inexpensive Pre/Pro? or give up and get receiver+amp?

infinitiqx4
infinitiqx4 Posts: 80
edited February 2003 in Electronics
Oh the frustration!

Is there a such thing as a good pre/pro for under say $700? I already decided on LSi. I already decided to invest in separate amps (right now I've got a potential deal on a Parasound 2205 AND 1500 for $1400!). But dropping $1500+ on a pre/pro that may go out of date with future formats just doesn't fit my budget (plus I'd like to receive some radio too, or maybe I'm just stubborn and need some convincing to drop the extra money)!

1. Can you suggest any cheaper pre/pro?
2. What about an HK 520 or 320 receiver (I can feel the anti-receiver flames already, and want to hear them) for 7 channel pre/pro duty? Cost is like $500 online. Would it be as good for this as the 325 or 525 newer models?
3. What about some other good receivers in this range for pre/pro duty? They'd need to do a good job with 7 channel. Maybe Pioneer Elite, etc

Thanks.
Post edited by infinitiqx4 on

Comments

  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited January 2003
    infinitiqx4,
    Using a receiver as a pre-amp is always an option. What are you using now? I'm going to do the same thing until I cann afford to get the pre-amp that I want. If possible, make due with what you've got on hand. Don't want to sound like an over bearing parent, but there are more important things in life than audio gear. One step at a time untill you have your dream system put together.

    Currently I'm using a Pioneer Elite receiver & 2 channel amp, and had an Anthem 7 channel amp hooked up to it. Worked great, sounded great.
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
  • infinitiqx4
    infinitiqx4 Posts: 80
    edited January 2003
    That's the point... my current setup is a mini-system and may go out the window soon ;-) So the only thing carrying over is the PSW650. Other than that, I've got no strings attached and am planning from scratch. This is not an upgrade path- I'm actually in the market for a pre/pro but don't see any that can compete with a $500 HK520 from an authorized dealer! Is this just dumb on my part?
  • wallstreet
    wallstreet Posts: 1,405
    edited January 2003
    Originally posted by infinitiqx4
    That's the point... my current setup is a mini-system and may go out the window soon ;-) So the only thing carrying over is the PSW650. Other than that, I've got no strings attached and am planning from scratch. This is not an upgrade path- I'm actually in the market for a pre/pro but don't see any that can compete with a $500 HK520 from an authorized dealer! Is this just dumb on my part?

    Dumb is such a harsh word. How about wishful thinking? Seriously though, I don't think you're going to find a pre/pro and an amp anywhere close to the price of an integrated amp. Now there are those that will tell you the difference between separates and integrated amps is night and day. Certainly the premium charged for separates over integrated is night and day. The starting range for pre/pro with a 5ch amp is >$3K. At that price your in Denon 5803 range which will give 7.1 plus video upconversion. Personally, I believe you can get better sound through quality separates (mostly through the better amplifier) but the value offered by integrated amps is too hard to overcome.
  • organ
    organ Posts: 4,969
    edited January 2003
    I'm in the same boat as well. I can't find a cheap pre/pro and I want to upgrade to seperates. So far I will be getting the Pioneer Elite VSX-41 to use as a pre-pro. The amp I will be looking at is Muscal Fidelity. But the receiver will come first. You should check it out. It retails for $999CDN which is pretty cheap for an Elite line.

    Maurice
  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited January 2003
    Originally posted by infinitiqx4
    That's the point... my current setup is a mini-system and may go out the window soon ;-) So the only thing carrying over is the PSW650. Other than that, I've got no strings attached and am planning from scratch. This is not an upgrade path- I'm actually in the market for a pre/pro but don't see any that can compete with a $500 HK520 from an authorized dealer! Is this just dumb on my part?

    I use the h/k 520 as a prepro only at this time and see no reason for an upgrade anytime soon. Two camps exist, those that do and don't, use a receiver as a preamp and obviously you know what camp I'm in. This said, I believe that the 520 has many options available which justify its use as a pre/pro untill you want to get into the whole THX thing. The Lexicon/Dolby processor's are excellent with mp3, hdcd and analog only such that all high end gear that is hung off the box can be totally enjoyed.

    IMHO you can't go wrong using the 520 as a pre/pro. Plus if you ever have the need for some additional amps... there right there for your convenience. A huge cost saveings can be realized at really no feature loss if you follow this path other than THX that is.

