Bandpass Box..
Systems Posts: 14,873
I was wondering if my two polk 12' gnx's would fit in a Q-Logic Dual 12-in Sub bandpass box (type 4). Also would it sound much better than my regular dual 12-in sub enclosure? It would help alot if you could tell me because im kinda a newbie. thanks
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Post edited by Unknown User on
1) is the current box custom built or pre-fab?
2) volume of the current enclosure vs. volume of prospect enclosure.
3) what are you unhappy about with your current situation/box?
4) what kind of amp(s) are you using..and do you have a subsonic filter?
5) is the current box sealed, ported, vented.. a KFC bucket?
with out knowing these things...I can just speculate on wich would be better. But here are my preliminary thoughts:
1) q logic boxes suck
2) bandpass boxes suck (sorry polk)
3) pre--fab boxes usualy suck
4) if your origional box is custom built..stay with that
anyway... I'm sure DODGE will be on here any min.....
so hang in there
Thomas "the OHM" madman Alexander:eek: :eek: :eek:
my box is custom to fit under my back seat and its built solid
as for bandpass
for the most part...only the people who try to sell them to you...dont know a lot about car audio....or just do it for the looks like bandpass
everyone else doesnt it
ive seen some awesome bandpass enclosures with engravings in the fiberglass and lights and all that
but like i said...for the most part theyre just for show and to bump up the price
-Cody
Bandpass works very well for it's intended purpose and is the most efficient enclosure that you can construct...for it's given frequency range. Iso-baric boxes and slot-loaded boxes are variations of a basic bandpass design. The Iso-baric and slot-loaded boxes have a wider frequency range than a band-pass and of course the order of which the construction is has alot to do with it.
But bandpass boxes will work very well in a frequency range that they are designed for. Most bandpass boxes will not reach lower than 30 hz and no higher than 80 hz at the most. This is mostly due to the box design. The speakers are basically enclosed completely so they will muffle the extreme edges of thier performance by playing into a closed box. The volume and sound of a bandpass emminate purely from the ports which are vital to the design of the box. Port length and shape have a large impact on the sound coming from a bandpass box.
But if you are going for SPL and not any kind of accuracy or frequency range, a pair of large drivers in a bandpass neclosure built to suit will out boom many other box designs. Especially with a good healthy dose of power behind them.
As far as what a bandpass enclosure is, it's basically a physical frequecy filter. While you will have to have an electronic filter in the way of a capacitor system or an active pc-board crossover, the subwoofer box can be used to limit frequency response and reinforce the physical attributes of the speaker. But, passing a signal through a high-pass and a low-pass filter to limit your frequency range to a certain mid-range would be a band-pass crossover. Good for systems using a tweeter, mid-range and woofer or tweeter, woofer and sub-woofer. It limits the frequencies being reproduced by the speaker system. A band-pass sub box will do the same thing but limits the frequency response by limiting the physical performance of the sub when acting within the enclosure.
So band-pass isn't the **** child of the audio world that people make it out to be. It provides excellent reinforcement down low for musical tracks and even a few movie thetaers will use them to give you that seat shaking bass power for a fairly economical price. They have a purpose, they are specifically designed and not easy to get right eaither which is why they cost so much. They do do thier thing very well and if you want to go for a competition for LOUD on a low budget, they are teh bst bang for the buck, if done right.
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
when the cat's away, the mice jump off a bridge and die on the rocky cliff below.
BP01669, dude, listen to Thomas (trapped under ice), his points about "what to think of before swapping boxes" really do make complete sense.
But, since we're talking... bandpass sucks... so does Q logic and every other prefabbed particle board, staple joint, liquid nails box i've ever seen / heard. There's no substitute for silicone, gaskets, and drywall screws, not to mention a solid substrate to work with.
"Bandpass works very well for it's intended purpose " -- if it's intended purpose is to take absolute garbage woofers and make them sound "boomy" so that the kids down the block will hear your trunk, muffler, and broken rear window rattling a block and a half away, then yes, maybe it does serve it's purpose.... it's a glorified noise maker... but you know you can spend a lot less money on an air horn... since hockey is leaving buffalo -- you can get the one from HSBC arena for real cheap -- sabres dont need it anymore.
