optimum setup?

cadenceclipse

most recent change/upgrade pulled rear new eclipse 6x9 point source and used ch 3 and 4 for 8 inch mounted in front of hatchback. maybe i should pull the 8 and biamp my kickpanel enclosed eclipse compents. also have 12 inch ported sub. on the other hand eclipse tells me to set hpf on components to 125hz any thoughts?

cadenceclipse

such as keep 8 inch or not, etc.

Thom

It's not super clear what you're asking. You're currently running an 8" woofer up front? And you have components in the kicks? As far as the 12" woofer, are you asking if that should replace the 8"? I'm assuming you only have a 4 channel amp so it's either/ or...

If the 8" is enough bass for you, by all means keep that. What size are your components? 125 Hz seems pretty high, but I don't know what they are.

cadenceclipse

yes 8 up front mounted under cd in 2000 civic hatch svc bridged ch. 3 and 4(150wrms). i have a7 on sub. actually a7hc just crapped out, need to get it fixed, badly! yes comps in kicks. no not replace 8. eclipse told me to cross comps over at 125. i always used 80 on hu and used amp, but 125 seems to sound kinda right. still putting off some decent bass but crossed at 125, w/ sub crossed at 80, wouldn't i proly b missing something? in goes 8 inch. comps and 8 sound very decent by themselves, but just wndering if any1 thought i should pull 8 and biamp comps. maybe once i get a7 fixed? sorry for confusion, any thoughts would be appreciated. thanks thom(for tryin)

tk421

proper up font bass requires stereo. there is still stereo info for bass all the way down to 50hz IMHO.

if i read your post corectly: u crossed the comps at 125 up... and bass at 80 down... u will have a 'hole between those freqs. ie - your system is not playing them (at an acceptable level)

equalizing to correct is not really a good idea. crossover points, slopes and levels can be used to tune your whole system if u have good equipment ;-)

cadenceclipse

sure. couldn't slopes compensate for xovr points. by 80hz i meant 8w3v3 hpf which i just changed to 63. thanks for help tk, pretty frustrated w/ eclipse who can't give me rms ratings for components bi-amped. always had just comps and sub. recently added 8 inch for more mid bass and bass up front but wish i could get by w/ comps and sub only. maybe i just need better comps.

cadenceclipse

update if any1 gives a rat$ a$$. last post seemed little confusing specially 80 to 63 part..but that was a while ago..by my systems standards..

currently running cd7200 in 3-way mode soley for 8 inch(specially since, i know, its bad, i still have no 12") so that i can bandpass 8inch (on HU AND amp) and also i get more equalization(independant high(5 bands), mid(5) and low(1 band) vs 7bands for everything on 4-way mode

so heres the kicker, eclipse components (newest and best except $700 3-ways that have been out since like '03 or something) crossed on amp at some freq. proly around i dunno 85 hertz say and Hu crossed at 250hz! i can do 200hz(as thats as lowest on 3-way mode w/ components on high(u know, supposed to b tweets), 8inch on mid and 12 on low)but 200 was 2 low i just realized! after switching couple times over past couple weeks (or months. tuning time is totally different than regular time).

since last post with arun i lowered volume from 79 to 77 and turned up gain from 0(9v) to at least 6 or 7v(who the heck knows) but sure a bit lower, i mean higher. sounds sweeeet. since not having rears like decemberish i sure seem to b missing loudness. that helped(eventhough ive tryed it countless times. somehow it seems to b finally working. crossovers to me r like the most important key...i believe me switching from 200 to 250(which i thought couldn't possibly work(of course, who wouldn't) , worked especially making front stage or highs at least, a lot louder and also more true depth, )...

i'm still not positive if i want to disconect 8 inch and bi-amp when i get my sub amp back. hard getting used to no rears this way..

so guess if i had a question i'd b..that make sense? 250hz on deck AND something on amp(at least 85 i'd say)

cadenceclipse

thats a lot of cutoff, eh? could that just make highs higher, using less on bass? i think about u guys and your 50 -63hz hpfs. must b nice..seems to make highs higher, maybe, which like i said seems to b very beneficial w/out rears

I NEED SOME1 2 FIX MY AMP. IM IN EASTERN PA. PLEASE

arun1963

hi,

Sometimes when we over complicate things both in our mind and in the setup, we tend to lose the synergy. Then, no matter what we do, we just cant seem to get it right. It's happened to me countless times.

