Non-oversampling DAC recos

adam2434

I'm thinking about going back to a non-oversampling (NOS) DAC. I'm missing the involving, musical sound of the NOS DAC I had a while back (Lite DAC-ah).

The Lite DAC had some flaws and I wanted to try something new, but I'm finding my current set-up out of balance, with too much detail and aggressiveness. It's just not creating the magical "getting lost in the music" experience. I believe the forwardness/detail of my DAC is not playing nicely with the forwardness of my LS90s, resulting in a sound that can get too aggressive and distracting.

I've been reading up on the offerings from MHDT and Moodlab.

I'm looking to hear others' NOS DAC experiences and recos.

Gaara

I have did a shootout a while back and really liked the Diy Paradise Monica 2, MHDT Paradisea, and Peter Daniels Audio Sector DAC. Currently using a USB Monica on my PC rig and loving it. I personally wasn't a big fan of the Lite DAC-AH or Ack Dack 1.3e.

Not to many NOS users around these parts, but I know a few guys use and like em. If you want my impressions on any of the aforementioned dacs just let me know.

Other ones to consider would include the new Monica 3, TADAC, Scott Nixon, Audio Mirror (modded Lite), or Altman Attraction (big bucks).

adam2434

Sure, I'd love to hear your impressions, including what you didn't like about the Lite.

Feel free to point me to another thread if you've already covered this elsewhere.

Gaara

You can find my notes -> here. Scroll down a little and you can find how I tested, and my impressions.

I paid ~ the same amount for the Lite and Monica II and felt the Monica was a better performer. It was more laid back then the Lite, with better quality bass and much better mids. Background noise was better with the Monica, as was the soundstage presentation and spatial cues. I actually found the Lite to be the most aggressive of the NOS dacs I tried, which is why I kept it in my workout rig for a while. The Peter Daniels beat it in every category though, so I sold the Lite and kept the PD for a while.

bikerboy

Hi,
I had a Monica 2 for a while till I messed it up with a wrong ps hookup. I liked the sound for smaller setting type music but it seemed to lose its grasp on the music if it was big, loud and dynamic. Thats why I was messing with better ps. It made voices and acoustic music very real and there. I find the TPA Buffalo that I am using now does that and more. I am going to mod a Philips CD 880 and do the NOS mod on the TDA151a that it uses someday. Make sure you are using a good digital source to feed whatever dac you go with. It does make a difference. Gaara has been a wealth of info so he can say way more than I about dacs. Good luck.

adam2434

Thanks for the link.

I've only tried one NOS DAC, and it was the modded Lite from Pacific Valve.

It had one fatal flaw - it produced audible distortion on some hot recordings. That distortion would go away when using replaygain though.

I also noticed the prodigious, but somewhat loose bass from the Lite. It also had a less prominent high end, but I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing.

The thing I really enjoyed about the Lite was the way it allowed me to simply connect with and enjoy the music. I recall being pulled into the music and "feeling" the music. I think this is the lure of NOS DACs.

In my current set-up, it often feels like I am getting beaten over the head with the music, if that makes any sense - like I'm hearing a bunch a exaggerated and overly-detailed "sounds" instead of a coherent, natural piece of music.

sucks2beme

Monica USB here. Good warm sound, but the output level is lower than a CDP.
I've been trying to round up a Keces 151 to compare.

Gaara

adam2434 wrote: »

Thanks for the link.

I've only tried one NOS DAC, and it was the modded Lite from Pacific Valve.

It had one fatal flaw - it produced audible distortion on some hot recordings. That distortion would go away when using replaygain though.

I also noticed the prodigious, but somewhat loose bass from the Lite. It also had a less prominent high end, but I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing.

The thing I really enjoyed about the Lite was the way it allowed me to simply connect with and enjoy the music. I recall being pulled into the music and "feeling" the music. I think this is the lure of NOS DACs.

In my current set-up, it often feels like I am getting beaten over the head with the music, if that makes any sense - like I'm hearing a bunch a exaggerated and overly-detailed "sounds" instead of a coherent, natural piece of music.

Same boat. It was definitely nosier with more distortion then the other DACs I tried.

I agree completly with the bass, quantity over quality. The Monica had less bass but it was tighter and more tuneful.

Of the DACs I tried the MHDT Paradisea was best. If you can find one for a good price I would pull the trigger. Others to seriously look into include the Audio Sector DAC or DIY Paradise Monica3. As bikerboy says the output of the Monica2 can be to low for some at only .3v. The Monica3 has made many improvements in that dept.

If you are looking for more info there are tons of reviews both professional and consumer on the Paradisea, some good info on AudioCircle & Diyaudio on the Audio Sector, and a good comparo review here on the Monica3.

bikerboy

Look at this if you want to build or mod something:
http://www.lampizator.eu/
http://www.lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/REFERENCES/Green%20TDA%20DAC/Greendac.html
Lukasz is crazy about the tda1541a and has many tube modified cdp and dacs.

adam2434

Thanks, guys. I'll look into those.

lakesailor

I also strongly prefer NOS DAC's....I use an older Theta and am very satisfied with it.

markmarc

I highly recommend the Promitheus DAC. The designer Nicholas Chua is an absolute fanatic about removing every bit of unwarranted noise.

adam2434

Thanks lake and Mark.

