optimum setup?

cadenceclipse

i have all connected. front(HIGH) to components, rear(MID) to 8, sub(LOW) to 12. but 12" rcas r just danglin like my eyes balls haging out of my eyesockets. its pretty gruesome.. don't u sleep much man? don't u live down unda or something?

arun1963

Yeah I have long hours and this is a bit of a de-stress at various points in the day. I think we are about 10.5 hrs ahead of EST.

Your amp would take two sets of inputs one for front ch and one set for rear. Hook up the front preout from hu to the front amp ch and one sub out to the rear. Now switch to 4 way at hu and set front hpf at 63, set back to whathever, it wont matter as its not connected and then set the sub lpf at 63. Give the mids like an 18db slope and the sub a 30db. Start from there.

If this works for a start, we will next take up eq and ta. Remember bypass at amp.

arun1963

At your hu, a 3way network is for bi-amped/active network. If youre driving full range off the amp channels (fronts) you need to be in 4way mode.

cadenceclipse

i don't need to b in 4-way, its just made that way with that setup in mind but for my application i m useing 3-way cause i thought it better. your right i could switch rcas but is a PITA the way my 8 is mounted. i tried 63hz at 24db, sounded decent. sub only goes up to 24db anyway. whatabout what i said about being more precise(using amp xover also) cascading slopes? don't u use filters on HU and processor, mac? also wasn't it u that said smaller slopes r for smaller speakers basically?

arun1963

i always figured amp settings were useful to use specially if their on a nice amp and you could fine tune more precisely, rather than selecting a preset(50, 63, 80)...i sure know its not accurate to tell where your at, but rather to your ear..

The hu gives you multiple xover point options. 40-50-63-80 etc both for the mids and the sub. On the amps this is just a dial.

You have three options:

1. Set from the hu only, bypass at amps: This is what I am suggesting. Upside is that you know for sure that the sub/mid are xover at the same point. Downside is that you have to choose between set values, you cant xover at 54hz..... My take, between 50/63 I have all the options I need. I would rather have this point same for both drivers.

2. Set from the amp only : I would be setting two dials and I would never know if its exact. I could try and set it by my ears, but ears and mind can fool you at times. I would rather use my ears for tunning the eq.

3. Set it both from hu and amp: Its precise from the hu and youre trying to match that precision at the amp as well, next to impossible IMHO. Why are you doing it this way? To get extra slopes? Well your hu gives you upto 24db for mids and highs you dont need more. So the only thing extra would be some additional cascading slope on the sub.....not worth it. I've been down this road and its a dead end.

Unless you swap your preouts you're not going to solve your problem. If you switch to 4way 'without' swapping your preouts, You will be able to xover the comps at say 63hz hpf, but your subs will get all frequencies ABOVE the xover point you select for rears. A sub should get LPF and not HPF. Given its a PITA, but it needs to be done.

Mac is using a processor so chances are he would have everything bypassed at his hu and amp and all settings would be from his pro....

I don't know about slopes being related to speaker size, but slopes are definately related to your xover points. Eg in active mode I run my momo 6.5" mid from 50hz to 5khz. At the top end I am close to the physical limits of the driver so I set the LP on my mids at 24db/oct. The HPF for the mids is either 18db or 24 db, depending on what I'm listening to. Generally 24db at both ends works well. It cuts down the background noise.

arun1963

i don't need to b in 4-way, its just made that way with that setup in mind but for my application i m useing 3-way cause i thought it better.

With your setup, YOU NEED TO BE IN 4way mode. From your hu, front and rear preouts are connected to front and rear in at the amp. The sub out which was connected to your mono amp is now dangling..... 3way mode tells your Hu that tweets are on front channels mids on rears and sub is seperate. Selecting 4 way tells your HU full range speakers (coaxes / comps in passive mode) are hooked to front and back and sub is seperate. If you dont change your preout connections here is what you would get:

1. In 4 way you would get to select hpf for front and rear ch's so if you select say 63 hz for both front and rear, the front amp ch's would get above 63hz which is fine for the comps. However the rears amp ch's would also get everything above 63. This is where your sub is so the sub would play 63hz amnd above which is totally wron. You want the sub to plahy everything UNDER 63hz not over.

2. In 3way mode, the (hu thinks tweets are on amps front ch) front min would be 200hz and for rear you would get bandpass (for the mids in bi-amp/active mode). So your front comps would only play above 200hz and your sub would get a bandpass which is again wrong.

Hence the solution that I suggested.......boy you really try my patience

arun1963

mac? u around?

cadenceclipse

i try your patience? your the one using 100 lines telling me what my HU does. believe me arun i know what i do with my HU/system is probably not normal. is an 8" mounted under your HU normal? don't think so.. in 4way mode my bass(8) sux and eq sux like i mentioned. actually sounds pretty nice now especially tweets and sub. not sure yet if im changing anything til i biamp or get 12 back...gotta run...

cadenceclipse

just lowered 8"sub subsonic(on HU to 25hz), LPF(on amp all the way down to 56hz), and lowered gain, sounds a lot better. thought i had a question..

arun1963

your the one using 100 lines telling me what my HU does. believe me arun i know what i do with my HU/system

ummmm.......I wonder . Have you understood why your connections are messed up?

cadenceclipse

arun1963 wrote: »

ummmm.......I wonder . Have you understood why your connections are messed up?

umm what? maybe if i uderstood what connections u r talking about..whats messed up? my sub channel? because my 8 is not on sub channel? thats cause as i told u i'm using that channel for 12". rite now my 8 is happier than it will ever b unless i get a sub amp for it, which i ain't no time soon...what else u don't like, my components on HIGH, thats the only spot on 3way for them till i bi-amp and i aint switchin to 4way any time soon..actually sounds really nice arun. i don't doubt it would sound nicer using lower HPF freq.. so u ain't convinced i can achieve much using higher freqs lower slopes and 2 xover sources..

arun1963

so u ain't convinced i can achieve much using higher freqs lower slopes and 2 xover sources..

No. Sorry, but I'm not.

Listen, just read this post through. Don't speed read it

Great sound, is about first hitting a stable stage and image, then filling in the details. A bit like what you do while painting. You make the outline and then fill in the colours. Would'nt be much of a painting if the outline and colours ran.

When you hit this point and look back, its a bit like being like 2/3 way up a densely forested mountain. You can see the there is only one, fairly straight path that leads to where you are. This direct path is criss-crossed by many others that go around the mountain but don't take you higher. I guess what I'm saying is that high xover points and shallow cascading slopes is not the direct path.

Setting the stage is the easy bit. Getting the imaging right is much tougher. If your imaging isn't spot on and you really focus on hearing and locating the individual components of the music, vocals and individual instruments, you may find that the image and hence the sound tends to jump around a bit from side to side as it moves from its base frequency to its roll off. To get to the point where you can hear this and then correct it, you have to be able to hear the deviation. Almost by default that means you have to have just the right amt of bass (read xover much lower and steeper slopes). Too much bass and this flaw will get covered. You can't correct what you cant hear.

When the image is right or right enough, the spooky thing about the sound is how still it is. That was my first reaction. It's now just a big wow factor.

cadenceclipse

rite on..
that 4th paragraph about the densely forested mountain paths is classic .

update- now have subsonic and LPF for 8inch all the way down(14hz subsonic and 56hz LPF) and still working with HPF down(56hz), so guess amp is where u guys recommended, all the way down, unless that was u mac that said to let it roll off on top end(LPF), which i have heard b4 from other people..