Life is good.......
Comments
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Mhardy NICE link, I love it
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jm1.. non directional meaning, that MOST if not all non horn speakers (and the tweeters in them) as you move left to right you hear it stronger as you pass right in front of the actual driver, HORNS allow the sound to expand into a wider range so its more natural and that sound will expand more and more depending on the horn distance. A horn cabinet will allow the sound to expand before acutually coming out of the speaker where as a regular speaker the cone or driver has no chamber to expand (compression chamber) with the the ROOM your in becomes the expansion chamber HENCE the reason if you go outside you hear the bass and sound louder and with more depth, that is the reason those guys with the BOOM boxes in theyre cars DONT hear that thundering bass YOU hear as the car passes, its because that bass is expanding. I tried to explain this to my wife and I took her IPOD and put the little speaker up to a horn enclosure I had that had no driver and at a volume where you cant hear the ipod as soon as you hold that tiny ipod speaker to the throat of the horn it was audible from across the room.
BY using very efficent speakers you need less volume to achieve sound and thus you get less distortion, also you also pick up sounds you dont hear from conventional speakers because the power needed to drive non horns starts at higher mhz. I have a pair of infitniy rs11bs and they are the same level at setting 6 as the horns are at level 2 on the pre amp.. also the fact is you need BIG speakers if they are horns that is why so many of these newer towers need a powered sub, they just cant quite get that natural bass that a horn enclosure can. you cant make a HORN loaded speaker that is small with out sacrificing real quality tones. I am not sure if there is even a modern sub that can hit 5 mhz like natural horns can, beside it being below humans ability to hear you at least can hear everything.... -
Jm1.. here is another good way I can explain it, At a concert the band on stage uses amps, Marshall etc, that is so they can hear them selves play, (non horn spakers) ever notice that the same 18: speaker that you would find in a music store amp to play bass at a small party is also the same 18" speaker that is in a HUGE horn cabinet ( the ones on each side of a concert?) its the horn making the sound louder and emit a longer wave and because its a horn its also clearer. If the band used a regular store bought 18' speaker amp and played on stage you would hardly hear it.
Another example if you can try it, the OLD victrolas with the HORN that allows the sound to be herd, ( I own one) if you take the HORN off the arm that attaches to the old metal needle you cant hear anything, but when you add the horn that TINY sound wave expands more and more and allows the sound to be herd and with more clarity....thats why cheerleaders uses to use cones to yell theyre cheers and singers in the roaring 20's also used a paper cone. they were simply being a horn cabinet..:) -
Hmmm...my horns beam but my ring radiator tweeters have excellent dispersion.
If you have more bass outside of your room, it's due to nulls inside the listening room."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
Here are some COOL images, a HUGE floor horn and even one for an IPOD... COOL
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Amazing how a tiny 5" driver attached to a HUGE horn can rattle the windows with only 3 watts....
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HENCE the reason if you go outside you hear the bass and sound louder and with more depth,
Not sure where you came up with that one, but it's wrong.that is the reason those guys with the BOOM boxes in theyre cars DONT hear that thundering bass YOU hear as the car passes, its because that bass is expanding.
Have you ever been inside one of those cars? Trust me, they DO hear all the bass.A horn cabinet will allow the sound to expand before acutually coming out of the speaker where as a regular speaker the cone or driver has no chamber to expand (compression chamber) with the the ROOM your in becomes the expansion chamber
In your case, it's more a matter of corner loading your speakers, which is using the room as an expansion chamber.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I know you hear the bass BUT outside you ONLY hear the bass and it deeper, The horn speakers are a let say PRE expansion chamber and ANY speaker in any room, that room becomes a larger speaker chamber no matter what speakers you use, BUT horns make a room out of the actual speaker cabinet so its like having the sound already compressed then expanded while in the listening room... BUT who wants to make the ROOM a chamber and not hear a better sound unless you go out in the freezing snow with the door open to hear that chambers expansion? No matter WHO or WHY anyone thinks conventional speakers are better then HORNS is just a personal taste and an opinion. I have physics on my side.
If you are having a block party and bring out the horns they will out perform and with less power then a regular speaker. the ONLY reason companies promote the all that fancy wood and gold hardware on conventional speakers is they are smaller and better suited for home use and are made to be more like fine furniture, NOT that there is anything wrong with that. Most put a port in those speakers to help bring out the bass but I dont think any can achieve the low frequency like a horn can.