"But bandpass boxes will work very well in a frequency range that they are designed for. Most bandpass boxes will not reach lower than 30 hz and no higher than 80 hz at the most. This is mostly due to the box design. " -- you're right... but you're not going into enough detail... it's not like the cut off sharp at 80 and then cut off at 30 sharply as well.. heck, they might be good if that was the case... instead they "taper" -- at 80 they start to come in and gradually work up to 'full volume' at around 50 hertz and then they taper back down, fading to 30 or 20, and then out... so you get this boomy, peaky, uneven, and very anti-musical response.
"But if you are going for SPL and not any kind of accuracy or frequency range, a pair of large drivers in a bandpass neclosure built to suit will out boom many other box designs" -- agreed... i think that a good vented box will do the same if not better, but I'll grant you that it can get "as loud" as a ported box (certainly louder than a sealed) in most vehicles. just dont forget that "not going for any kind of accuracy" thing ... at least a ported box will be loud as hell (as loud as BP) but if the propersubwoofer is used it will retain a respectable amount of sound quality -- enough that the system is "listen-able" to.
"So band-pass isn't the **** child of the audio world that people make it out to be. " -- yes it is... lol.
"It provides excellent reinforcement down low for musical tracks and even a few movie thetaers will use them to give you that seat shaking bass power for a fairly economical price. " - you're comparing apples and oranges. in a movie theatre / home theatre / joe blow's dorm room, the environment is very rigid, very static, very "easy to deal with"... you haven't got to overcome road noise, you haven't got to have direct quality sound control like you do in a car.. in a building you can just pump enough power to the right speakers with teh right sound processing device and it'll sound great... this is not to detract from teh science of interior audio, but car audio has always and will forever be a "pain in the a$$" for designers and installers. things dont sound "right" when they're bouncing off metal... things dont sound right when you've got your windows open, wind coming in, and an uncertain "outer box" -- put a bandpass box in a pickup and roll the windows down -- good frickin luck... you'll be listening to 130 - 10,000 hertz all day.
"They have a purpose, they are specifically designed and not easy to get right eaither which is why they cost so much. " -- that may be part of the problem -- i've never seen a well built one ... the closest i got was looking at the specs for Decware's "Deathbox" psuedo bandpass box. Everybody else just has these 75 dollar Visonik, Jensen, and Roadgear bandpasses rollin down the road. not many ppl of note / name / rep is making any BP designed setups ... question is -- is this because they're just hard to do and get right, or because they'll sound like terd anyway? i dont have a clue. when i finally hear a good bandpass, i'll take it underconsideration for TRUNK USE ONLY.
"they are teh bst bang for the buck, if done right." -- think about it -- they really aren't... the cheap BP designs are made poorly with cheap woofers... they sound like crap -- for that same money, you can get a single 12 with a good amp in a sealed box -- now that's easy for a newbie, not complicated, premade, and it'd be solid. you pay 170 bucks for a badnpass box -- q logic cheapo one -- and then you say get the two for one polk GXR subs (dont even get me started on those things) -- that is the CHEAPEST you can do BP -- and that'd be like 270 bucks on the two for one deal. hell I can get an mtx 6000 12 and a sealed box for it for 200! -- I can get two alpine type R 10's and a sealed box for them for 350... two polk GNX 10's and a sealed box for 300... if you shop around and get the "two for one" deal on subs you can actually get it cheaper than that -- CC / best buy run 2 for 1 jobs all the time... a dual 10 setup sealed off proper power will not only hit well, but it'll sound GOOD -- far better than a BP.
I've always thought, and I'll stick by this, bandpass is what people suggest when a woofer sounds like crap and they have to mask it's performance... i used to throw that in the face of circuit city guys -- then the polk guys started endorsing bandpass, and that's when i decided to give up fighting a couple of battles.
You said yourself, you have not heard one that sound good yet because "bandpass is what people suggest when a woofer sounds like crap and they have to mask it's performance". Maybe that right there is your problem? You haven't heard a decent bandpass box because you are listening to what companies like Jensen and Pyle are throwing out there.
