how high to put 4 surround speakers on walls?

BjornB17

My new house will have a living room that is about 19x17. The ceiling slopes and one side will be 8' high and the other is 10' (right to left when looking at th screen). I will have 4x RTi4 as surrounds but would like to know what the optimal height of them would be. The seating area (couch) will likely be right up against the rear wall.

unc2701

Room placement is HIGHLY unpredictable and tastes vary. Your best bet is to find a good reference track with a lot of surround action, then get four friends to come over hold up the speakers for you while you listen

I'll be the first to admit that I had my surrounds is the wrong spot for months. I put them right where I read online & in the manual, but moving each by about four feet made a massive difference.

Erik Tracy

If you have 4 "surrounds" and your listening spot is the couch up against the back wall, are you really trying for 7.1?

From what I've read, if you do not have space behind your listening spot, you may as well forego trying for 7.1.

If you are trying to figure out how to 'best fit' rear surrounds, then you have to tell us if your room configuration allows for locating the rear surrounds to the sides of the couch.

But I think the general 'rule of thumb' is to locate surrounds above ear level and pointed away from the listening spot to try and diffuse the sound so as to minimize localization so you can't tell the rears are 'pointing right at you'.

My setup is with the couch up against the back wall - family room open on the kitchen side and a window to the other side, so I had to ceiling mount my RTI4s and angle them down and forward.

Is it the best configuration for 5.1? No. But given the constraints of the room it works as best as I can figure out.

ymmv,

BjornB17

Thanks for the replies. The reason why i can't try the first suggestion is that it is for my house that is under construction. i am having it prewired for surround and I need to select the locations and heihts of the wire terminals for the surround speakers. With this in mind I pretty much have to get it right the first time.

please see the attached layout:


the living room is the room on the top left. The little boxes i drew in are where i tentatively have the speakers set. The ceiling is 8' on the left side and 10' on the right (i misstated that earlier).

Feel free to offer any kind of alternative (including moving seats around and what not).

Thanks!

unc2701

Yeah, Eric nailed it. That's more of a 5.1 kinda room. I'd do what you have, and throw in a spare set of wires in the left hand corners of that pic, if you're doing it yourself. If you're paying, then ignore that. Put everything 5-6 feet off the ground.

Putting in the spares will let you try a wider seperation on the rears or move the surrounds to the back wall if you don't like them mid-room. Having the surrounds in front of the listening position is going to probably sound bad.

BjornB17

Yeah i think you guys are right in a lot of respects. The windows, door, and opening to the rest of the house is somewhat constraining and really limits where i can place them. My concern with having the left and right surround channels so far in front of the seating position is that the listener will not get a great surround effect. What happens to a 7.1 system when playhing a 5.1 movie? doe the surround channels get duplicated to fill in the 2 extra speakers or does it get matrixed somehow?

Also, if i do decide to go for 7.1 anyway, would it be better to have the 2 rear channels on the side walls much like the left and right surround channels, but instead near the corners of the room?

Erik Tracy

BjornB17 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. The reason why i can't try the first suggestion is that it is for my house that is under construction. i am having it prewired for surround and I need to select the locations and heihts of the wire terminals for the surround speakers. With this in mind I pretty much have to get it right the first time.

please see the attached layout:


the living room is the room on the top left. The little boxes i drew in are where i tentatively have the speakers set. The ceiling is 8' on the left side and 10' on the right (i misstated that earlier).

Feel free to offer any kind of alternative (including moving seats around and what not).

Thanks!

Any possibility of moving the couch off of the back wall?

If not, I'd go for more separation for the rear surrounds - a bit tricky with that window on the side of the couch - so they may have to go all the way in the corners.

It's tough...lots of tradeoffs if you don't have total control of the layout.

BjornB17

does anybody else have some suggestions?

kuntasensei

My seating situation isn't awfully dissimilar from yours as far as my couch previously being smack against the wall. What I ended up doing was pulling my couch a foot off the wall. Then I mounted my rear surrounds using Omnimount brackets, 2 feet over ear level and angled as far down as they'll go. It's not optimal, but I do still get good side-to-rear pans and solid rear imaging (though it took a careful run through with Audyssey MultEQ to make it seamless). I can spin around in a video game and hear sounds move smoothly around me without any issues.

As far as your side surround placement, I would rethink it. Your current placement would be good for something like dipoles in a strictly 5.1 setup because they'd be more diffuse and project more along the walls. But for direct radiating speakers, you want them directly to your left and right, a few feet up on the wall. I wouldn't jam them flush into the corner if you can help it, however, because you need to consider how the sound will reflect off that back wall. You can put them slightly in front of your listening position, but your current plan puts them WAY too far forward. Also, you might consider articulating brackets like the Omnimounts for the sides as well, since they would bring them slightly off the wall and let you play with the speaker aiming a bit to get the best possible sound. Just something to consider.