In this situation its somtimes best to go back to the very basics and restart from there. Here is my $0.02 worth.

1. Run only the basic setup i.e. hu, front comps, amps and the 12" sub. Disconnect everything else for now.

2. By pass everything at your amps and control everything from your hu.

3. xover your sub and mids at around 50-63hz. I'll tell you why in a minute. Dont take the sub any higher as it will then get localised. Keep the max slope you have from your hu on the sub and you can use 18-24db for the mids. X'over your mids and tweets at 4-5khz with a shallow slope to the tweet (6db) and a steeper one for the mid 18-24db. For some reason the sound shapes up best when the LP and HP on the mid band are at the same slope. I dont know the reason for this but it just sounds more balanced this way, atleast in my setup.

4. Keep your eq levels flat and time align. TA is to basically adjust for the difference in distance between your ears and the drivers. I also look at it as a way to connect the 5 drivers.

5. First 'connect" the sub and the far side mid. IE only play these two drivers and adjust the TA to the point where you feel that the bass from the sub is flowing from the farside mid. To achieve this your mid and sub need to x'over either at the same point or very close. So if your mid was at 125 and your sub at 63. The two would never gel. Try it this way.

6. Once you have this, cut the sub and play both mids only and connect them. At this point you would also need to set eq for left and right (if you have seperate l&r control on your eq. Go thru macs post on tuning his sr's to see which frequencies are louder on which side. So now your mids are connected, eq'd and level balanced.

6. Next you want to link the near side mid with the far side tweet. Play these two drivers only. TA till you get coherence between the two ie to the point where it seems like the near mid and far tweet is playing as one. You may need to eq the tweet a bit here.

7. Now play all 4 drivers of the comps, (cut the sub for now) and connect the two tweets together. Once this is done play all 5 drivers and do the bit of eq. You should now have a coherent sound.

Now listen to the sound and see what is missing. At this pont you can noow play with the gains to see what sounds the best.

Hope this helps.

cadenceclipse

yeah man thanx but getting ahead again lol..my components arent biamped i'm really only using basic setup arun ie components, HU, sub(8) and amp( 1 4-channel bridged for 8 on ch 3 and 4). i've been tuning my amps everyday since the day i got them 10 yrs ago

not using 12" sub, only 8, now..

hope this helps

arun1963

yeah much better. Dude, your mind really flies around. Saying that in a good way

1. What are your xover settings at hu and amp?

2. Assume ure not using the ta

3. what are your eq settings?

cadenceclipse

of course u r...:)

thanx again 4 taking the time arun, your the only 1 crazy enough 2 give my issues a try. i think thats cool, lets see what we can do...

1.believe i already posted them but..HU high(components) 250hz at 6db, 8 inch bandpass 31.5hz at 24db and 250hz at 24db(have been switching the two 250hz filters between 200 and 250. think 250 is best though...i know don't sound right but...AMP components (how can u really say, but i'll give it a try and say) 85hz, 8 inch bandpass gona say something like 40ish subsonic and 100ish LPF(u know, between lowest(53hz) and 10 o'clock(250hz)

2. i AM using TA( 8inch-2.9ms(mid R and mid L) and components passenger side 4.4ms and my side 5.5ms though just switched it last night 2 5.1ms. took it from center dash to in front of me dash, not sure yet which is better, unless thats been stated somewhere..and not preference. i thought i heard center was best or optimum but in front sure sounded nice..

3. eq settings --i find setting each band freq is MAJOR. not just raising or lowering levels but CHOOSING the freqs to use is key...so 5 bands for HIGH(components) lowest is 200hz of course:( 200, 400, 1k, 4k, 16k with 16k lowered 1 db or is that 3(1 notch down) MID (63, 80, 100, 125, 160 with 160 lowered 1 notch, SUB 63hz flat

arun1963

of course u r...

thanx again 4 taking the time arun, your the only 1 crazy enough 2 give my issues a try. i think thats cool, lets see what we can do...

