XPA-2 Protect mode

mmadden28

Not sure what the limits are, but I keep putting my Emotiva XPA-2 into protect mode.
Here's the setup:
Pioneer Elite DV-46AV (using as a CD/SACD player)
Dodd ELP pre
LSi9s

Simple enough right?

Using different source material, I can't get the Dodd's volume much more than 50% before the XPA's protection mode kicks in (scares the crap out of me everytime :eek:). Usually on the right channel. Normal listening can be had around 25-30%.
I also had this happen at least twice with an ipod as a source, but the Dodd was up at about 75% while the iPod was about 75% as well.

It's pretty loud, but I think it should be able to go louder, or have I reached the LSi9's limits somehow? I left my SPL meter at work-I'll bring it home and see if I can get a reading for when it craps out.

I've changed my ICs, my speaker wire, and the tubes-no relevant changes. The amp is directly connected to an outlet via a 14awg basic power cord.

When I hook the iPod directly to the XPA-2 (no pre), I can't get enough volume to kill it.

I used Carried Underwood - Wasted, and I think even Floyd - DSOTM.
Other than that, a hum, and a high noise floor-it sounds BEAUTIFUL!!

I also have an XPA-5 that I can test with, but initially at least, I'd rather not haul either beast up or down a flight of steps (again).

Thanks for any feedback.

george daniel

impedence issue between the dodd and amp? and/or, are you overdriving the amp? I had an adcom 555go into "thermal protection" a couple of times,, but that was at extremely high volume, I'm guessing that might be the case,,just how loud is it? Oh,, what tubes are you using in the dodd,, 6dj8 or varient--yes.?

I went back and checked my elp's no hum,, the only thing that I hear at high volume,with nothing playing is some "tube rush",, have you tried using a two pronged cheater plug with the dodd? Good Luck.

ben62670

The 9's actually dip to 2ohms in the bass region.

george daniel

ben62670 wrote: »

The 9's actually dip to 2ohms in the bass region.

LOL,, I guess that he needs to get an amp with MORE power/current,,, you know those adcoms go well with the dodd elp.

mmadden28

ben62670 wrote: »

The 9's actually dip to 2ohms in the bass region.

I'd expect the XPA-2 to keep up with that--I think thay are built to handle 2 ohms, just not rated for it. I know I read that somewheer or perhaps heard it from Lonnie-I'll have to look for that.

I'm not discounting it-just wary.

ben62670

If it has load protection it may trip. I don't know that amp so I have no idea:(
Ben

george daniel

are you using a power conditioner to the amp?

mmadden28

george daniel wrote: »

impedence issue between the dodd and amp? and/or, are you overdriving the amp? I had an adcom 555go into "thermal protection" a couple of times,, but that was at extremely high volume, I'm guessing that might be the case,,just how loud is it? Oh,, what tubes are you using in the dodd,, 6dj8 or varient--yes.?

I went back and checked my elp's no hum,, the only thing that I hear at high volume,with nothing playing is some "tube rush",, have you tried using a two pronged cheater plug with the dodd? Good Luck.

What would cause an impedance issue? How would I troubleshoot that?

Overdriving? Hmm, not sure. The Dodd is just above 50% volume. the source is (assuming) line out from the SACD. What's the usual max?

I haven't tried a cheater plug yet for the hum-I'd imagine that Nick and SolidSqual, and Phuz already tried that-and since its a known issue with this and other stock ELPS.... I'll try it though for my hiss and to see if it helps reduce the hum--Actually I have a PS Audio power cable on the way with the removeable ground lug. I'll see if that cable helps, then I'll try removing the lug. I have wires everywhere-I might be getting some interference from the power lines. I'll try to pick them up..

