Lsi's not loud enough?

cokewithvanilla

My current setup is Lsi25, Lsi C, LSifx, Emotiva DMC-1, B&K7270 (200WPC). I like the sound of the lsi's and all, its just they are lacking in the volume department.

I forget what the highest volume I have set them to, but I generally listen to them at -20db on my DMC-1. When I turn them up, there is a point when they start sounding bad. I do not know if I am toping out the actual speaker, or the amp.

Anyhow, I just don't get that punch that I should in movies. Like the opening scene in Sahara with the cannons. I just don't think I am hearing all that I should.

Also, the soundstage seems rather small, I was hoping for a more movie theater type sound since I am in a small room. Is there something I am doing wrong? Do I need more power? Is it possible to use my 2 remaining channels (havent hooked up 7 ch yet) on my B&K to add power to the 25's?

Have any of you noticed a point in which the lsi's stop sounding clear at high volumes? I guess it isnt so much a question of volume, since I end up turning them down because they dont sound right. Basically, I don't want the entire speaker to be louder, but the points in the movie that need volume (like cannons and explosions) to be really noticed.

Any ideas?

ben62670

Night and day difference.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71515

tcrossma

I've had a B&K Reference 200.5 connected to my LSi15's, LSiC, and Klipsch surrounds and I could never even come close to pushing the limits of the speakers. I always got a ton of clean, clear power and I could push it as loud as I could stand.

My surrounds are old and extremely efficient, so maybe it's the added load of your LSiFX that's causing the problem. Or maybe it's the room you are in -- mine is approx 20'x18' with 8' ceilings. Do you have a sub? I had my system crossed at 60hz, so the lows were offloaded to the sub. If you aren't, maybe it's pushing the amp too hard. But I will say, my B&K seemed to have gobs of effortless power that I never even came close to tapping.

Edit: And Ben, no offense, but the LSi's are pretty darn good sounding in stock form. I don't doubt they could sound better with your mods but if someone is having issues I would tend to doubt a mod will make it all better.

Face

Maybe it's a impedance mismatch or gain problem between the pre and the amp.

cokewithvanilla

its definitely not the extra load from the other speakers because this happens in 2 channel mode as well.

I have both lsi subs plugged directly in to the preamp as sub 1 and sub 2. I have the crossovers set at 60hz on the preamp. What does that whole frequency setting do on the back of the lsi? never seems to change anything for me.

I am open to suggestions on mods and what not, although I hate tearing apart a 1500 dollar speaker. HOwever, I consider it more a problem than something that needs to be upgraded. HAve any of you watched the drivers at high volume? mine move like crazy. I was wondering if its simply that the drivers are ...i dont know,,, at capacity?

ben62670

Unfortunately they do not have the diagram posted. I just did the XO upgrade for a buddy, and it is like a whole new speaker. My first comment after getting the goose bumps was how open and detailed they were. His was how much louder they were:)
Whats your location? Maybe a local Polkie can help you out.
Ben

Midnite Mick

That is a surprise to me. I found the lsi's really came alive at higher volumes. The only negative I remember is they would sometimes compress at high volumes with very fast music.

cokewithvanilla

I am in tennessee.

Hmm... what do you guys consider a high volume?


mine seem to sound really nice at around -25 - 20 db on my preamp, but anything more than that is just muddy. I am pretty confident in my 7270's ability to power these things, but I just dont know. Could it have anything to do with my preamp (DMC-1) or the settings?

I am running everything from my computer in both analog and digital. In analog, for some reason, I get no sub (i think this has something to do with the drivers of for my card and vista) but in Digital everything sounds great... until a certain point. The movement of the drivers really concerned me and made me turn the volume down. I dont know how far the drivers are supposed to move, but they were certainly moving more than I wanted to chance. If they arent supposed to move that much, then no mod would help them get louder, right??

im betting that mod voids the warranty on the speaker

how much would it cost to mod my 25’s? and would it be worth doing it to the fx’s and c?