I believe u are a glass painter. Folks into design/art tend to be this way. The mind goes in 5 directions at the same time, reg folks like us cant keep up. Yeah, am a bit of an oddball I guess. No prob's being here so you dont have to thank me.

Ok a few things that I want to mention:

1. U're running the sc-6500 right? The speaker has some very avg numbers its a 6.5" mid bt only rated for 75watts, has a low efficiency at 84db and has a plays down till only 84hz. I auditioned morel elates and the dyn esotec a while back and both had lowish efficiencies 86-89db, but they got around this by allowing you to drive the speaker with more power. Both mids were rated at 200+watts rms. Your set limits you at both ends.

2. Bypass everything at your amp only use your amp for setting the gains. Set everything from your hu. Forget all about cascading slopes etc. I know this flies in the face of all you've believed in for 10 yrs, but just do it my way once and hear it. I'm also asking you to do this to get you thinking away from your amp. For the longest time I was fixated with the eq on my hu and tried to solve everyting from there. Till mac told me that I should also focus on the slopes, xover pts, tuning each driver etc. It worked I began to get a broader vision and started to see how everything was linked.

3. Having said that, also forget for a minute what the eclipse reps tell you and what the website says. These are 6.5" comps heck even jbl 6.5" comps play down to 55-60. Cross your mids and sub at 63hz give both the max slope you can. Trust me this wont hurt your speaker. A frequency response of 84-25,000hz does not mean your mid will play below 84hz. It just means that it will play frequencies below 84hz at lower db's. If you feel more comfortable start at 80hz then go down to 63hz. You can turn the volume down a bit for added mental safety. Try it.

4. Set the hpf for the tweets from the hu at max value and slope that your hu gives you. Remember bypass at the amp

5. TA : My TA is in inches and cm. I assume you can adjust the TA 0.1 m/s at a time. You want to hear the sub a fraction of a second before you hear the two mids together and then the tweets together. This is what I meant by 'linking the speakers' in the earlier post. In a normal set up with the sub in the boot, this is easier to do becoz the sub is the furthest driver. So you keep the sub at actual distance and delay the other drivers more. Do me a favour, get a measuring tape and measure the distance each driver is from the tip of your nose. Ie the 8" sub and the two mids and tweets. Will see if I can work out a setting for you.

6. EQ : Can you tune each frequency independently or do you have to select 1 central freq and then select a q factor?

cadenceclipse

1. good point but pushing them beyond their rms rating(because of underated amp, prob. not by much) shouldn't b too bad right? with only one pair of interiors every bit helps it seems. since turning up gains def louder but i KNOW biamping them(the goal) or at least giving them more power would work wonders(as their peak is 225w)..

2. ..

3.ur saying give my comps 24db slope?? u 4getting their eclipses, not polks?? thing is, arun, lowest freq i can use on them in 3way mode is 200hz, so i'd have 2 switch 2 4way mode which i kinda don't want to do..of course i want 2 get my components right though..

4. i'm not biamping, arun, ch 1 and 2 r running components, 3 and 4-> 8 inch. maybe i should bi-amp now, c what i can get from these eclipses, and ...i wish my sub amp could power 8 AND 12, not happening though..guess i would need 2 sub amps then...2bad

5. whats wrong with my setting

6. full control (what is that? parametric or something) level, q, freq. selector. 5 bands for high(components), 5 bands for mid(8 inch), 1 band for sub. or on 4way 7 bands for all speakers..

arun1963

good point but pushing them beyond their rms rating(because of underated amp, prob. not by much) shouldn't b too bad right? with only one pair of interiors every bit helps it seems. since turning up gains def louder but i KNOW biamping them(the goal) or at least giving them more power would work wonders(as their peak is 225w)..

Not asking you to push them beyond the rms rating, just asking you cross them lower than the 25ohz where you have them now. Cross them at 80 hz on a 24db slope. Then set your sub at 80 on the max slope from the hu. Are you running 2 pre outs from your hu to amp? IE one for the fronts and one for your 8" sub? If so you can set a 3 way network from your hu and bypass everything at your amp. Trust me just do this and you will hear an immediate difference.

2. ..

Cant help you if you wont let me. This is critical. Like Nike says 'Just do it'.