Speaking of interference--at one point in the end of the last song on the DSOTM (SACD-2ch), when the man is speaking, I was able to get it up pretty loud, and the background noise was very evident. At first I doubted what I was hearingm, but my freind Q heard it as well. Almost sounded like some other mucis was playing, like classical or something. Almost like when you're playing a cassette tape and you can hear the other side or a previously recorded song.... Anyway I definately thing that is picking up some interference from somewhere, unless PF put some hidden stuff in there

mmadden28

george daniel wrote: »

are you using a power conditioner to the amp?

At one point I had it in a High Current jack on a conditioner, but right now its straight in the outlet with an upgraded (just still stock type) 14awg power cable. Better than the paltry 18awg cable provided.

Are you suggesting I try a conditioner or that it might be a limiting factor?

VXR8

Do you have the Emo plugged into a Power Conditioner? Emo recommend that you DON'T and plug it directly into the power point - just a thought.

Sorry - disregard - you replied as I was still typing

george daniel

I think that it's time to get the Dodd back to Gary. Then hum/noise issue should be resolved. You will be much more pleased when that happens.As for your amp cutting out/protection mode,,I think that is a current/power issue, Just how loud are you playing it? with my dodd connected to Adcom mono's thru carver amazings, about 11' oclock is as loud as I can stand(on the dodd vol). I've followed this thread and hope that you do not get frustrated with the dodd,, it's a sweet little pre,,thats why I keep saying send it back to Gary. Anyhow,, have fun,,, I/ve gotta go to work

mmadden28

Appears it may be an impedance related issue--hmm or power---, would a good test be to bring my RTi12s (8ohms vs 4) down and try them. Or what about some RM-50Ts Or perhaps just one channel connected at a time??

mmadden28

george daniel wrote: »

...I've followed this thread and hope that you do not get frustrated with the dodd,, it's a sweet little pre,,thats why I keep saying send it back to Gary. Anyhow,, have fun,,, I/ve gotta go to work

Not at all, I'm highly optimistic . Actually I troubleshoot things for a living-I expect failure in electronics, but I also know enough to not lay blame (or jump to conclusions) to any one component until I know for sure. Obviously I have two sepaarte issues here-one a minor annoyance that can be resolved. The other an apparent issue with the amp-just what???.

By the way, I started using the Ei Elites 6DJ8E's, today I switched to JJ E8CC's--4:30a my time- time to hit the hay.

Thanks for all the feedback.

ben62670

RTI's 8ohms
LSI9's 2ohms. 2 4ohm woofers in parallel is 2ohms;) Why do you think so many receivers $hit a brick driving them.

mmadden28

ben62670 wrote: »

RTI's 8ohms
LSI9's 2ohms. 2 4ohm woofers in parallel is 2ohms;) Why do you think so many receivers $hit a brick driving them.

I thought they were rated 4ohms?

ben62670

mmadden28 wrote: »

I thought they were rated 4ohms?

That's what they say. They are not 4 ohms in the lower regions. 2 4ohm woofers in parallel is 2ohms;) There are some inductors in the signal path that help, but they dip pretty low. The LSI7's are 4ohms. The LSIc drops to 2 ohms too. I have one apart right next to me. I just pulled the drivers, and measured them for you. 3.9ohms each. This means they dip to 2ohms around 200hz, and less.
http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/specs/individual/bookshelf/lsi9/

george daniel

so ,in my mind,, the amp is hitting the wall so to speak, and goes in to the protection mode? Is that correct?

nikolas812

OK. Heres my thoughts.

The hum is always going to be there until you have Gary fix it.

As for the high noise floor. I don't know where thats comeing from. Its not comeing from the ELP. Unless something happened during shipping.

As for the Emo going into protection. My gut tells me your overdriving the amp. The reason I say this is when I had a XPA-2 hooked up with the 9's and the ELP. At low listening levels, the power meters were maxing out on the amp. A LOT! And this was at low volume. I could only imagine what it would be trying to pull form the amp at high volumes. We never cranked it up so I don't know if the same thing would have happened or not.