You're going to have a few acoustic issues no matter what you do. For instance, that open doorway near your right side surround is going to make it sound a little thinner than the left surround. It will likely balance out slightly with level calibration, but know that it may be an issue. You'll also get a change in the sound of your right main because of the open doorway to its right, because the sound won't reflect the way it does on the left. I know many here decry them and the purist in me agrees in theory, but this is where I've had good luck with acoustic correction stuff like Audyssey MultEQ in my Onkyo 705. My right surround is next to an open doorway, as is my right main, and MultEQ made a significant difference as far as getting each speaker to sound more similar in tone and give me a more cohesive soundstage with cross-speaker pans. You might consider using a receiver or pre-pro that has Audyssey MultEQ (as many Onkyo and Denon models do now) so that you at least have the option of using it. If you don't like its effect on the sound, you can always turn it off. Your H/K may have Audyssey, but I'm too lazy to look it up. If it does, I'd give it a shot and do all 8 listening positions once you get everything finished (and I can give you advice on that when you get to that point).

Another consideration, and I know this will sound a little crazy, is placing the rear surrounds on the floor behind your couch, facing up. Pull the couch off the wall a little and you should get a good surround effect from them that way. This will greatly alter the tone of the speaker and is definitely not ideal, but will still give you the directional cues important for 7.1.

Regarding what happens with 5.1 material played back on a 7.1 setup, there are processing methods that do a good job of converting 5.1 to 7.1 without just duplicating the side surrounds. For instance, I run my receiver in Dolby Pro-Logic IIx Movie Mode full time. With 5.1 games and movies, this does an excellent job of steering sounds that are identical in phase and level between the side surrounds to the rears. This is essentially what 6.1 processes like Dolby EX do (and in a more complex way that I won't get into, DTS-ES), but with better between-speaker steering.

walk

Optimal height is 2-3' above ear level when seated at the listening position.

http://thx.com/home/setup/speakers/side.html

olilugo

I have read in a few places that the back and side spekers should be 5 to 6 feet from the ground.

kuntasensei

Well, customarily, 5-6' from the ground is near 2-3' above listening position anyway.

Unless you're going to use THX full time (and you won't), stick with Dolby's specs instead:
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/home_entertainment/roomlayout2.html

The difference is primarily that THX recommends placing the rear surrounds right next to each other as a holdover from legacy THX models for 6.1 (pre-7.1 surround), whereas Dolby places the rear surrounds to work better with Dolby EX 6.1 and newer 7.1 methods. If your receiver has THX settings and you plan on using THX, placement by Dolby specs can be offset by adjusting the THX setting for distance between the rear surrounds.

walk

That doesn't say anything about height though, just placement/layout relative to the couch.
The height should be "2 feet or higher above the listener."

THX shows a similar 7.1 layout here:
http://thx.com/home/setup/speakers/dolby.html
Like it says, you just set the THX options to the right distance apart the rears are. Mine are about 5ft apart so I use "more than 4ft". That way it works pretty much the same as the Dolby setup. I use THX modes 99% of the time. :cool:

The room will dictate best placement usually, unless you are building a theater from scratch.... In which case those are ideal locations.

BjornB17

Well i got to go out to the neighborhood and I saw another house (same floorplan as mine) under construction and in the framing stage (mine is only in foundation stage).

It appears that 7.1 just won't be practical in this room unless i have all 4 surrounds on the rear wall which might look funny. The room is plenty big but has an akward layout with windows and openings. I'm thinking about leaving it as 5.1 but still having the 7 speakers + sub. Here's what i have in mind:

Those surround speakers in the middle of the room will stay there. The ones in the back will be moved to the corners. Both speakers on the left will play the surround left channel. Likewise for the 2 speakers on the right.

Here's how I plan on wiring the system (atleast in short term until i get two separate amps) to the UPA-7. Both of the surround left speakers will be wired in series to one channel on the UPA-7. Same for both right surrounds. Each RTi10 will be bi-amped (using 2 channels from the UPA-7 to each speaker). This will leave 1 channel left to power the CSi5. If i ever do get a second UPA-7 I will bi-amp all 7 speakers. I may also try to just single-amp all 7 speakers just to see if its any better/worse.

Does this sound like a good plan or does anybody have any other suggestions?

kuntasensei

Y'know... if you have to put them on the back wall, you could use articulating brackets to tow the surrounds way in so they point toward the couch. That would essentially give you the same effect as having them on the side and slightly behind (per the Dolby spec). Then you could still go 7.1.

Another crazy thought: Have you considered using some Polk in-walls for the rear surrounds?

BjornB17

kuntasensei wrote: »

Y'know... if you have to put them on the back wall, you could use articulating brackets to tow the surrounds way in so they point toward the couch. That would essentially give you the same effect as having them on the side and slightly behind (per the Dolby spec). Then you could still go 7.1.

Another crazy thought: Have you considered using some Polk in-walls for the rear surrounds?

I like the idea of the brackets. so that would put all 4 speakers on the back wall but with 2 toed in. Thanks!