3.ur saying give my comps 24db slope?? u 4getting their eclipses, not polks?? thing is, arun, lowest freq i can use on them in 3way mode is 200hz, so i'd have 2 switch 2 4way mode which i kinda don't want to do..of course i want 2 get my components right though..

Run the two preouts for front and sub to your amp. Then you can set a 3 way network where you can LP the sub at 80, hp the mid at 80 and hp the tweet at whatever the max value is at your hu. It has nothing to do with polk and eclipse. Connect the preouts and set the 3 way network it will work.

5. whats wrong with my setting

A lot. Youre cutting off your mids at 250hz on a 6db slope your sub at 31.5 @ 24db. So your sub is playing upto say 60 and your mids are playing down till about 125 and due to the slope roll off 125 would be atleast 6-8db lower than 250. Youre losing frequencies in the 60-125 range alltogether. Hence set it up the way I mentioned.

arun1963

Correction to post above: with your setup you can only set a 2 way network. Thats fine just cross the fronts and sub at 80 as mentioned above

cadenceclipse

rite, 2way, only using 4channel amp. once i get sub amp or biamp, i'll b 3way.

arun1963 wrote: »

A lot. Youre cutting off your mids at 250hz on a 6db slope your sub at 31.5 @ 24db. So your sub is playing upto say 60 and your mids are playing down till about 125 and due to the slope roll off 125 would be atleast 6-8db lower than 250. Youre losing frequencies in the 60-125 range alltogether. Hence set it up the way I mentioned.

31.5 is subsonic. sub is actually playing well into 100s..

..soooo...basically ur just saying use 1 crossover and set it low..which 2 do i'd have 2 biamp, basically..which 2 do i'd have 2 run wires, delete my sweet 8inch settings,and....hey arun,(or any1 4 that matter) think i won't miss the bass much with no sub? if i biamped? i know the mids would love it..tweets also, only thing is maybe too much for tweets? think their peak is 75w(mid, 150w)..:rolleyes:

arun1963

31.5 is subsonic. sub is actually playing well into 100s..

31.5 is too high for sub sonic as is 100's for the top end. Set subsonic at like 15hz and LPF for sub at 63hz. Try this. In a ported box, there is a bump around the 35-38hz mark. There is a sharp roll off for frequencies below the 35mark. So you dont want to set your subsonic so high. The word subsonic means below the audible range so hence these would the sub 20 range.

soooo...basically ur just saying use 1 crossover and set it low

bingo. You can set it hat way now. You dont have to be biamped to do this. You can set the mids hpf at the hu and just select bypass for the tweets. The xover will split the signal anyways.

hey arun,(or any1 4 that matter) think i won't miss the bass much with no sub? if i biamped? i know the mids would love it..tweets also, only thing is maybe too much for tweets? think their peak is 75w(mid, 150w)..

Use yr 12" in a sealed box when you get your mono amp back and then bi-amp. For now You can just set the network as above. Ya and you got to ditch the 8".......

cadenceclipse

wrong, 15hz is too low its in a sealed box and i also don't c a reason 2 set any sub at 15hz specially since u prob can't hear over your age in freq. and your sub can handle 20 at the max. we're talking bout a 8 inch (jlw3)sub, not a 15(jlw7 or polksr). even polks new MM8 doesn't go that low, i don't even think their 12s do..

actually i do have 2 b biamped...wait, ur saying just run components? and ditch 8..?

MacLeod

I havent read this whole thread, Im riddled with ADD and Arun's posts are just too long and I cant understand 80% of what cadence says so forgive me if Im missing what y'all are talking about but I skimmed around and some things jumped out at me.

31.5 is subsonic. sub is actually playing well into 100s.

31.5 Hz is subsonic??? Not even close. Subsonic means you cant hear it. SUB (below) SONIC (hearing). Playing your sub into 100 Hz is going to be WAY boomy and completely collapse your stage to the rear. If youre having to play your sub that high, your front stage is in dire need of an overhaul. 80 Hz is the absolute max you should have your sub cut off at and 63 is preferable. That is if youre wanting optimum SQ. If youre wanting loudest bass, then ignore me.

i AM using TA( 8inch-2.9ms(mid R and mid L) and components passenger side 4.4ms and my side 5.5ms though just switched it last night 2 5.1ms.