Mark, I read your review of the Promitheus - you seemed to like it. Just curious - have you had a chance to hear other NOS DACs, and if so, how does the Promitheus compare?

Gaara

adam2434 wrote: »

Thanks lake and Mark.

Mark, I read your review of the Promitheus - you seemed to like it. Just curious - have you had a chance to hear other NOS DACs, and if so, how does the Promitheus compare?

Might want to check AudioCircle for this. Lots of info on the Promitheus, and at least a few members compared it to other DACs like the Paradisea.

Linky - Promitheus DAC
Promitheus is the one I wanted to try but never got a chance to.

markmarc

Adam:
The Promitheus is the only NOS I've had the opportunity to enjoy/review. Keep poking around the various forums, I'm sure you'll get plenty of experienced opinions.

inspiredsports

bikerboy wrote: »

Look at this if you want to build or mod something:
http://www.lampizator.eu/
http://www.lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/REFERENCES/Green%20TDA%20DAC/Greendac.html
Lukasz is crazy about the tda1541a and has many tube modified cdp and dacs.

Has anyone in the group built one of these tubed "lampizators"?

I've been doing a lot of reading at his site, but I don't have an electronics background so I can't really tell if this guy is a lunatic or genius (seems more to be the latter).

adam2434

A few random NOS DAC thoughts:

1) I find it interesting that the NOS resurgence has not caught on with many mainstream manufacturers. The majority of offerings are from small cottage industry or DIY operations. I would guess that some of this is due to issues with marketing "old" technology which doesn't measure well with many of the industry-standard measurements.

2) NOS DACs are very controversial from a design standpoint. Many designers of over/upsampling DACs have real issues with NOS DACs, specifically with the old DAC chips and lack of filters, which produce poor measurements in some areas. On the other hand, folks who build and own them really love the sound they produce, independent of the measurements. It's similar to the tubes vs. SS debate. I think the "sound" of NOS DACs is a very interesting area in audio, perhaps an area that is not fully understood yet.

3) I wish there were more U.S. distributors of the NOS DACs coming out of Asia. This would provide some peace of mind. I am personally reluctant to buy a NOS DAC from a small operation in Asia due to the hassle and expense of dealing with quality issues.

Erik Tracy

adam2434 wrote: »

A few random NOS DAC thoughts:

1) I find it interesting that the NOS resurgence has not caught on with many mainstream manufacturers. The majority of offerings are from small cottage industry or DIY operations. I would guess that some of this is due to issues with marketing "old" technology which doesn't measure well with many of the industry-standard measurements.

2) NOS DACs are very controversial from a design standpoint. Many designers of over/upsampling DACs have real issues with NOS DACs, specifically with the old DAC chips and lack of filters, which produce poor measurements in some areas. On the other hand, folks who build and own them really love the sound they produce, independent of the measurements. It's similar to the tubes vs. SS debate. I think the "sound" of NOS DACs is a very interesting area in audio, perhaps an area that is not fully understood yet.

3) I wish there were more U.S. distributors of the NOS DACs coming out of Asia. This would provide some peace of mind. I am personally reluctant to buy a NOS DAC from a small operation in Asia due to the hassle and expense of dealing with quality issues.

But what lies at the heart of the 'discontent' with OS DACs?

One thing not discussed so far is the DSP that does the interpolation to upsample the 'standard' 44 KHz bit rate to whatever DAC is being used (Burr Brown, et al).

Maybe not all DSPs are created equal and that this is a contributing factor for the overall SQ?

adam2434

Currently working a deal on a Promitheus NOS DAC. It's a pretty unique design with its output transformers. I've read that it shares some design approaches with the (much more costly) Audio Note NOS DACs, but not sure how true that is. Should be interesting.

http://www.promitheusaudio.com/dac.htm

Gaara

adam2434 wrote: »

Currently working a deal on a Promitheus NOS DAC. It's a pretty unique design with its output transformers. I've read that it shares some design approaches with the (much more costly) Audio Note NOS DACs, but not sure how true that is. Should be interesting.

http://www.promitheusaudio.com/dac.htm

Only downside is dealing with Nic. Nice guy, but many times it takes days if not weeks to get responses, and turnaround time is usually 2-3 months. Not a jab at the company at all, I have 2 of his TVCs, just the way he does business.

adam2434

Yeah, I've heard that.

I'm working on a deal on a used unit, which supposedly has some parts upgrades done by Nick.

adam2434

Well, I picked up a Promitheus DAC but it produced some significant hum. The original owner is a heck of a nice guy and I'm going to return it to him. There have been several reports of hum from this DAC over at Audiocircle. This is a shame because I felt it really had potential.

I just pulled the trigger on an inexpensive ($200) NOS DAC that is getting a lot of press in this Head-Fi thread: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/valab-dac-first-impressions-378459/index41.html.