Dennis Gardner

I've pushed up to 450wpc into my LSi15s without them sounding bad, so I would think your amp is clipping. I was amazed that my amp's clip lights were lighting up at what I considered to be loud, but not overly so. Some clip soft while others are ugly sounding.

Loud and clean takes a ton of power with my 15s. I'll try a bigger amp next time.:D

cokewithvanilla

So i need a new amp? that is terrible. know of any 500wpc 7 channel amps that are of equal or better quality than my B&K 7270?

cokewithvanilla

How, exactly, will I know if it is clipping? what should I listen for?

cokewithvanilla

i decided to re-test my speakers to get a better idea of what I was thinking of. I played all sorts of music that sounded fine at high volumes. I then switched to sahara like I had done before.

I now remember why I turned down the speakers when I played it. After playing about 30 seconds into the movie I turned off the speakers and the room smelled different. I went up to the fronts and center and knew right away where it was coming from. It wasnt a bad smell, it just smells like new speakers. You all know that smell of speakers when you run them for the first time.... thats how it smells. I dont know if this is bad or if its just they need to be broken in at higher volumes. However, since I would hate to damage something, and I think that it might be that I am pushing their limits I turn them down.

I had listened to sahara at my neighbors house and was pretty amazed. He has a pair of Mirage Om9's as fronts and just a high end Onkyo Integra receiver. I was able to hear a lot more different sounds, like coins, and the cannons seemed to have more punch. With my lsi's I have some punch, but the feeling I had when watching it at his house was much better.

My amp and preamp should be better than his integra receiver, and he was using his tv's speakers (a pioneer elite) as a center. So I think my center is better, I dont know how the mirages stack up to the lsi's but I just think I should be hearing more. I shouldnt even have to turn it up that high. It got to the point that my ears were hurting, but I still wasnt hearing the sounds I thought I should be hearing.

This second set of tests I ran with the subs off and the crossover set at 60hz (so from my understanding the lsi9 part of the speaker would be playing anything down to 60hz)

Anyhow, I dont want to have my speakers that loud because I fear I would damage them, I guess I just want to hear those sounds I am not hearing.

Any ideas?

Oh, and about that smell…. Should they be doing that?

treitz3

Open up the speakers and carefully remove the crossover network. Take note of anything that looks abnormal. Also, I would suggest taking a very close look at the condition of the tweeters. If you have an ohm meter, please provide the ohm reading with the tweeter disconnected from the circuit. After that, get back to us.

At this point, it sounds like your issues are with a speaker issue and not an amplifier issue. Let's check first to make sure. Smells are bad, mmmmmmK.

Hawkeye

Could be a couple things.

Yes, you can clip a 200 watt amp. From what you descibe, I also think your amp is clipping. I was able to clip my 350 per channel but I was pushing it very hard and listening at that level for any length of time was too loud for me. Fortunately, I had a "soft" clip feature on the amp and did not damage the speakers.

If I'm reading you correctly, it appears to be more of a clarity issue than loudness? I know I would turn the gain up in a misguided effort to hear more detail. If your having a hard time hearing "coins" and other small details, the status of your tweeters/XO need to be verified. If there is something wrong there, you won't hear the detail. I had the RT2000i in my first HT and experienced the same issue as you. Perhaps you like your friends Mirage better than the 25s? It being an omnipolar design will most likely give a different recreation that is more pleasing to you. I went to ESLs for my 2 channel for the detail they produce.

Do you have any type of room treatments? I don't recall you mentioning the size of your room. If you are playing at an intense level in a small room, your detail may be getting lost in the clutter of 1st, 2nd and 3rd reflections. I know in my room, which is 11.5 X 24 with several pieces of room treatments, I can drive my kit to unbelievable levels before the room starts getting congested.

I can't say anything about using a computer as a source since I've never tried it.

Good luck trying to get this resolved.

Gordon

cokewithvanilla

where might I find the crossover?

Face

cokewithvanilla wrote: »

where do I get an ohm meter, and how do I go about pulling apart these speakers?