That is a TON of delay unleass youre trying to delay everything but your sub. I have my front stage delayed 3.5 ms to my sub so everything sound upfront but the actual delay I have on the left mid and tweet is 1.15 ms. Im thinking something else is the issue.

1.believe i already posted them but..HU high(components) 250hz at 6db, 8 inch bandpass 31.5hz at 24db and 250hz at 24db(have been switching the two 250hz filters between 200 and 250. think 250 is best though...i know don't sound right but...AMP components (how can u really say, but i'll give it a try and say) 85hz, 8 inch bandpass gona say something like 40ish subsonic and 100ish LPF(u know, between lowest(53hz) and 10 o'clock(250hz)

Im not real sure what this means but Ill take a stab. Midrange down to 250 Hz, midbass at 31-250 and the sub 40-100? Is that right? What are the mids and tweets crossed over at?

First off, Id be real surprised if those midbass are playing down the 31 Hz. If theyre in a sealed enclosure with lots of power then maybe. Realistically Id say theyd be more comfortable in the 40-63 Hz range but thats a guess cause I dont know what midbass your running.

Second, get the midbass and sub working together. If the midbass will play down to say 40, low pass your sub at 40 and experiment with the crossover slope to see where they blend best. Generally youll want the steepest slope on your sub as possible because anything above 63 and things get real boomy.

wrong, 15hz is too low its in a sealed box and i also don't c a reason 2 set any sub at 15hz specially since u prob can't hear over your age in freq. and your sub can handle 20 at the max. we're talking bout a 8 inch (jlw3)sub, not a 15(jlw7 or polksr). even polks new MM8 doesn't go that low, i don't even think their 12s do..

15 Hz is by no means too low in a sealed box. Granted an 8 probably wont hit it but I know for a fact that my trusty old Momo 10" in a .55 ft3 sealed box will hit the 18 Hz note on the IASCA disc. You dont hear this note, you feel it. Still, a properly powered 8 in a properly built and enclosure should still be able to touch it a little.

cadenceclipse

haha lol arun, he does have a bit of a point, but i can't argue now, at least your here. come on give me some credit mac. we all know my threads aren't your favorite but if u take your time a trained eye like yours gotta understand at least 85%.

31.5 is (where the) subsonic (filter is set). where i stated this is right under aruns quote, mac, check it out...arun thought i was talking about LPF.

actually mac u have more delay, no? my components r set to 4.4 when passenger is in. when just me i change my side to 5.1 (to 5.5). 8 inch mounted up front is at 2.9 so thats only 1.5ms difference. 12" sub set to 0(never really heard 12 at this spot but figured it had to b lot less than 8" mounted right next to me)...

nice try mac your right except sub 40-100, thats 8 inch bandpass amp settings.(when u said midrange thats my mids and tweets(components) settings(down to 200(250hx) and u said midbass thats my 8inch settings. no 12" now but LPF i set to bout 80, tuned to about 34hz in ported (bomb)box. boy this getting confusing thanx 4 trying mac...i'm only running components off of ch 1 and 2. 8 inch off 3 and 4. no sub amp, nothing else..

cadenceclipse

couldn't it touch 15hz w/ subsonic set to say, 25hz? where was your momo set? u think 31.5 sounds too high mac? mac since (if) i got your attention, say i throw my 12 back into the mix, could i overlap freqs between 8 and 12? say in the 30-70hz range? or maybe run 12 up to 50hz( think i heard something about that freq)

arun1963

Im riddled with ADD and Arun's posts are just too long and I cant understand 80% of what cadence says

lmao . Yeah, Spot on. I tend to ramble. I just need to say what I'm saying but in 1/3 the space. It would be cool to have half your knowledge and cooler still to have the ability to keep things short. Maybe the two are connected.

Here's my take so far.

Cadence (btw whats your name?) is running a pair of eclipse comps upfront and a dash mounted 8" in a sealed box. The comps are off the amps front channels and the 8" is bridged on the rear ch's. He also has a 12" and a mono amp but those are disconnected, @ repairs.