The reason I think the high noise floor is comeing from some place else is because I pretty much had your exact system in my listening room at one time. Except for the source and wires. They were identical. And besides the hum the noise floor was dead silent. So maybe theres a issue with your amp or some kind of ground issue. I dunno. But I don't think its comeing from the ELP.

IMO since you have two amps and two sets of speakers. I would try them both. Maybe the load from the Lsi's are too much for the EMO. You should be able to find out by using the Rti's. If it doesn't go into protection mode with them then you'll know.

I would also try the other amp just to see what happens. It might be a **** to haul it up and down the stairs. But it might be worth it in th long run.

I hope these problems don't have you discouraged. Once all the bugs are worked out and you find that synergy you are looking for. It will all be worth it.

Just my $0.02;)



Cheers


Nick

Early B.

The XPA-2 has enough juice to drive just about any set of speakers on the planet. Try another preamp and see what happens.

The noise floor issue could be a result of dirty power. I recently added a high quality power conditioner and the noise floor dropped like a ton of bricks.

marvda1

the dodd elp has quite a bit of gain, when i had mine my listening range was 9:00 to 11:00. sending the pre in to gary may not fix the hum. when i had mine icarried it to gary who couln't get rid of the hum so he gave me the last one that he had done the external transformers on. while the new elp sounded much better the hum was still there just not as loud. either way i could not hear it from my listening seat.

SolidSqual

The issue is not power. That's for sure. The 9's are power hungry, but not enough to throw the amp into submission. You have some other issue.

ben62670

My buddies LSI15's were driven by the Emo also with no problems.
Ben

iskandam

I drove a pair of LSi15, LSi7s and an LSiC with the XPA-5 and have never been able to drive it to protection mode. I'm afraid that my eardrums would explode long before that happens

mmadden28

Phew-I've been actually working today-just now catching up...I'll try to reply in one post.

nikolas812 wrote: »

..
The hum is always going to be there until you have Gary fix it....

Yeah, I know-I intend to do that-more just concerned about the high noise floor/hiss I'm hearing for now.

nikolas812 wrote: »

...
As for the Emo going into protection. My gut tells me your overdriving the amp. The reason I say this is when I had a XPA-2 hooked up with the 9's and the ELP. At low listening levels, the power meters were maxing out on the amp. A LOT! And this was at low volume. I could only imagine what it would be trying to pull form the amp at high volumes. We never cranked it up so I don't know if the same thing would have happened or not....

What was the highest position you ever went to on the ELP (with the LSi9s and the XPA-2)? This is happening to me at just above 50% (12 oclock). I'll have to recreate tonight to be sure.

nikolas812 wrote: »

..
...
IMO since you have two amps and two sets of speakers. I would try them both. Maybe the load from the Lsi's are too much for the EMO. You should be able to find out by using the Rti's. If it doesn't go into protection mode with them then you'll know.

I would also try the other amp just to see what happens. It might be a **** to haul it up and down the stairs. But it might be worth it in the long run.
...

Yep, that was something I expect to try tonight--However I think I'll carry the ELP and the LSi9s upstairs instead of moving either amp (duh) . I have a pair of RM50Ts downstairs already I can try. I'll try out every possible combination of connections and speakers I can and report back on my findings. To many variables right now-I need to rule some out to get to the cause. I need to go eat a can of spinach.

nikolas812 wrote: »

..
I hope these problems don't have you discouraged. Once all the bugs are worked out and you find that synergy you are looking for. It will all be worth it.

..No I'm not discouraged-I'm enthusiastic-:)-so far the sound is better than I ever heard the system (as young as it is), so right now I am of the mindset that it WILL only get better-its just a matter of getting it all setup properly and knowing its limitations (wether fixed or self imposed). I never expected to have a complete 2 channel system (not that it is) or audio bliss so soon anyway-I expect it to take time-besides I don't even have a dedicated listening room yet-so its a work in progress anyway. Its a fun journey and I am learning lots on the way-so nothing is lost here.