Radio Shack or Sears Hardware will have a decent selection of Multi-Meters(ohm meter).

cokewithvanilla

I think that the problem isnt the room. although I currently have these speakers in a really small room until I get my theater room finished, if that smell is bad, the room size wont help me

mmadden28

cokewithvanilla wrote: »

where might I find the crossover?

Typically just behind the binding posts, the image below is from my LSi9

cokewithvanilla

ok. I just pulled everything apart. I called polk as well to see what they would recommend. They told me that I might be sending too much power to the C and the FX. My amp is 200wpc at 8ohm and 375 at 4. They say that is more than enough to drive the 25's and too much for the c and fx.

They had me take the tweeter out and plug it directly into the amp and use a low volume to see if I heard any distortion. I do not.

They also had me look at the crossover to see if anything was wrong, visibly it is brand new.

They told me to just send in my tweeters and crossovers to have them checked out. I also asked them if they had full confidence that these speakers were as clear as the Mirage Om9s that I was using as reference, and they said they are better.

I think I should still pick up that ohm meter, but what is your take on everything else? I really would hate to see my speakers disappear for days, but I would like to exchange any parts while they are still under warranty. I think I will go about testing the C in the same manner as I did the 25. If its not the speakers, its the amp... but that doesnt explain the smell from the speakers. If its the amp... well, that sucks.

cokewithvanilla

I called B&K and they told me that it would be pretty clear if the amp had issues. THey said that its pretty much it works or it doesnt.

Alright, ima pull out the C now.

WOuld it be a bad idea to switch the tweeters in my FX's for those in my 25's?

mmadden28

Lasareath wrote: »

....

When I play my Polks at this volume you can feel your internal organs moving!

If you were hear and you were standing 12" from me and I screamed at the loudest I can scream towards you, you would not be able to hear me!

Lasareath

:cool::D:cool::D:cool::D

cokewithvanilla

ok the C tweeter has different numbers than the 25

C: RD0518-2 DPC39
25: RD0517-2 DPB28

Ok....everything looks good.

thats uncool. I think I have to take a shower and get an ohm meter now.

treitz3

At low volume, you should not encounter any issues. That said, if you tested the tweeters at low volume direct to the amp, then there should be no issues. Let the Polk fellas do there thing with checking the X-oversa and tweets out and let's focus on other parts of your system in the meantime.

What are you using as a source?

cokewithvanilla

Source?? My computer with an old Audigy 2 Zs thru s/pdif passthrough hooked to a emotiva dmc-1 which is hooked to a B&K 7270 Series II.

what settings do I turn this multimeter to? I hate these things O_O

Face

You have your computer's volume up all the way, correct? Go through all your sound preferences and turn everything up. Let your pre/pro control the volume for the rest of your system.

For the multi-meter, ohms.

Just curious, what kind of cables are you using? I tried some AR cables a while back and had a volume issue also. The cables must have had high resistance because I had to jack up the volume on my sub to compensate.

Hawkeye

cokewithvanilla wrote: »

They told me to just send in my tweeters and crossovers to have them checked out. I also asked them if they had full confidence that these speakers were as clear as the Mirage Om9s that I was using as reference, and they said they are better.

Customer service is great with Polk! I'm also sure they would say the 25 is better than the Om9, what manufacturer would say otherwise? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anything bad or good about any speaker. It may just be as simple as you prefer the Mirage over the Polk.

cokewithvanilla

under ohms it has 2000k 200k 20k 2000 200

All the sound is up, and it wont allow you to adjust volume when you use passthrough (in powerdvd 8) for that reason exactly.

SPeaker cable? Axiom 12 ga

tcrossma

B&K 7270 too much power for the LSiC and LSiFX??? I trust Polk and all, but that sure doesn't sound right.

treitz3

It's not a preference thing here. It's a volume issue that we are dealing with.

treitz3

Set to 200 ohm with the tweeter unhooked and what does it say?

cokewithvanilla

idk if its volume anymore.... at high volumes these things smell!

Volume and clarity. I think they can be louder, and they should be way more clear.

it was saying like 3.7 ... now it says nothing ... ugh