It's the Valab DAC from Taiwan. It's its an 8 chip TDA1543 with totally passive output (no opamps). Folks are gushing about its sound. For $200, I figure it's an easy way to get back into the NOS sound. We'll see...

Gaara

Thats rough on the Promi.

That Valab sounds just like the Lite, 8 TDA1543 chips.

adam2434

Gaara wrote: »

Thats rough on the Promi.

That Valab sounds just like the Lite, 8 TDA1543 chips.

Yeah, the 8 TDA1543 is common to the Lite NOS DAC.

Some of differences with the Valab that I’m aware of are

1) different receiver chip
2) passive output (no opamps). This was actually a common mod to the Lite.
3) USB input
4) 1 ppm clock
5) different overall circuit layout.

I would probably still have my modified Lite NOS DAC if it didn’t produce distortion on the peaks of some recordings.

For $200, I’m not buying all of the hype I’ve read on the Valab, but we’ll see…

Gaara

Keep us posted, I for one am interested in hearing your results.

IMO no op amp is a big deal if implemented right. I have had a few sources have the op amp removed, and every time it was a nice gain in sound quality.

heiney9

So adam2434, what ever happened with this project? Did you ever get the Valab? I see you posted some mod questions over at headfi.org. What's your overall opinion now assuming you still frequent CP?

H9

adam2434

heiney9 wrote: »

So adam2434, what ever happened with this project? Did you ever get the Valab? I see you posted some mod questions over at headfi.org. What's your overall opinion now assuming you still frequent CP?

H9

H9, I still visit CP now and again. Audio has taken a back seat to other obligations and interests as of late, so I haven't posted here much lately.

Yes, I did get the Valab and posted some details on some mods in this thread.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80102

There are a couple threads on the Valab DAC at headfi, and I posted these mods on one of the threads at headfi too.

To be honest, I didn't hear much of a difference after doing the mods and have since bought another DAC (a Music Hall DAC 25.2), so the Valab has been sitting dormant for a few months.

My overall impressions of the Valab are consistent with the other NOS DAC I owned (a Lite DAC AH) - very laid-back, non-fatiguing sound, but ultimately somewhat lacking in detail and resolution in the upper registers.

So, currently I have 3 DACs - the Valab, the Music Hall, and an MSB Nelson Link III with upgraded P1000 power supply. I generally switch back and forth between the Music Hall and MSB just for the fun of it, but ultimately plan to get down to just 1 DAC in the house at some point.

punk-roc

what do you think of the Music Hall 25.2? Its been on my short-list for a while.. but i havent pulled the trigger on anything. Do you use the USB input on the MH 25.2?

Jason

heiney9

I recently picked a revised version of the Keces DA-151 MKI USB dac. I have to say it is a phenominal performer. Just about the blackest background I've heard to date in a computer rig. If I had to use one word to describe it, it would be "cohesive". I has detail and clarity in spades, but never gets shrill or fatiging in the least. Very neutral and complete absence of any digital glare. I was worried since it's not asynchronous..........in the end it all comes down to implementation and circuit design. This doesn't seem to have any pervasive jitter issues despite the adaptive mode. The clock is seperate from the chip and has it's own power tap for isolation.

I am using Media Monkey with the ASIO4ALL plug-in for bit perfect output and my office rig has never sounded better. I will be posting a formal in-depth review after I spend more time with it.

It's quite a nice piece for a budget entry. The detail to circuit design and very high quality parts and build is impressive.

More to come

H9

P.s. Note: The Keces DA-151 is NOT a non-oversampling dac. The OP orginally mentioned the Keces so I posted a follow up.

audiocr381ve

adam2434 wrote: »

Well, I picked up a Promitheus DAC but it produced some significant hum. The original owner is a heck of a nice guy and I'm going to return it to him. There have been several reports of hum from this DAC over at Audiocircle. This is a shame because I felt it really had potential.

I just pulled the trigger on an inexpensive ($200) NOS DAC that is getting a lot of press in this Head-Fi thread: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/valab-dac-first-impressions-378459/index41.html.

It's the Valab DAC from Taiwan. It's its an 8 chip TDA1543 with totally passive output (no opamps). Folks are gushing about its sound. For $200, I figure it's an easy way to get back into the NOS sound. We'll see...

I owned this one for a year. It had the distortion problem unfortunately. There was a big discussion in the massive 100+ page thread over at head-fi about the issue. On hot recordings, it absolutely DID produce distortion. This wasn't isn't the good hendrix guitar amp distortion, this was bad distortion.

Don't mod it either. I did almost every mod out there on the thing and to me it sounded better unmodded. Distortion was there before and after mods unfortunately.

I would have gone with the Audio-GD NFB 3 if I were you. Instead of going non-oversampling, I say find a really good DAC with out digititus.

tonyb

Well, if you guys give me a few days, my NFB-3 may be up for sale at a good price, have to work out a few things first, I;ll let you dac heads know in a few days one way or another.