DOW takes another huge smackdown

Systems

Demiurge wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Better run along and get a new screen name again.

Nah, I love this place again:)

sucks2beme

I'm no guru. But I can spot a stupid trend. The classic rules for lending
were ignored. A lot of markets were fueled by speculation(California and Florida, etc.)
and the lenders were giving out loans to people that shouldn't
of had loans. The wife was a realtor until this year. The number of people
buying with no cash down was amazing. Then taking out another loan to put
in a pool. Add a Hummer and a Lexus in the driveway, you've got trouble.
What ever happened to common sense? And these are guys making no more
than I do. WTF? Only idiots would extend credit that far. And look, like magic
idiots were provided. Time must be on a loop. We've been living the roaring
20's, except this time booze is legal.

jdwmap

I still believe a lot of this is the stupidity of banks. Lets use a number that is based the amount length and type of debt to determine if someone can afford something because thats easy. Credit scores are stupid, mine is actually dropping because I don't have a credit card or make payments on a car, however I have never been late on any payment and make about twice as much as I spend. Lets not do it the long drawn out way of how much do you make, how much do you pay out, ok, whats left is how much you can afford to make a payment on.

In response to the earlier post about being 22 and not needing to invest in retirement, foolish. If I had started putting 10% in my retirement at 22, i wouldn't be working another day after about 45. A down market is a great time to start investing, and keep doing it for the long run, you would be amazed at what someone who makes a mere 30k a year can end up with after 25-30 years of investing.

NotaSuv

Maybe instead of destroying and rebuilding countries in the Middle East we could take care of our own country.........they knew they couldnt let AIG go under and they should have bailed out AIG on Friday and not waited until Monday causing the Nation to take another huge hit financially...........gotta like the BOA thinking now.keep growing until we're too big to let fail.......;) yes the market is getting very ripe for the savvy investors to begin scooping up the fantastic bargins out there now...the market will come back..always has and always will.....

SKsolutions

Demiurge wrote: »

What is "it?" They economy? If so, that's simply 100% false.

You seem to be basing the entire health of the economy on the correction in the housing market and people who invested in poorly managed companies.

Please show me where I reference the housing market, or mortgages, or investments, or companies. The only reference I even made to the economy, I said "Even the economy" doesn't matter.

You are attempting to talk about an "apple".
I'm talking about the "orchard".

Pointless.

I'll say it again. I don't think it's the meltdown, but there are hard times and a price to be paid for this. If there is no outrage or action, that price will be extremely high. If you don't know why you should be outraged, listen to an elder that is.

4406bbl

Do yourself a favor and buy good american companies now,for all the problems this is when the money is made. AIG will make the taxpayers money in the end,12% interest Canada,swiss,eurozone,and the japanese are buying dollars and paying 10% interest on overnight loans,dollar is king.

dorokusai

When I think about investment advice....I think Club Polk.

SKsolutions

When I think moderation. . . .I think Doro.

mrbigbluelight

4406bbl wrote: »

Do yourself a favor and buy good american companies now,for all the problems this is when the money is made. AIG will make the taxpayers money in the end,12% interest Canada,swiss,eurozone,and the japanese are buying dollars and paying 10% interest on overnight loans,dollar is king.

The Japanese are buying dollars to help shore up the dollar; it goes down, the House of Cards tumbles.

I don't know jack squat about this stuff, so I'm fully qualified to ask dumb questions:

Are the Chinese buying up dollars, too, as they have in the past ? Or are they laying low; if so why ?

The ONLY thing that makes the dollar have value is the confidence that people have in it, isn't it ?
Why they have confidence in it, and whether that confidence is justified, can be argued: "It's backed by the word of the US Government", "It's a pretty green color that matches my shrubs", or whatever.
If people believe the dollar to have worth, it'll have worth.