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited January 2003
    I use my H/K AVR-510 as a pre/pro and it works pretty darn well. Not to say that a seperate pre/pro wouldn't be better, but in my case the H/K works really well (and sounds pretty darn good too).

    If you really want a pre/pro, look into getting a used one. For example, www.audiosystems.com (a local hi-fi shop here in Austin) has a used Adcom pre/pro for $750 (original retail was something like $1700). If you want it, I'm sure they'll ship. They're good people and won't make you keep the thing if you don't like it.

    I'm sure there are a thousand other deals just like this local to you. Keep an eye out on ebay and audiogon. Check local pawn shops and hi-fi/HT stores that carry used/trade-in/consignment gear and you'll find a damn good pre/pro for under $700. Trust me, all it takes is a little bit of time and a lot of driving/calling around. ;)
  • Ron-P
    Ron-P Posts: 8,516
    edited January 2003
    Count me in the camp looking for a pre/pro at a decent price. Currently, I am using my Marantz SR5000 as the pre/pro and it works extremely well. I noticed a substantial increase in sound quality (at higher volumes) adding my Adcom amps, I highly doubt I'd get that much of an improvement (again) replacing my Marantz with a dedicated pre/pro.

    For now, the Marantz does a great job and the pre/pro is being put on the back-burner (unless a good deal surfaces) so I can save up for a Front Projector. A better upgrade, no doubt.


    Peace Out~:D
    If...
    Ron dislikes a film = go out and buy it.
    Ron loves a film = don't even rent.
  • nellis8166
    nellis8166 Posts: 292
    edited January 2003
    I'm with the rest on this one, I use my HK 525 as a pre/pro and it sounds wonderful....

    Regards,
    Nat
    RTi10
    CSi5
    RTi28
    SVS PB12-ISD2

    Denon 2106(pre/pro)
    Adcom 5503(200x3)

    Audioquest Diamondback ICS
    Kimber Kable 8tc biwire(mains and center)

    "Don't let your silly dreams fall in between the crack of the bed and the wall."
    -J. James
  • jltrdavis
    jltrdavis Posts: 78
    edited January 2003
    If your not wanting 6.1 or 7.1, you can generally find a Harman Signature 2.0 Preamp either used or factory refurbished directly from H/K for $500 or less


    -Jason
  • infinitiqx4
    infinitiqx4 Posts: 80
    edited January 2003
    Originally posted by nellis8166
    I'm with the rest on this one, I use my HK 525 as a pre/pro and it sounds wonderful....

    Regards,
    Nat

    Did you compare the 525 to the 520? The 520 can be had for under $500 online authorized now, a good $200 less than the 525.
  • wallstreet
    wallstreet Posts: 1,405
    edited January 2003
    You should also check out www.outlawaudio.com. For about 2K, you can get a separates setup. The only problem is the audition. They're factory direct.
  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,032
    edited January 2003
    Rotel rsp1066 and a rmb1075 is retail for 2499.99.Add a rb1070 for 699.99 and you got one hell of a seperate system.
    So for 3200.00 or so your into incredible seperates,matching and balance.
    You can always get better deals then retail somewhere.
    If you already own a receiver and want to add amps to it then a preamp down the road I believe is fine.Buying a receiver for a pre amp I feel is nutty.
    1499.99 for Rotels rsp1066 is a really good deal.It sounds fantastic.
    You choose to go Lsi...........now what?
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • byteme
    byteme Posts: 73
    edited January 2003
    I say, it depends what you're after. If it's ONLY hometheater then maybe hold out for a dedicated pre/pro, used maybe check Audiogon. The Outlaw pre has gotten great reviews, but also somewhat panned for certian things (time to market being the biggest).

    I got a Denon 3802 about a year ago and it was a great leap from my home theater in a box receiver. But I sold a B&K ST202 and a Superphon preamp to get into the home theater thing and REALLY missed 2 channel quality - which is what is going to be lacking in any receiver or even the pre/pro's. So, I got a 5 channel amp which made a dramatic difference. Again, check used at audiogon, used amps are a great bargain! Although that was great for movies using the Denon as a pre/pro and to power the side and rear surrounds (the amp handles the front three and two deck speakers in zone 2) 2 channel was still just good. So I spent another $200 for a used B&K preamp and went from decent to very good 2 channel. I've tweaked since then and upgraded to a Sonic Frontiers SFL-1 tube preamp, but the HT guts have stayed the same and I'm VERY happy with them.

    I'd save some money and get some extra power option by going the reciever and amp route rather than shell out big bucks for a dedicated HT pre/pro. Check my profile for a link to my current setup.