Side by side everyone will say DAMN that horn sound awesome, I hooked up one of my infinity rs11bs and one horn, when turning up the volume slowly you can hear the horn so clear even before the infinity made a PEEP. as you turned it up the horn exploded with great sound and tone while the infintiy struggled looking for more power...I guess the real trick is to keep working to get the best sound from the least amount of power, because the more you do that the better the quality of sound youll get..
Thats a physics fact not personal opinion -
Even the BOSE wave radio HAD TO USE A HORN to achieve that magic sound they promote on there ads. If they used a regular speaker like in a regular radio it would not sound as rich or full. the speaker BEFORE the room its in MUST create expansion before it goes into any room to allow the listener to hear quality with out having to leave the room. here is the guts of the wave radio, also horns were developed by GE physicists and other professors in sound wave studies and experiments, anyone can stuff a speaker in a box and put the name TIFFANY & CO and sell it for $10,000.
but a pair of PHD inspired, physically proven and never beaten horns can cost you little if you create a pair based on PHDs findings. HECK you can even NAME THEN after yourself and put your own name on the grills ( like im doing HE HE HE). Here you can see BOSE like any horn, relies on NOT the front for the sound BUT the wave length behind the speaker as it travels along the path becoming more and more expanded until it reaches its exit out back, NOW if you still say im wrong then I guess BOSE is also? and even some of the most brilliant mind in audio studies and professors and scientist who studied frequency..If horns were not better and BOSE put just two speakers in the wave radio. NO one would buy it because it would sound like that 1980s alarm clock radio.
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what would I expect to pay for similiar amps?? I need to get tubular!!!
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Mike Kozak wrote: »what would I expect to pay for similiar amps?? I need to get tubular!!!
Similar to what? Like a Manley Stingray, or McIntosh MC-60s, or a Bottlehead Paramour...?
Manley Stingray:
http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/stingray99.html -
Did you honestly just use "This is what Bose does so it MUST be good" as an argument for anything related to audio??
I am pretty sure you are wrong about horns in the wave radio.
1) Bose doesn't use horns
2) On page 6 of the owners manual is a cutaway drawing showing a normal speaker.
3) The thing Bose calls a "Wave Guide" is what everyone else calls a port. - It functions off the back wave of the speaker (like a port) not off the front wave (like a horn).
4) It does sound like a 1980's alarm clock - just one you get to pay a premium for. (A business model Bose has stuck by for quite some time now)
Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms) -
MC-60, that is what I want. Thanks
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Agon Bluebook is $1,600 each.Mike Kozak wrote: »MC-60, that is what I want. Thanks"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
Here is some more clarification: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waveguide_(acoustics)1) Bose doesn't use horns
2) On page 6 of the owners manual is a cutaway drawing showing a normal speaker.
3) The thing Bose calls a "Wave Guide" is what everyone else calls a port. - It functions off the back wave of the speaker (like a port) not off the front wave (like a horn).
4) It does sound like a 1980's alarm clock - just one you get to pay a premium for. (A business model Bose has stuck by for quite some time now)"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
ouch, $3200 is a lot of cabbage!
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Mike Kozak wrote: »ouch, $3200 is a lot of cabbage!
$3200 for a pair of pristine, carefully refurbished MC-60s would give you tremendous bang for the buck. That said, I'd probably buy a Marantz 8B if I were spending that kind of $$$.
The MC-225 was also a heck of an amplifier (stereo power amp), as was, and still is, the MC-275. The latter, which AFAIK is still in production, is very reasonably priced for what it is.
I think a Stingray goes for about $2200, and it's a stereo integrated amp.
PPP EL84 topology is the only pinch to my way of thinking... seems a bit inelegant. On the other hand, it's a way to get EL84 PP sound and some more power. If Manley made an EL84PP version of the Stingray, I'd probably own one. -
Used Stingrays go from $1200-1500. Used MC-275's start at $1200 and can easily go to more than double that depending on the model and condition.
Mr. H, what do you mean by PP, something to do with pentodes? Here's a link to the Stingray: http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/stingray99.html"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
Used Stingrays go from $1200-1500. Used MC-275's start at $1200 and can easily go to more than double that depending on the model and condition.
Mr. H, what do you mean by PP, something to do with pentodes? Here's a link to the Stingray: http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/stingray99.html
PP = push-pull (as opposed to single ended).
Single-ended EL84s can sound very nice, too, but power is limited by even my standards (about 4 watts for SE pentode; 2 watts or less for SE triode-mode from a single EL84 per channel). The EICO AF-4 is an example of an "SEP" amp; the Decware Zen SE-84 is an example of a SET (pseudo-triode, really) amp using the EL84 (or near-equivalents). The latter is really underpowered for even very efficient speakers in my experience (I own an SE-84B as well as an AF-4, so to some extent I know whereof I speak).