Early B. wrote: »

The XPA-2 has enough juice to drive just about any set of speakers on the planet. Try another preamp and see what happens.

I figured that about the XPA-2--if it weren't the XPA-2 I would almost expect it, but...

Early B. wrote: »

The noise floor issue could be a result of dirty power. I recently added a high quality power conditioner and the noise floor dropped like a ton of bricks.

I'll have to try that again-I also have a PS Audio power cable on the way-we'll see if that does anything.

marvda1 wrote: »

the dodd elp has quite a bit of gain, when i had mine my listening range was 9:00 to 11:00.

That was one of my thoughts, that perhaps it just has a lot of gain, but still I expected louder output before I hit max--I have to get an SPL reading since what's loud to might be way way to loud for others and beyond the limits of something....

marvda1 wrote: »

sending the pre in to gary may not fix the hum. when i had mine icarried it to gary who couln't get rid of the hum so he gave me the last one that he had done the external transformers on. while the new elp sounded much better the hum was still there just not as loud. either way i could not hear it from my listening seat.

Yeah, I read the posts-I basically know what to expect--I don't expect dead silent-for that I guess I would have to have a battery powered pre. I just want to minimize as much as possible.

iskandam wrote: »

I drove a pair of LSi15, LSi7s and an LSiC with the XPA-5 and have never been able to drive it to protection mode. I'm afraid that my eardrums would explode long before that happens

I haven't put my XPA-5 into protection yet (using the Onk 805 as a pre). Perhaps I was too chicken to go higher :eek:
I definately got louder output from the RTi12s than the Lsi9-Of course I would expect that between a Floorstander and a Bookshelf.

Thansk again for the suggestions and feedback.

mmadden28

george daniel wrote: »

...I went back and checked my elp's no hum,, the only thing that I hear at high volume,with nothing playing is some "tube rush"....

Can you describe what 'tube rush' sounds like?

Thanks

SolidSqual

Nik and I had that ELP over half with my XPA-2s (since returned to Emotiva). The amp was not stressed.

george daniel

mmadden28 wrote: »

Can you describe what 'tube rush' sounds like?

Thanks

With nothing playing,,and the volume up on your pre,,it sounds like a faint low level hiss,, at least thats the best way I can describe it,,typically with better tubes,,the less the "hiss" in my limited experience.

mmadden28

OK family is about, and the kids are not behavin' so the wife is constantly looking to me for some discipline backup-(thereby interupting me and being quite noisy) Not to mention I can't crank it up with the boys inthe same room .

Anyway I will post some of the results of my testing as I go along..
First. I figured out exactly where I can get it to go into protect mode adn can reproduce it every time.
Playing Carrie Underwood, Wasted (redbook CD) via the Pio 46AV.
The ELP is in place and the volume is set at approximately 10 o'clock (That gain increases fast).
The part of the song is right at the beginning when the violins gear up. Now it is not bery loud at this point, I have gotten this setup to go louder, Perhaps its the highs? What frequencies are more likely to cause a dip in impedance??
Hers a pic of the ELP volume setting:


Heres a vid of the event:
Note: It varies on the channel that goes into protect mode, could be right, left or both-depends on the song.


I'm going to swap the ICs out fromt he Silvers to the Monoprice next...

nikolas812

Just watched the video. You've got some issues!:eek:

I hope its not the ELP.......

Have you posted a question about your problem on the Emotiva Forum yet?

That seems like a pretty major problem. I don't have a clue as to what it would be. I guess its just a matter of process and elimination.

Hope you get it figured out,


Fyi. That was reference level when I had it. (75db)



Nick

Systems

Is it only happenig on the right channel?Is that channel getting excessively hot in comparison to the other?If so switch the speakers to opposite sides and see if the problem fallows the right speaker.

Early B.

Try this -- swap out the interconnects to the amp. As you may know, the XPA-2 and XPA-5 are sensitive to cables for some reason.