    Good luck!
  • Phil Dawson
    Phil Dawson Posts: 288
    edited January 2003
    I'd check out the Outlaw 950 www.outlawaudio.com. It seems to have most off the bells and whistles and the list price is $899. I think that they only sell over the internet so you may not be able to beat the price. You might also consider buying an older B&K Ref 10. YOu should be able to find one pretty cheap. B&K is about to offer an upgrade to the Ref 50 for about $1000 and that would give you a killer pre/pro for not a lot of money.
  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited January 2003
    You can do both. You can get a Rotel RSP-1055 which is basically their pre/pro with 5 amps and a tuner built in. There really isn't any audible difference in the two.

    Use that untill you can afford some seperate amps. The 1055 has assignable amps, so when you add a seperate amp later you can have 7.1 or maybe even higher as new firmware comes out.

    The 1055 can be had used for $900-$1000, and brand new for $1100+
  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,032
    edited January 2003
    Phuz,
    good call.The Rotel rsx1055 is one of the receivers on the market that closes the gap in sound quality between seperates and receivers.Rotel receivers are what you wanna look at on a budget and still want sound quality.The assignable amp is the front amp can be moved to the surround back duty and adding a amp like the rb1050 at 399.99 is a killer combo.
    2 channel good clean power for your mains,Home theater of the same sonic signature........this combo is a dream come true for thinking of this nature.Don't want to spend seperate prices and still want sound quality that the Japanese receivers can't reproduce??????Rotel's rsx1055 and rb1050 has your answers waiting.
    **** dude it will even hold a 4 ohm load with ease.......what more could you want out of 1300 to 1500 bucks.....hell I would do it.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited January 2003
    Ron-P i have almost the same system you do. I have the Marantz SR5000 (70wpc X 5) too. I use it as a pre and run it to Marantz MA500 amps (125w). I just added one more. I went this route because the mono block amps are less expensive than a 5 (6, 7)channel amp. I like the seperate amps too. I feel that each amp powering only one channel each give max output for each channel. I know that in the long run.. 5 mono blocks will end up costing more than one good Adcom 5 channel. but what the hell.

    my hope to is to go totally pre/pro. Once i have all the mono blocks in place.. i want to get a decent pre amp and see what shakes out. yeah it may be **** backward.. but it's all I can afford at the moment.
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
  • infinitiqx4
    infinitiqx4 Posts: 80
    edited January 2003
    Guys,

    The internal amps mean nothing. I have Parasound 2205 and 1500 external amps in the mail. These compete with Rotel 1095/1080 combo (IE 300+ wpc). I am not looking for a high-end receiver for its wonderful internal amps. I am looking for a pre/pro or receiver with good decoding and processing.

    I would have gone all Rotel amps and 1066 pre/pro except for the bass management issues on the 1066.

    Since this is a 7.1 setup, I'm looking for as many 7 channel options as possible. Must decode all EX/ES formats, and things like Logic7 would be nice (um... anyone have info on Lexicon?).

    Anyone seen the HK AVR8000? http://www.harmankardon.com/product_detail.asp?cat=REC&prod=AVR%208000&sType=C
    This beast can be had for under $1200 authorized online now in anticipation for the new receivers. Dual 24bit processors Logic7 on 5.1 sources.

    If I hadn't gotten the 2205/1500 pair for $1400 I would be considering the Rotel 1055 or HK8000 no doubt.

    I'm checking out the Outlaw right now (though I'd feel dumb not having gotten the 770 amp with it).

    Also, I've heard good things about the Ref 50, have links for info on it? I know nothing about B&K (including its full name or website ;-)
  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited January 2003
    Ron-P where do you find your audio level is when watching a DVD movie? I find that i have to raise the volume between 55 and 65 for good all around sound. anything lower than say... 55 is just not worth it. Do you find the same thing with your SR5000 and Adcom amp? Between 0 and 30 i can hardly hear anything.
    my amps clip at around 80 to 85. but that's extremely loud
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited January 2003
    The 'bass management' issues with the Rotel receivers are pretty much non existant unless you have a DVD-A or SACD player that does not have built in bass management. Thats it.