The Stingray is PPP (push pull parallel); two EL84s in parallel pushin' and two more pullin' per channel. I don't know what EveAnna says is the rated power output of a Stingray per channel. I have a Peavey "Classic 50/50" stereo amp (a PA/sound reinforcment/instrument amp) that uses PPP 7189 tubes (essentially a beefed-up EL84) that claims "50 watts per channel" but it's probably more like 35. Maybe. If you wanted 35 watts per channel, I think a PP EL34 (like a Dynaco ST-70 or the aforementioned Marantz 8B) would be a much more sensible choice. :-)
Of course, you can parallel SE outputs, too, if you wish. If you parallel enough output tubes, you can even do away with the output transformer as an impedance-matching device between the plate of the output tube(s) and the voice coil of the loudspeaker -- but that is another kettle of fish altogether.
sorry... got a little long-winded... :-( -
No need to apologize.mhardy6647 wrote: »The Stingray is PPP (push pull parallel); two EL84s in parallel pushin' and two more pullin' per channel. I don't know what EveAnna says is the rated power output of a Stingray per channel. I have a Peavey "Classic 50/50" stereo amp (a PA/sound reinforcment/instrument amp) that uses PPP 7189 tubes (essentially a beefed-up EL84) that claims "50 watts per channel" but it's probably more like 35. Maybe. If you wanted 35 watts per channel, I think a PP EL34 (like a Dynaco ST-70 or the aforementioned Marantz 8B) would be a much more sensible choice. :-)
It would be interesting to compare the Stingray I have here to my Welborne ST-70(+ stepped attenuator). The only I foresee is that I don't believe the ST-70 is common ground and it would be easiest to compare them on the SDA's in that room."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
I don't know what EveAnna says is the rated power output of a Stingray per channel.
From Manley, "the trusty EL84 output stage can be switched between either around 20 watts of TRIODE or 40 watts of Ultra Linear mode push-pull operation."
Having listened to the Stingray, I can say it sounds stellar.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
FIrst, BOSE does use HORNS on the wave. its not just a port its an actual horn thats why its called the wave, short fo wavelength length meaning HORN.....
That said. Mike Kozak GET THE MC60s..WHY? unlike the higher powerd amps the MC75 mono or MC275 stereo AND unlike the lower amps the MC40 or MC225 or MC240 stereo non of those amps have the 5U4, the MC40, MC224, MC75, MC275, MC240 all have solid state rectifiers BUT THE MC60 does not, it used the 5u4 tubes instead of solid state. This tube use oin place of solid state has mede the MC60 the choice to get when using horns or other kinds of speakers. If you want PERFECT tone have them rewired. My camera is at my store but ill take an image of the insides of before and after the silver was used in the rewiring. When I took them to McIntosh to have everything checked the tech guy said DAMN who wired these, theyre BEAUTYFUL and are puttin out like .0002 THD very very quiet. but they also have been reduced to 10 watts from 60. that was wah the thd is so low and like I said ( to some who still are in denial) the horns only take a few watts to shake the roof....SO Kozak, look for a nice pair of MC60s on line or ?? probably a nice pair will be between $2500 and $3500 depending on condition. BUT with those lovely 5u4s before the output kt88s AND a pair of horns like mine ( again I can give you the plans to make them) your music will glide out of the speakers like feathers in front of a fan. NOT like tiny toothpicks from conventional speakers that seem to PIERCE your ear drums. YOU too ill be listening in the dark constantlly opening your eyes becuause you SWEAR someone is in the room playing the instruments...
McLoki: YES its a HORN, horns are called front loaded and some back loaded, the bose smaller radio is BACK loaded and relies on the back wall to help add wavlength, the larger bose wave is FRONT loaded. here are images of both, the BOSE WAVE horn back loaded and front loaded, Besides a port if just a hole BUT a horn is a hole YES. but in a spacific length and size, the bose wave radios are BOTH HORN loaded
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some images didn get thru because they have already been posted, THe bose back loaded can be viewed above in an earlier post, this first image is the larger FRONT LOADED bose horn wave.. Notice on the first image above, the bose has the blue wave path coing out of the unit. BUT also notice that there is a driver INSIDE the middle near the bottom, this is a driver to create the wave thru the horn chambers NOT PORTS, its horns because the chamber expands more and more thus is considered a horn. bose also made a short horn coming out the back of the same center speaker to a shorter length port, If you want to go NUTS there is a method called the HOME WRECKER, you take (2) 18" speakers and place them face to face and bolt them together with a piece of wood between them then put them in a large cabinet so there are two chambers each with the back of the woofer facing in and the two woofer faces bolted to the center wood, this will create a NO movement chamber, what that means is the air in the speakers because its FLAT against the wood will give little or no movement because there is not enough air to push the speaker BUT the frequency coming off the BACK in the cabinet and out the port!!!!!! holy moly. your teeth will fall out and your car alarm will go off, make sure you out a hole about 5" diamater on each end....
