Powerport and dedicated circuit

mmadden28

Polkitup2 wrote: »

I will be installing a PS audio powerport and am thinking about installing a dedicated electrical circuit. I have seen some sites that recommend using 10 gauge wire. Not sure why this would be better than 12 gauge wire. My system will probably only draw a couple of amps. Any benefits to using the larger gauge?

ben62670 wrote: »

If you have a longer run the 10ga might be better. 50' or under I would stick with 12. Its more about voltage drop than current.
Same topic
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75784

Agreed. I talked a bit about my long run and voltage drop in this thread. You can start at post #21 to save time.

ben62670

MM did you ever test for voltage drop under load with the meter? Long runs at 100 feet or more we always installed a sub panel. Even standard house hold 15 amp circuits at 80-100ft we used 12 gage wire.
Thanks
Ben

disneyjoe7

mmadden28 wrote: »

Agreed. I talked a bit about my long run and voltage drop in this thread. You can start at post #21 to save time.

You could have done it like this. By clicking on post # would gave you another link directly.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=927742&postcount=21

mmadden28

ben62670 wrote: »

MM did you ever test for voltage drop under load with the meter? Long runs at 100 feet or more we always installed a sub panel. Even standard house hold 15 amp circuits at 80-100ft we used 12 gage wire.
Thanks
Ben

In that thread, post 25 adn 39. 8+% drop before - Almost no VDrop after the upgrade (at least not measureable on my meter).
My new dedicated HT/Media room will likely be right under the current system and so the run will be just about as long. I am definately going to put in a new sub panel for the new setup..

mmadden28

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

You could have done it like this. By clicking on post # would gave you another link directly.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=927742&postcount=21

Yes but then you only see that post

disneyjoe7

I just realized that myself, and was going to warn about that. Sorry to bring it up.

Gadabout

Just as a side note to thread and information for the original poster.....

If you switch to a dedicated 20 amp circuit, switch out the outlet. 20 amp outlets have a different look to them because of some of the power cords that plug into them. If you ever sell the house, the ne owner would appreciate it too.

Around here the code for dedicated lines is 14 gage for 15a circuits and 12 gage for 20 amp circuits. Also, most breakers will trip at slightly above 85% of their rated capacity. Meaning a 15 amp circuit breaker is likely to trip around 13 amps. Its also why it's not uncommon for a breaker to be tripping when your vacuuming. Most of the big vacuums now days pull around 12 amps or so.

Polkitup2

Well I finished putting in the dedicated 20 amp circuit. A couple hours labor, $15 in wire, and all the other pieces I had on hand. All in all a cheap tweak. I wasn't expecting a night and day difference and I didn't get one but I am still glad I did it. Now in a single duplex fixture I have the top outlet powering the LCD TV, receiver, and Blu ray player using the original, "almost" dedicated 20 amp circuit through a Belkin PF60, and the new lower 20 amp outlet for my 2 channel integrated amp and SACD player through a PS Audio Duet.

I have to wait for Christmas to install the Powerport - I thought about digging around under tree but didn't want to get hit. I also added a PS Audio Prelude power cord for the PS Audio Duet. Man that is one impressive looking cord.

disneyjoe7

If it wasn't a night and day thing, why is it that you're glad you did it?

Polkitup2

Good question, now instead of wondering if a dedicated circuit would improve my system, I now know the answer. :rolleyes:

mmadden28

Or at the very least know that its not a bottleneck.
And for all you know, you might notice subtle improvements later or perhaps after you put the powerport in.
Or maybe not.

disneyjoe7

Well with such a short run being it was only $15 in wire, it possible your improvement is less then someone else with a longer run. All in all there's many variables in play here.

ben62670

Short run, maybe one of the first outlets on the original circuit. No noise on the original circuit. Like Steve said... Still a worth while investment to keep other appliances light etc off your gear.

Polkitup2

The new circuit was only a 20 foot run. The old circuit was for the most part dedicated in that I could assure that nothing was running on it other than my gear, however it did have a number of unused outlets and the total circuit length was probably 100 feet. I think that I am better off with a short run and no other outlets in the circuit. Does it sound better? Maybe - it certainly doesn't sound worse.

And it was the first outlet in the original circuit.

Polkitup2

I installed the Powerport this morning. I had used a breaker tie to tie the breaker for the top and botton outlets together since they are separate circuits. This is required to make sure that both outlets get turned off if you ever are doing work with them. So I stuck my plug in circuit checker in the bottom outlet, turned the breakers off, the circuit checker light went off so I thought I was good to go. I took off the wall plate, grabbed the outlet to pull it out and ZAP! I'm like what the ???? The top outlet was still live. Turns out when I installed the dedicated circuit I had tied the wrong two breakers together. Oops. So the moral of the story is always check that the power is actually off before you begin work. :eek:

disneyjoe7

I don't think you should tie the breakers together, they are two separate 120vac circuits not a 240vac outlet. I understand why you did it, but not right.