    "I am looking for a pre/pro or receiver with good decoding and processing"

    For <$700 get the H/K or Marantz. For $1000-$1200 I say go with the Rotel 1055. (much better than most IMO)

    Another point for the 1055 is the fact that it is pretty much identical to Rotel's $2000 pre/pro but with amps, and much cheaper. The 1055 will work just as well as most any other $2000 pre/pro out there and I would venture to say far better than most any other receiver within it's price range. Basically you are getting a $2000 pre/pro for $1200, and the amps are just a bonus.
  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,987
    edited January 2003
    A Nad T series receiver (used as a pre) will fit the bill nicely for 5 to 7 Franks, quality components/build.

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited January 2003
    Ding. Good one Russman, I hadn't even thought of NAD.
  • infinitiqx4
    infinitiqx4 Posts: 80
    edited January 2003
    THIS ONE DESERVES CAPS :D

    I'm about to pull the trigger on a HK AVR8000 to use as a pre/pro. This is HK's flagship receiver which has been tested to produce well over 200 wpc in 4ohm, with the famous HK warm amp sound.

    'But didn't infinitiqx4 just order 7 channels of 300+wpc Parasound external amps?' you're wondering! Yeah, those beautiful internal amps would just go to waste!

    That seems kind of silly- but this AVR8000 can be had for under $1200 delivered- that's new, authorized, and warrantied! I checked and it still sells for $2400 at CC and other stores :D

    And the AVR8000 does L7 on everything, including 5.1 because it has dual processors! Right now this seems like the most flexible 7 channel processor format?

    Maybe this isn't the "ideal" audiophile setup, but getting an AVR8000, 2205A, and 1500A for a total of $2600 seems pretty awesome. I'm sure that I can get a pre/pro for $1200, but do you think that would be better? I've got a few more hours to decide as the current promo ends Friday.
  • Ron-P
    Ron-P Posts: 8,516
    edited January 2003
    Ron-P where do you find your audio level is when watching a DVD movie? I find that i have to raise the volume between 55 and 65 for good all around sound. anything lower than say... 55 is just not worth it. Do you find the same thing with your SR5000 and Adcom amp? Between 0 and 30 i can hardly hear anything. my amps clip at around 80 to 85. but that's extremely loud

    The Marantz usually lands somewhere between 65-70, last night I was watching some LotR at 75 on the dial. This usually lands me right around 75db's. I calibrated my rig to 85db's which relates to 80 on the dial, very loud, but no signs of clipping. I have not had it louder, nor will I probably ever, unless I want my ears to bleed. I never have the dial below 60.


    Peace Out~:D
    If...
    Ron dislikes a film = go out and buy it.
    Ron loves a film = don't even rent.
  • infinitiqx4
    infinitiqx4 Posts: 80
    edited January 2003
    Originally posted by infinitiqx4
    I'm checking out the Outlaw right now (though I'd feel dumb not having gotten the 770 amp with it).

    I have so far resisted pulling the trigger on the AVR8000, mostly because of the outlaw for $900! I just haven't researched it much, but from what I've seen so far it seems like a good pre/pro. Does it offer a method for making 7 channel out of 5.1 sources?

    The current AVR8000 deal ends today, but may come back again soon. For anyone looking for a receiver, do yourself an check the HK8000 out for that burning price of $1200 at onecall (authorized). According to magazine reviews this beast has no problems driving even 4ohm speakers in all channels and is hard to distinguish from external amplifiers in sound quality!
  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited February 2003
    First, with the programmable AVP’s you see today, B&K, Sunfires, etc., their obsolescence is less likely than the past models, of course most cost >$2500. But today I stumbled upon a considerably more economical route.

    I own a B&K AVP2000, about as obsolete as an AVP can get (it max’d out at Dolby Pro-logic; I never took mine beyond 2 ch). I called B&K today about what upgrades are still available for it and the answer was, “only one”. You ship in your 2000, they scrap it and return to you, a custom made, not available to the public, fully programmable AVP for just under $1200. The tech I was talking to said what you end up with is a Ref 20 box (discontinued) with the guts of a Ref 30 AVP, which ain’t bad at all. I did not get all the details on the inputs, etc. of this little Frankenstein. Was just happy enough to know that B&K was taking care of we 2000 owners as they promised they would when we bought our 2000’s.

    Problem is getting your hands on a 2000. One at the Pro-logic level went on e-bay today for ~$220. Not a bad price, but it’s the first one I’ve seen in the two months I’ve been an active e-bayer.

    I know programmable AVR’s are available as well, from Denon, etc., as well as the AVP manufacturers I listed, but if you want to go the AVP route, and can find a 2000, other than mine, it might be worth looking into this opportunity.
    More later,
    Tour...
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