And, although this might be viewed as somewhat of a snide comment, it isn't meant to be: If we can export blue collar jobs overseas (specifically to Asia and and the Pacific Rim) why don't we consider exporting management of the white collar, banking/financial institution jobs overseas ?
The Chinese seem to be doing quite nicely ? Would they have managed AIG better ?

fatchowmein

I'm waiting to see people go to jail or fired instead of walking away with a $20,000,000 golden parachute while I'm left with the bill. At least give me a dog and pony show called a congressional hearing. Congress gave one for steroid use in baseball of which I absolutely don't care about but where's the hearing for sticking me for Bear Stearns, FNM, FRE, and AIG to the tune of billion$?? Where's my ROI?

Oh, that's right. I'm supposed to be watching the presidential race dog and pony show.

I'll get off my soapbox and return to scraping gold off my motherboard and banana plugs to pay for my imported rice.

m00npie

fatchowmein wrote: »

At least give me a dog and pony show called a congressional hearing. Congress gave one for steroid use in baseball of which I absolutely don't care about but where's the hearing for sticking me for Bear Stearns, FNM, FRE, and AIG to the tune of billion$?? Where's my ROI?

No Dog & Pony show to be had. The senate intends to take their normal leave. The speaker of the house claims zero responsibility for this mess which includes doing nothing about it.

Demiurge

SKsolutions wrote: »

I'll say it again. I don't think it's the meltdown, but there are hard times and a price to be paid for this. If there is no outrage or action, that price will be extremely high. If you don't know why you should be outraged, listen to an elder that is.

You're far too reactionary (as are most).

If a move is legal that does not mean it is a good business decision. This seems to be often lost in todays business world, especially on the financial front.

Government regulation will always be reactionary. The reaction to implementing one set of regulations causes the need for another set of regulations. So called "de-regulation" is still regulation, and it does not force anyone to make poor business choices. Regulations have their place, but they can't account for bad business moves.

It would be undesirable to set up such a tight reglatory system that would not allow entities that make bad choices to fail. That would negate many of the natural positives of capitalism. Where there is investment profit there is risk. The risk of failure is integral to the success of the process. The assumption of risk is the means which captialism burdens those reaping the greatest profits.

I place a large chunk of the blame for this mess on the financiers that were making the bad decisions, and for our regulatory system in general. Regulations that give a false sense of security, and encourage bad practices taken to try to gain an advantage.

These big entities could not have become so large and powerful in a purely capitalist system. The fact they are failing is a sign that capitalism works and government regulations do not.

We are expanding our socialization of risk. Only a matter of time before the next logical step, increased socialization of profit. Which will lead us back to more socialization of risk. Around and around we go, but everyone knows where this stops.

America is no longer a capitalist country.

You want to throw in higher taxes into this mess and you'll understand the definition of a meltdown.

Keep in mind all the people who don't want to hear this stuff because someone like myself isn't a "financial expert" -- it's the "financial experts" that caused this all to happen.

I'm pretty well read and I have a consistent philosophy. There's no need for your last line there trying to patronize and malign me because you're uncomfortable with your own opinions.

SKsolutions

Demiurge wrote: »

You're far too reactionary (as are most).

I'm pretty well read and I have a consistent philosophy. There's no need for your last line there trying to patronize and malign me because you're uncomfortable with your own opinions.

Demi,

If you check, my last post was 1am yesterday, long before the announcement today, so it could be argued that I'm extraordinarily well informed. . . or psychic. I also must be hyper-reactionary, because I somehow got my post there before there was anything to even react to.

It seems we don't speak the same language, so I won't correct your errors above, that is what they are, errors. They are not opinions. An opinion is reserved for a situation where there is no right or wrong. When there are facts, there are no opinions. I encourage you seek out some facts. There are many sources, this is the internet, anyone can find what they want. It's an interesting topic and it can't hurt to learn.

I did agree with one statement you made.. . . . maybe because it was the shortest one, and you didn't have enough time to muck it up.:D ________That was a joke.

I know you usually get the last word, so you are welcome to it, peace.