Another problem you have is that you are assigning a bandpass enclosure the duties of what would be expected of another type of enclosure altogether. Yet you freely admit that a bandpass will do what it is designed to do and that is make noise and lots of it.
For you, a bandpass enclosure may not be "it". That's fine but that doesn't mean that they are useless. I have seen bandpass boxes with 2-4 drivers win competitions for SPL but los pathetically for other areas. Like I said, they are designed to make alot of noise, very loudly and they do it very well, even if it is over a limited frequency range.
The very best sounding bandpass box I heard incorporated 2 drivers. The two drivers used the same ported enclosure but only one fired into the ported enclosure, the other fired into open air. there were two chambers, one large ported one to share for the two drivers and the other was sealed for the other half of the bandpass enclosure. The box was accurate and very loud. It had a bit of boomyness in the mid-range of what a sub box should be producing but it sounded just fine. The subs were Pioneer IMPP 10 inch subs. I imagine the whole thing cost the guy about 300 to build including the building material, carpeting and such.
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
but one thing i dont understand...
"instead they "taper" -- at 80 they start to come
in and gradually work up to 'full volume' at around 50 hertz and then they taper back down, fading to 30 or 20, and then out... so you get this boomy, peaky, uneven, and very anti-musical response."
can you repeat that in another way or am i just reading it wrong and cant understand it..?
-Cody
was that the good impps
or the best buy ones?
-Cody
the staging can be way off
a guy i know got a bandpass and there was a noticeable gap b/t the mids and the woofers
sounded awful
3 weeks later he went to a sealed and sold the bandpass
-Cody
Considering I built the bandpass box I spoke of, they were good Pioneer subs. I got them from a local dealer who closed up shop a few years ago. They ran my friend about 180 a piece. He was also running a HiFonics amp at 2 ohms on it pushing about 250 watts RMS.
And I will say this again, bandpass boxes are good for what they are intended for. That intention is to make noise and ANYONE will tell you that if you want quality bass and not quantity bass then go with something else. So if I am saying the same thing that everyone else is, why is everyone arguing with me?
I never said that bandpass boxes were where it's at. I said you are giving them a bum rap all because you are all trying to compare them to something that does something the bandpass boxes were never intended to do. Apples to oranges.
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
the old impp's with teh grey cone / red"pioneer-impp" writing on the dustcap were pretty good too... u could beat on them all day.
as far as the tapering goes cody -- here.. its easier to illustrate.. the below graphs's (roughly - i know, its not great illutration) show basically teh "flat" response of a sealed box versus the "boomy" response of a bandpass. a good ported box will be slightly more curved than the sealed, but not even half as curved as the bandpass.
hope that helps.
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
-Cody
ideally you'd have a perfectly "flat" response... all the way across you're whole frequency range (or at least the range you intend to play on your subwoofer... like 20 to 80 or 20 to 120 or whatever)...
sealed comes the closest to this ideal, being only mildly curved... a ported box would give a bit more curvature, but like i said, no where near as much as a BP...
that curvature is what makes a BP box "boomy" -- it has more response at certain frequencies... MUCH more response... so like you're playing your song and you hear a whole shitload of 50 hertz but because the response is really high at 50 and kind of low at 20 and at 80 you end up getting "gaps" -- like that gap your friend noticed with his BP.
everywhere that graph starts to curve down you have hte potential for a gap... the deeper the curvature, the deeper the gap.
I've been in CAR audio a long time..and yes... BAndpass is the basterd child of audio... I have yet..in my 20yrs in car audio..heard a good bandpass... and ive heard very many..done by "so called pros'..... most folks just go out and get a crapy bandpass ...and let thier bad subs sound even worse. ... the question from the origional poster....none of you even hit what he needed....instead spouted out about defending your "**** child" boxes...
If ya'll wanna play with them.. go ahead...but when recomending ideal encolures...they are not among them.
peace out:supermad:
You all might want to go back and actually read my posts instead of going all cro-magnon on me?
I never said that a bandpass box was an ideal sub box design. I never said it was meant for quality sound reproduction. I did say it was meant to make noise, loudly. I did say that it does that well. If you want to win a dB drag competition, a bandpass sub box is a good way to go for cheap and loud. Anything else, it's not your answer. But all you morons can seem to do is see what you want to see and read only what supports your agruments.