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what marantz cdp id that?
do you like it?ELECTRONICS
arcam cd93
linn wakonda
MC2 MC450
Teac ud h01 DAC
SPEAKERS
Tannoy DC6 t se . -
what marantz cdp id that?
do you like it?
It's a SA-8003.
I have a 8001 here which I enjoy, but it's a little on the warm side for the rest of my gear."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
here is some more clarification: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/waveguide_(acoustics)
lol....Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I just got the SA8003 and its really a great addition as I never did spend a lot on a cd player for reasons I am not aware of. I spent a fortune on silver cables etc etc and the CD player I was using was a sony that cost like $5 from a garage sale. the SA8003 (I have dark side and aerosmith on SACD) there are two issues. 1) because my system is biamped and its set up the way it is, I was able to get a better sound from even the crappy CD player, so im seeing only a slight difference in the SACDs vs the regular CDs probably due to the remix.. also there is a USB connector to hook up your ipod BUT I tried 3 ipods and I keep getting the message on the SA8003 window saying errAUTHINTIC.. I called marantz 5 times and they said the unit is not accepting the signal and there is no trouble shooting with that err message, MARANTZ said they would pull one off the shelf in the service department at the HQ and try and hook up the USB to an ipod there with a call back promise. I have yet to have a call back and I even called them again only to get the "hes on another call can he call you back" again with no call back.. I think they went and hooked up an ipod and said UH OH we have a problem and are working on it. Ill call again monday to see if hes off the phone yet....
I am not exactly one to use ipods, my wifes has like 2000 songs and my neighbors has like 2000 and mine has only 6 that I bought and paid for from itunes. the err message has nothing to do with weather the music is legal or not, its a signal issue. THEY suggest you TURN OFF the EQ on the ipod and I did that on all 3 ipod and no change....
The ipod connection was if my wife wants to use it and if I ever decide to use my 6 song ipod which im not really into ipods. besides on my system I pick up the digital errors on the music and on horns and tubes you get poor sound due to the itunes transfer rate which was probably set to fast, good for her and her head phones but not for tubes and horns. BUT we have a party every so often and some would hook there ipods to my ipod dock (the rca unit) so if anyting ill just stick to that BUT I was told the USB on the sa8003 also makes the music sound better as it also does a regular cd as per MARANTZ.. $1000? eh I probably would have not bought it BUT it is my first nice CD player so at least its not crap -
The manley stigray is cool looking I almost got one from ebay awhile ago. It reminds me of the cleaning lady we had who went to dust my amps and instead of a swiffer, they decided to take the smaller tubes out not knowing they were different and then put them back in the wrong sockets..I like mono blocks even though some are dual mono blocks I still like the MC60s with the 5u4s instead of transistor. Well anyone who wants a $5 sony cd, its in the garbage.. and anyone who gets the SACD player, bring your ipod to the store and plug it in to see if that issue is resolved, IM SURE ill be sending my unit to the factory again having to wait to use it and NOW with no $5 cd player ill have to stick to records for now.. I just bought 2 Gerrard zero 100s at a garage sale yesterday SAT for $20 they both didnt work, BUT one had a SURE V15 series 3 and the other had an ortofon high grade cartridge and needle I think similar to the v15..EH well sew what Mrantz says monday...If there is an issue I guess I could have just bought the previous model, I also DONT like the curved face of the 8003 I would have preferred the flat face unit or if they made the 8003 similar.
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FACE. not sure if I mentioned but IF YOUR buying a Mcintosh like the MC275... make SURE its not the unit that uses the green circuit board. I think there anniversary model ( with the gold hardware) is the first to do it. stick to the point to point with the ceramic tube sockets. IF something goes wrong you can replace a wire BUT if the newer unit takes a hit I think you have to replace the whole circuit board...
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mHardy6647: Thought youde get a kick out of this. I found it on the side of the road during clean up week, I dusted it off, tried to clean it as best as I can BUT I didnt even attempt to plug it in and It sold on line auction for $840.00 as is...I would have kept it but I like my amps in mint shape. BUT anyone looking DONT let the condition fool you, Proper wires and good tubes and the rust or pitting has no effect, Besides you can take them apart and have then recrhomed and repainted if you want.