6'&glassy

We had the "Greenspan put" to save the markets. Now we have the "taxpayer put" to save Wall Street. Outrageously historic events this week.

Demiurge

SKsolutions wrote: »

Demi,

If you check, my last post was 1am yesterday, long before the announcement today, so it could be argued that I'm extraordinarily well informed. . . or psychic. I also must be hyper-reactionary, because I somehow got my post there before there was anything to even react to.

It seems we don't speak the same language, so I won't correct your errors above, that is what they are, errors. They are not opinions. An opinion is reserved for a situation where there is no right or wrong. When there are facts, there are no opinions. I encourage you seek out some facts. There are many sources, this is the internet, anyone can find what they want. It's an interesting topic and it can't hurt to learn.

I did agree with one statement you made.. . . . maybe because it was the shortest one, and you didn't have enough time to muck it up.:D ________That was a joke.

I know you usually get the last word, so you are welcome to it, peace.

Is this your concession speech?

I love that your spent that whole time telling me how I'm wrong and no time on an actual argument.

It seems you're not going to lose your condescending attitude, so perhaps it's for the best. I'll remember to ignore you in the future.

4406bbl

I think in the end the taxpayer will make out just fine,as long as congress does not add a bunch of bs in to the bailout. Freddie and Fannie is where the real fraud was,and will take the most money and time to fix. It takes a disaster like this to change things for the better sometimes. This will pass and it is a great time to buy good stocks with earnings that have been slammed for no good reason,you do not get many chances like this in a lifetime. The fed sould bailout every major US bank that needs it as you do not want China, Russia or Dubai to own our major financials,that would be a major disaster.

jdhdiggs

SKS: I'm very interested in what he said that was wrong and full of errors: I'm not above learning something new.... Enlighten me please...

markmarc

History teaches us that neither pure capitalism, nor heavy regulation leads to utopia. The Guilded Age in US History proved that pure capitalism led to the rise of giant monopolies. It finally took the sheer power of Teddy Roosevelt to bring back competition.

The attempt by the gov't in the 1970's to control inflation thru price controls (freezes) only led to higher inflation.

Our current mess is a combination of foolish home loan practices, a who gives a damn about consequences greed, failed SEC regulation, etc..

IMHO the entire financial regulation system needs to be reviewed, and a whole new set of regulations installed in place of the old. 21 century finances need proper regulations that fit current times.

Now that GWB has requested $700 Billion to for 2 years to "fix" the mess, I would like to see him go in front of America and ask/encourage everyone to buy these bonds in order to help finance the recovery. I think it's critical that Americans have a shared sense of financial responsibilty instead of hoping the Chinese buy the bonds. This is something that should have been done for the Afghan & Iraq Wars.

danger boy

I don't claim to know much about how the US economy works.. and what in the past has kept us out of the huge mess we are in today.. but I do know that a lot of major financial players really effed up.

Over extending mortgage loans that i'm sure they must have known people would default on is just plain and simple idiotic. Did they really think that somewhere down the road it wouldn't catch up with them? They set themselves up for a few good years to later nearly bring the financial US economy to it's knees. This isn't just the fault of one institution, it's the fault of and the greed of many major players.

kgingras

John McCain had it right before he had it wrong when his first comment on the AIG bailout was "we cannot have taxpayers bail out AIG or anyone else." Just after Paulson announced the bailout, he said, "failed regulation, reckless management and a casino cultre on Wall Street."

He would have been right on with both this comments if he didn't flip flop on his opposition to the bailout. Why on earth did he cave to the political pressure and change his mind? He is certainly not the strong leader I thought.

Now we see $700B. What about the homeowners who bought a mortgage within their means? Their reward for their hard work is to subsidize those who could not afford it and those lenders trying to get rich.

I can't wait to hear anyone suggest this administration is Conservative.

Let AIG and anyone else fail, the market will find it's way back through ingenuity and hard work, it always has and always will. Government involvement in business is a very bad idea.
__________________________________________________