The eclipse are rated at 75watts rms and have a rated freq response of 84-25Khz. It seems the eclipse CS recommends setting the hpf at 125hz. These are 6.5" comps heck even the el cheapo jbl xplod comps will vibrate down to 60. Anyway, cadence has set the sub at 31.5 subsonic and hp/bp is 40 n 100. Hpf for mids and tweets set at 200hz and.......you know what...

Hey Cadence, both mac and I are saying the same things. We both want to help you. As I see it there's two ways we can do this. First try and understand your setups configuration, then try and explain/argue over the corrections that are required. Down side is it could get ugly. Mac would walk away, you and I prob would be in the dirt

The other way is that we give you settings and connections for the signal from your hu to your speakers, you just dial it in and listen to it. If you like it, you can then ask all the questions you want. If you dont like it, you can always come back to your current setting. Hows that?

cadenceclipse

your take is acurrate except sub(8) set at 31.5 and 200hz(lowest setting) on HU. On amp set to 40ish and lowering LPF on amp(from about 100)...


1. r u guys saying the only proper way to tune using HU and amp crossovers is to only use HU?

2. would it make sense to try to run 8inch higher on the freq. spectrum(say 50-80ishz) and 12inch lower(say 20(or 15)-50ishz)?? that is, when i hook up 12". maybe for now run 8 lower(30-80ish). guess part of my question is..wouldn't the 8, being smaller produce higher freqs better than the 12"?

arun1963

Yes, doing it from the hu is more precise and conveniant. Your hu gives you all the slope you need as well as specific xover points. If you did it at the amp, your settings would be approximates at best, since its just a dial with min and max values shown. Bypass everything at the amp and only set the gains at the amp.

200hz top end for the sub is way, way too much. I cross my sub and mids at either 50 or 63hz. The sub is on a 36db slope and the mid on a 24 db. There is no shortage of bass in my stage. Its vibrant and alive.

MacLeod

First, turn off the subsonic filter. Let the sub roll off naturally.

Second, give me a link to your components. Im having a hard time that a set of 6.5's cant play below 200 Hz or whatever. Hell, most 4's will play lower than that.

arun1963

mac,

http://www.eclipse-web.com

The model is sc-6500
I was also trying to find the manual for his HU but I couldnt get it. Still trying.

arun1963

2. would it make sense to try to run 8inch higher on the freq. spectrum(say 50-80ishz) and 12inch lower(say 20(or 15)-50ishz)?? that is, when i hook up 12". maybe for now run 8 lower(30-80ish). guess part of my question is..wouldn't the 8, being smaller produce higher freqs better than the 12"?

In general, if ure aiming for sq, the sub should not be run over 50-63hz. 8" or 12". Everything else being constant, your 12" would play a few db's louder than your 8" (larger cone, moves more air). Yes theoretically the 8" should play say 100 better than a 12", but thats not the point. The point is that you should not be running the sub upto 100hz, 8" or 12". At 80-100hz, your mids should be carrying 95% of the sound and the sub only 5%.

cadence can you check with the eclipse CS for a link to the full operators manual of your hu? Really need to look at this.

arun1963

Link for the 7200mkII hu

http://www.eclipse-web.com/us/download/manual/cd7200mkII_e/audio/pdf/CD7200mkIIae99.pdf

Link for the speakers

http://www.eclipse-web.com/us/component/sc6500.html

cadenceclipse

i can imagine theres no shortage of bass there arun, specailly with those crossover points.

what do u need the manual for? ive been using this reciever and what it replace for 6 years. i think i know them (cd8053) better than any1..

i'm not saying they won't play lower than 200 but on 3way mode, HIGH (their position) only goes down to 200hz...thinking bout switching to 4way mode but then i'd have no HU crossover for 8" b/c it would be on REAR which only goes down to like 63hz...i always figured amp settings were useful to use specially if their on a nice amp and you could fine tune more precisely, rather than selecting a preset(50, 63, 80)...i sure know its not accurate to tell where your at, but rather to your ear..

arun1963

Illustrated the xover pt more for, how low you can cut the sub and still have the vibrant bass. Not so much for how low the mid goes.

Manual is for us to understand how yr hu works, so that it can be set accordingly.

Your hu gives you 6 pre outs. Two each for fronts, rears and subs. Which two have you connected to the amp?