Polkitup2

A breaker tie simply locks the two breaker handles together so that when you flip one it also flips the other. They are completely separate 120 circuits and breakers. It is a safety requirement when you have two separate circuits running to a single duplex outlet.

ben62670

Yep.

lightman1

Polkitup2 wrote: »

A breaker tie simply locks the two breaker handles together so that when you flip one it also flips the other. They are completely separate 120 circuits and breakers. It is a safety requirement when you have two separate circuits running to a single duplex outlet.

And a NEC code requirement.

disneyjoe7

Ok guy's thanks for the education I learn something everyday.

lightman1

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Ok guy's thanks for the education I learn something everyday.

Just keep your tongue out of the light sockets, Steve.:D

disneyjoe7

lightman1 wrote: »

Just keep your tongue out of the light sockets, Steve.:D

You don't know but I appreciate that

True story and may explain a lot about me....

When I was 3 ages old I unplugged an window AC unit in my room, pulled out the receptacle and was able to remove the wiring to it. Then I placed my tongue on the 2 hot leads which was a 240vac outlet to "Check for Voltage" I found it. :eek: Sitting on the floor with my legs against the wall the voltage allowed my legs to straighten quickly out flying me across the room to the opposite wall. :rolleyes:

What I learned that DAY it maybe ok to test a 9v battery this way, but anything above that is iffy.

Face

That explains everything!!!

mmadden28

Polkitup2 wrote: »

I installed the Powerport this morning. I had used a breaker tie to tie the breaker for the top and botton outlets together since they are separate circuits. This is required to make sure that both outlets get turned off if you ever are doing work with them. So I stuck my plug in circuit checker in the bottom outlet, turned the breakers off, the circuit checker light went off so I thought I was good to go. I took off the wall plate, grabbed the outlet to pull it out and ZAP! I'm like what the ???? The top outlet was still live. Turns out when I installed the dedicated circuit I had tied the wrong two breakers together. Oops. So the moral of the story is always check that the power is actually off before you begin work. :eek:

Doh! well that is exactly why the NEC requires them both to be turned off at the same time. .

I used a double breaker on my upgrade. I couldn't find any ties in the store and the 'electrical' expert wasn't really much of an expert.
So did you wire with two 12/2's or a 12/3 with a shared neutral?
It's a real PITA getting that jumper cut on the power port huh?

Polkitup2

Wired with 2 12/2s. And yea, breaking the tabs on the Powerport was a PITA. I have had to do it on other outlets before and they were a PITA as well.

disneyjoe7

I've worked in industrial control boxes in the past where it could be marked multiple feeds. That was my thinking about circuit breakers for a dual feed receptacle, its done at the outlet or in the box not at the breaker.


See you really do learn something everyday.

lightman1

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

You don't know but I appreciate that

True story and may explain a lot about me....

When I was 3 ages old I unplugged an window AC unit in my room, pulled out the receptacle and was able to remove the wiring to it. Then I placed my tongue on the 2 hot leads which was a 240vac outlet to "Check for Voltage" I found it. :eek: Sitting on the floor with my legs against the wall the voltage allowed my legs to straighten quickly out flying me across the room to the opposite wall. :rolleyes:

What I learned that DAY it maybe ok to test a 9v battery this way, but anything above that is iffy.

EEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYOOOWWWWWCCCHHHHH!!!!
Nothing like the 240 boogie to get ya goin'!

disneyjoe7

I never forgot it Can see that in my mind TODAY

Polkitup2

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

I would put in, well actually I did put in a 30 amp circuit for my amps, if you ever get a man amp you will be glad you did.

But if cheap and easy is the way need to go its better than nothing.

RT1

After thinking about it for the past 9 or 10 years I decided to take reeltrouble1's (Ted) advice and upgrade my dedicated audio circuit to 10/2 wire from 12/2 wire. I'm waiting for a PS Audio outlet to be delivered to complete the project. I don't expect a big change in performance, but it was a rainy day here so I figured why not just do it and see what happens. I'll report back if I am astounded by the change, otherwise just assume that it makes things sound a little bit better.

F1nut

mmadden28 wrote: »

ben62670 wrote: »

Its legal if he is using a 20 amp breaker with a 20 amp outlet. If he is using a 20 amp outlet with a 30 amp breaker that may not be Kosher.

Do they even make a 30A rated receptacle that standard power cords would work in? If not then I'd venture to guess that he has a custom power cord. That or he has multiple recepticles on the circuit.

No, they don't make one.

RT1 and I read years ago about an audio shop in Hawaii swapping out the 20 amp breaker for a 30 amp. They reported better sound. When I ran a dedicated 10 gauge line here for the big rig I used 30 amp breaker because of that. I can't say the 30 amp breaker made a difference because it was all done together. Is it up to code, no. I have a 20 amp breaker I can swap in if I ever sell the house.