It seems to me that his question was answered in pretty good depth. He asked if they would fit. The dimensions of a bandpass enclosure will accept any subwoofer on the market within the enclosure's given speaker diameter. That is basicallt a no-brainer. The size question that he never asked and nobody else even bothered to mention was would the damn thing actually fit in the car? Then he asked how they would sound. This is impossible to answer because we do not have his car in front of us or his speakers or his amplifier or his enclosure. What then followed was a sound bashing of the guy's enclosure and idea because some seriously pig-headed people can't get past thier own myopic view of things.
I'm going to say it again. Make sure you read it this time.
BANDPASS BOXES ARE GOOD FOR MAKING LOTS OF NOISE LOUDLY. THEY SHOULD NOT BE YOUR CHOICE IF YOU HAVE ANY OTHER INTENTION FOR YOUR STEREO.
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
number 1. whos bashing who with your little no brainer comment
number 2. so what youre saying is, get a bandpass if you want to do something most, if not all people, DONT intend to do when they buy a stereo, which is playing noise instead of music..correct?
-Cody
Damn straight I'm bashing. I'm bashing attitudes. They suck.
No, you're wrong. I'm telling you that a bandpass box will make noise and SOME people do build a stereo to make noise for the exact purpose of something like a dB Drag event. Take a look at the IASCA website and read up on the rules for a dB Drag event (IdBL Competition). They don't measure anything but SPL (Sound Pressue Level -- a.k.a.: volume)which is registered in decibels (dB) and one of the cheapest ways to get into that is by building a bandpass box with even cheap speakers and a good source signal. A bandpass will out-boom any other box out there but it only does it in a limited frequency range. That is how bandpass boxes are designed. That is thier intent, loud, hard low-end reinforcement. They are not for a sound quality application and everyone here so far has been comparing them to that. It's apples to oranges and I get slammed by arrogant **** for saying differently.
I don't have a bandpass box, I have never owned a bandpass box. I have built them before for other people. I know what thier application is and everyone I have built a bandpass box for has only wanted to be heard. If they wanted quality, they would not have bought a Jensen amp and Pyle drivers on sale at SEARS.
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
unless i missed something
the only thing people have said bad things about is bp boxes
if i wouldve known you were going to cry about a damn speaker box and called people arrogrant **** for expressing their opinion i wouldve been much more sensitive to your feelings
and for that...im sorry
well
as sorry as i wouldve been if i bought a bp
so yes im being very sincere
-Cody
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hey dude -- the 4250 D will do 300 - 325 x 1 at 2 ohms -- so its perfect for your GNX's -- that'll be like 150 - 160 per sub -- they call for 175 so you're golden. good choice on that combo.
as far as which will sound better -- i think we all just covered that....lol.... the sealed box will -- or... if you have a quality professional build you a good Vented (style of ported) box they may be a little louder but still retain like 85% of their quality of sound. this would be a good "compromise" between the "mindless noisy boom" of bandpass and the "pristine sound quality but lesser volume" of a sealed box.
Now -- on to Jstas...
--- you're god d@mn right. And I've never seen thomas pissed off, figures it'd take something like bandpass to get him going. You may be the death of him, his heart medication can't compensate for such extreme stupidity as bandpass-support.
"If you want to win a dB drag competition, a bandpass sub box is a good way to go for cheap and loud. "
--- you're logic is flawed. Nobody wins competitions by being cheap and cutting corners. If you want to win win win, then you need to spend spend spend. The better quality subwoofers which are engineered solely for SPL output/competition are virutally always reccomended for a vented enclosure, as that allows for the best function of the driver with consideration for its resonant frequency and other important parameters (again, for pressure output, not quality of sound). Slap a couple of DD 9515's, Beyond Audio Inhumans, OZ Audio, Resonant Engineering, or hell, even an IDmax in a bandpass box... you'll look like an absolute idiot. ...hell if you're gonna do that you might as well just have bought a JL w7.
"But all you morons can seem to do is see what you want to see and read only what supports your agruments. "
--- I see all, for I am the Majii of Tiki.