I'm not a big fan of in-walls so I will try to avoid that. I hope my fiance isnt reading this because she would want to use those instead! Plus I already have 4 RTi4's coming in the mail that i got a good deal on so I'd like to use them

kuntasensei

Glad I could help!

BjornB17

I'm thinking about putting a pair of FXi3s on the sides near the corners (instead of RTi4) and a pair of RTi4's on the back wall. Would this work out better? The FXi's ought to help diffuse the sounds on the side of the room a little bit.

What do you guys think?

kuntasensei

That should work well, and you can switch them from dipole to bipole to see which sounds best to you.

BjornB17

awesome!

Well what was inded to be an upgrade for my front speakers only has turned out to be a revamp of my entire system (except for subwoofer!)

BjornB17

Would there be any benefit to having a pair of FXi3s in the center of the room (for LR surround), a pair in the back of the room on the sides (again for LR surrounds) in addition to the RTi4s in the back?

I'm just throwing all these ideas out there before i settle on a final electrical plan for the house

kuntasensei

In a larger room, I'd say you might do well to have two sets of side surrounds... but in your room, I think it's overkill. It'd also make level calibration a little less straight-forward.

walk

7.1 is sort of overkill already. I would definitely go with dipoles on the sides, they made a big difference in my room. THX and Dolby both recommend direct/monopoles for the rear, but if they are going to be right on top of the listener (ie couch pushed up against back wall and speakers on that wall) dipoles could work there too. You might also try moving the couch forward more into the room.

BjornB17

Hey guys,

So i've aquired a pair of FXi3. Assuming that my couch will be all the way on the back wall as the picture shows, do you think the FXi3 will be better in the back or on the sides, since i have no clearance between couch and rear wall but several feet on either side? RTi4s would be used where the FXi3's arent u sed.

kuntasensei

Honestly, I'd say wire the positions then try them in both spots with material that pans around the room. Which is better will be up to your personal preference, really.

OnlyPolk

kuntasensei wrote: »

Y'know... if you have to put them on the back wall, you could use articulating brackets to tow the surrounds way in so they point toward the couch. That would essentially give you the same effect as having them on the side and slightly behind (per the Dolby spec). Then you could still go 7.1.

Another crazy thought: Have you considered using some Polk in-walls for the rear surrounds?

kuntasensei: is this per Dolbyequivalent or are you just thinking that it would. I'm getting ready to put up a pair of fxiA4's with wall mounts and if I could use the back wall , it would be easier in some ways. Do they need to be spaced the same distance as the mains?

kuntasensei

Dolby wants the side surrounds on the side walls, slightly behind you and a few feet above you. But if you have a couch really close to the back wall, you can basically simulate that placement by mounting direct radiators on the back wall on brackets and towing them as far in as you can. As long as they fall in line with Dolby's suggested placement angles (found here), you should get good sound out of them.

That said, FXiA4s probably wouldn't benefit from articulating brackets, and frankly would look very odd that way. They're made to be wall-mounted. Now, if your couch is flush with the back wall and you have room to the sides but can't wall mount them on the side walls, you might get acceptable sound by mounting FXi series speakers on the back wall, near the corners with the drivers facing toward the listening position. This would aim the drivers somewhere roughly in the 90-110 degree recommended angle for surrounds and also give you reflections off the side wall from the tweeters on the other face of the speaker to give it a little more diffuse a sound. If you can't do ideal placement, a little quick visualization of where the sound will aim/reflect should give you a few acceptable options.

BjornB17

I just thought I'd post an update to this. I just moved into my house and set up the speakers. I ditched the RTi4's and now have 4 FXi3's.... two on the rear wall on either side of the couch, facing the front of the room..... and one in the rear corner of either side of the room facing the couch. Sides are set to dipole and rears to bipole. sound is AWESOME and thats just with an HK AVR140... cant wait to get the Emotiva UPA-7 soon.

Also one thing i noticed.... the 12" Velodyne CHT-12 sub sounds so much better in a large room like this.... plenty of space for the long sound waves coming out of it.

kuntasensei

If you get that UPA-7, let me know what you think. I'm running RTi70 mains, CSi40 center and 4 RTi28 surrounds... and I'm torn between snagging a UPA-7 for all 7 channels or getting a XPA-3 for the front soundstage and letting my Onkyo 705 run the surrounds.

BjornB17

You do realize that if you buy an XPA-3, you'll probably end up buying an XPA-5 or something for your surrounds since you will wonder what THAT will sound like?

polktiger

I would change your way of looking at that room...
Move the TV / Front end to the wall where you have the couch now, and let your couch "float" in the room. The back of the couch will also serve to create a walkway as people pass through the room when coming from the kitchen.
If you need to be able to see the TV from the kitchen, just add a drop in the kitchen for another TV. Hopefully there are pulling at least 1 cat6 to every place the are pulling an RG6. Since wire is really the cheap part, have them pull doubles and just leave the extra lines unterminated for future use.