, as has been shown from past results.

Face

It's funny how different ears and different gear can form different opinions. I found KK 4TC lifeless in my rig.

Cable comparisons are always fun. A few of the local Polkies and I have had similar comparisons between cables, CDP's, etc... Too bad you're not closer.

mantis

John K. wrote: »

Dan, when I saw the title to this thread I was hopeful, but I take it from your description of the tests that you didn't do this as a blind listening test? The problem of course is that none of us can follow the principle of "just trust your ears" unless other factors which can affect our judgment are removed. The only way to do this is in a properly controlled double-blind arrangement. Otherwise we run into the situations where audible differences in players, amplifiers and even pieces of wire are described in sometimes lavish terms even if they don't in fact exist, as has been shown from past results.

As much as I agree with you , I also don't. If I had a few Polkies here, I could have done that very thing. Did you read my last post? The A B C D E thing? Thats a blind test. You would not know which cable you where listening to and you could go back and forth between cables and find the one that sound the best to you.
trusting your ears is all you have. No meter is going to tell you if one thing sounds better worse or indifferent. You have to listen to it. As a Musician I play an instrument and listen to how it sounds. Then I try it out on a amp, then with different cables, effects , different effect until I reach the sonic's I want. There is no different when building a system for 2 channel or theater. As long as you properly match Impedence and have gear that does what you want, sound quality is subjective. In my shootout I determined that the Kimber Kable was my cable of choice. Not because it's Kimber, I have 6 other wires here and the one that I liked the best won the job in my system.

It doesn't matter to me what name is on the wire. I could care less. I like to listen and hear whats different or not. If you read around here , I have been doing. shootouts for years. I do them my way. I have been apart of blind tests and the results are awesome. Then nothing is in my way of knowing the truth about these wires.

My life is dedicated to the peruse of audio nirvana. How I get there is my own. My goal here is to share my path, not have anyone walk on it with me , unless I invite you. Which I most likely would.

So go back and read , you may learn something, you may put your nose up at me. But in the end I'm here to share.

Dan

ben62670

If it is so close that you need to have a blind test then I don't feel there is enough of a difference. Familiar music is all that matters. I can tell tight bass from loose bass. With some cables you can tell if they are hitting the symbols with a brush, or a stick. Some cables you can't hear Alison Kraus's lips parting between notes, or her inhale. There is decay that you don't hear with some cables too. Notes just don't stop right away either as they do with some cables.

I-SIG

I know Steve (steveinaz) is a big Kimber fan. He let me borrow some PBJ's (IC's) for a bit and I didn't think they did anything better or worse than the AQ Diamondbacks. That said, I would be embarassed having any Kimbers in my system at all.

Silver, though is the new gold standard as far as I'm concerned.

Wes

mantis

Face wrote: »

It's funny how different ears and different gear can form different opinions. I found KK 4TC lifeless in my rig.

Cable comparisons are always fun. A few of the local Polkies and I have had similar comparisons between cables, CDP's, etc... Too bad you're not closer.

Wish I was I would love to be apart of a huge shootout with fellow Polkies.

mantis

ben62670 wrote: »

If it is so close that you need to have a blind test then I don't feel there is enough of a difference. Familiar music is all that matters. I can tell tight bass from loose bass. With some cables you can tell if they are hitting the symbols with a brush, or a stick. Some cables you can't hear Alison Kraus's lips parting between notes, or her inhale. There is decay that you don't hear with some cables too. Notes just don't stop right away either as they do with some cables.

It's basically how I feel. I just want to rid the idea of brands altogether until the final word is had. There is a lot to be said about a blind test. I knew every single move I made and made notes about which cable I was listening to. I feel this is a good test for me as I don't favor any brand.
I think really what I'm saying is I would like to be suprised by which one I picked in the end.

mantis

I-SIG wrote: »

I know Steve (steveinaz) is a big Kimber fan. He let me borrow some PBJ's (IC's) for a bit and I didn't think they did anything better or worse than the AQ Diamondbacks. That said, I would be embarassed having any Kimbers in my system at all.

Silver, though is the new gold standard as far as I'm concerned.

Wes

The PPj's for the money are fantastic , so are the Diamondbacks. Both cable do nothing wrong. I like them both. I prefer the Jaguars as thats what I have over the Diamond backs and I also prefer the Hero's over the PPj's.
As far as being embarrassed , dude Kimber is one of the most respected names in cables. Ray has made it possible to run speaker wire with power wires and not get interference while keeping signal integrity. Thats impressive in anyones opinion.

I'm proud to own Kimber as well as any other gear that makes my cut.

Conradicles

Good job mantis.

NotaSuv

Nice review and thanks for your time..........

steveinaz

For my system (synergy) the Kimber 8TC (I also had 4TC) give a better foundation, more mid-bass/midrange body, and portray treble with just the right amount of presence. They do lack the bell-like clarity of solid copper conductors such as Audioquest (Type 4/Granite), but the AQ can sound a bit edgy at higher volumes, and lacks some mid-bass impact---where the Kimber remains smooth/full bodied. These are just my observations, in my system. The Kimbers I have now, have been in my system longer than any other wire, and I have no desire to replace them.

Nice review Dan.

pearsall001

Nice write up & review Dan. I'm sure that took up a lot of your time especially being as thorough as you were. You can always tell when a man loves what he's doing. Next time you want to do a shootout, give me a holler. I'd love to add my ears to the mix.

Monster Jam

Frankly, I expected a flame war on this thread.

ben62670

Monster Jam wrote: »

Frankly, I expected a flame war on this thread.

Na. Not enough newbies copy and pasting articles to support their lack of experience with different cables in this thread. Also most of the members here realize that synergy has something to do with wire choice;)

Dan what do you think of the AQ's you tested compared to the type 4's?
Thanks
Ben

Vancmann

Cool