"What then followed was a sound bashing of the guy's enclosure and idea."
--- No -- the guy never bought a bandpass yet, he's got a dual sealed enclosure, which we actually complimented and told him to keep. Instead, we decided to bash your favorite elcosure, the BP. I think you're projecting your character onto someone else so as to win comradarie in this discussion. Remember, imaginary friends aren't really there... but if they were, my imaginary friend could beat up your imaginary friend.
"Damn straight I'm bashing. I'm bashing attitudes. They suck."
--- do they suck as badly as bandpass boxes?
"They don't measure anything but SPL (Sound Pressue Level -- a.k.a.: volume)which is registered in decibels (dB) and one of the cheapest ways to get into that is by building a bandpass box with even cheap speakers and a good source signal. "
--- you know a well endowed midget can get into a three-legged race, but that doesn't mean he's going to win.
"A bandpass will out-boom any other box out there but it only does it in a limited frequency range."
--- No it won't, it depends on the woofer. A woofer with (and I'm not knocking the momo, it has its purpose, but for the sake of this discussion, bear with me...) a semi-weak suspension that needs to rely upon the air space of the enclosure to "bring it back to center" or control its excursion and will thus do COMPLETELY HORRIBLE in a ported / vented box will give you its highest SPL level in a Bandpass box. However, a woofer designed for SPL applications will give the highest "boom" and greatest output in a Vented enclosure. And the output of such a woofer in a vented enclosure will basically put the "limited suspension" woofer in the bandpass box to utter shame. I think you've been using those Jensen amps and Pyle woofers for so long you forgot that a good SPL woofer exists.
"I don't have a bandpass box, I have never owned a bandpass box."
-- The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem... now come on polk forum posters... lets rally behind him. Jstas: 'Hi, I'm Jstas' Group: 'Hi Jstas!' Jstas: "... and... and... and I own a bandpass box from Q logic...' *Jstas falls into a bawling heap back into his seat*.
Now I hope you can better search the deep inner workings of your 'self-being' and someday grow further, beyond that which exemplifies circuit city... little kids with dual voice coil Profile-Baja two for one subs in bandpass boxes and 4 channel Profile-California amps powering them. I know you're their hero... but they'll find a new hero. They'll be ok. I promise.
Now go out, into the desert, and discover all that is good. (Might I suggest Arizona... maybe you'll stumble upon the Mitek factory and Sean Bradly can tutor you on silly things like 'why i shouldn't have made a hexagonal shaped subwoofer'.)
When you've reached true Nirvanna, and the demon's mark is gone (that big JL logo on your backside, you know the one i'm talking about), do comeback to us, for we will miss your glow, your light, and inner aura of splendor...
We love you... always.
I will avenge yee, fallen warrior.
*running off to battle with a JL w7 as a handshield... wow, they're good for something.*
Wow, you really have no clue what you are talking about, do you?
You might want to clean the sand out of your diaper. Maybe you won't be such a whiney little ****. Hey! You might find your clue in there too!
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
i turn the other cheak and forgive your crass stupidity.
but i'll tell ya, you've got a mouth on you.
your mommy needs to bust out the soap and water and clean that mess out. i wonder why it got so filthy -- what's all that... oh... eww... man you really are a sicko...
You are the last person to be pontificating on intelligence. You have exhibited teh least amount of anyone here. All you have done is regurgitate rhetoric that someone has programmed into your head and spew specifications that any regular joe with an internet connection can find out just as easily. You offer your own, misguided opinion that is totally devoid of civility in most cases and shove it down peoples throat as gospel. You never answer questions with anything more than a sales pitch. You must own stock in some of these companies to push so hard for them. Especially since you ignore all technical facts about a product or idea that is opposite from what you hold to be your personal messiah, no matter how misguided it is.
Lastly, ANYONE who has a differeing view is pounded into the ground by your relentless taunting and belittling of not only the equipment but the very idea that someone has even thought of using such equipment for anything other than what you would use it for. You never take anything about the person who is asking for help into consideration. Is the word budget even in your vocabulary?
Who am I trying to kiss up to to get on my side? Please, tell me, so that I can know this information also. I have no idea where you are getting that from. I have no clue why you need to turn things into "camp wars" with every little disagreement.
I wonder how many more people you are going to snow before they start waking up and seeing you for the no-talent ****-clown that you are.
So take your pseudo-intelligence and cram it. I don't care if I have a "dirty mouth". If words hurt you that much then you really have some issues. If I hurt your feelings, TFB, I couldn't care less about your feelings. Like I said before, clean out your diaper.
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
think about what u just said --- u started this whole whiney brigade of crap --- hell i listen to you talk and i feel like i'm watchin an episode of Dr. Phil on the oxygen / liftime network. do you have PMS for christ sake?
far as --- "I wonder how many more people you are going to snow before they start waking up and seeing you for the no-talent ****-clown that you are. "
--- far as i can tell... you're the only person i've ragged on in here. there are support groups for people like you.
i rag on equipment.. i praise equipment.. sometimes its from what i've seen in cars / demo show rooms / my own personal experience.... othertimes its from what i've seen on paper (which admittedtly sometimes is worthless).
either way... i dont beat people into submission... that'd be plain stupid.... i do "beat" on some points like the whole "polk dx versus polk gnx" thing that's taken up a few posts... but that's because i can prove on paper and personal experience that there is a gap between those two woofers. i over-exaggerated the "less good"-ness of the gnx in doing so a bit probably. but if you're going to throw me through the moral ringer for that one then you really are standing on quicksand.
"You never answer questions with anything more than a sales pitch. "
--- really? I've ragged on just about every car audio compny on the face of the earth, even you have convicted me of that, yet i'm pitching a sale? wow.. i must be the worst salesman ever.
"You offer your own, misguided opinion that is totally devoid of civility in most cases and shove it down peoples throat as gospel."
-- i may lack civility, but i really dont wanna know what's going down your throat. (notice how i showed absolutely no civility with that remark there... hey i just guess you're right there, huh?)
"You must own stock in some of these companies to push so hard for them. Especially since you ignore all technical facts about a product or idea that is opposite from what you hold to be your personal messiah, no matter how misguided it is."
--- sounds to me like you're still pissed off about all the "JL audio" stuff... here's some news... tkae a poll... 3/4 of the people who are attracted to the polk product dislike the JL product for simple fact that it pretty much lacks all the key qualities that make the polk sq products what they are -- sound quality / power handling / duability... etc etc etc. I own stock in nothing... I'm sponsored by my own pocketbook.
"Lastly, ANYONE who has a differeing view is pounded into the ground by your relentless taunting and belittling of not only the equipment but the very idea that someone has even thought of using such equipment for anything other than what you would use it for. "
--- only you cuz you're such a schmuck... and sometimes the polk guys but i actually debate them on product specs/performance etc etc... never on a personal level...the polk guys are actually pretty nice people, like 99% of the people in these forums...
Well im gonna go take my pseudo intelligence and have lunch... then i'm gonna see if we can build a time machine, warp back, and stop your mother from mating with that german shephard and then you'll never have been put upon this planet.
There is no sense in arguing with you if you are going to continually ignore the truth and twist reality to your own agenda.
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
were you dropped on your head as a kid?
ever eaten paint chips?
does your dad beat you?
like dodge said they have help for that stuff now
bp01669,
stick with your sealed box man
youll be glad you did
and do you think were bashing you or your ideas?
no really tell us so well know to prove jstas is really full of it
-Cody
Um, did you read the subject of this thread? I'll read it for you since you have you head so far up PBD's butt, maybe you can't see it. It says: Bandpass Box..
What have you and your bestest buddy in the whole wide world done this entire thread? Bash bandpass boxes. I'd say that was a good crack at the original intent of this thread and neither of you even answered his questions directly. It took about 20 more posts of arguing with me about a topic that we AGREE on for you two to even come close to giving him the info he was looking for without it being laden with your own personal twisted views and product placements.
No wonder barely anybody posts in these forums. With pig-headed blowhards like yourselves, strong arming everything else out of the way, how is anyone supposed to LEARN anything? It's like those Bugs Bunny cartoons with the big dog walking around acting all tough and the yapping little dog jumping around agreeing to everything the big dog says and does.
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!