Emotiva XPA-2 Maximum Output Considerations . . . DON'T USE POWER CONDITIONING!!!!

SolidSqual

DarqueKnight's thread on PS Audio PCs touched upon the Power Plant Premier and its ability to only output 1,500 watts at its peaks. He indicated his Parasound JC1s can output about 1,700 watts @ 2ohms. So, basically the PPP would arguably hamper the performance of the JC1s.

Naturally his observations compelled me to wonder, what kind of output are my amps capable of at their peaks.

I asked the question on the Emotiva forums:

http://emotivalounge.proboards54.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=amps&thread=2012&page=1

"Lonnie" Emotiva Global Mod - "It has a max output of just over 2000 watts and given the efficiency losses of the amp stage and power supply it could draw as much as 2800 watts.

We don't recommed that any of our amps be run through a power conditioner. They all have power conditioning, over voltage, under voltage, surge protection and such build in and it is designed to allow maximum performace from the amp. We currently have an amp that just came in for service and it is very appearant that it was run on a power conditioner and the regulators on each modules were highly stressed and one of the modules has melted completely.

Please do not put any of the amps on a power conditioner."

Hawkeye

SS,

You may want to consider trying a Richard Gray product. I have a 600s which is capable of passing a full 20 amps. My amps will draw 6.6 amps at wide open throttle. While I have not played with exotic power cords yet, the plugging of my amps into the RGPC has had significant reduction of the noise floor. Yet, I have noticed no choking of the amps. Granted I do not listen at ear splitting levels either. Normal spl of 80-90

I borrowed a friends Pole Pig which is designed for the front end only and it passes 700 watts. It is an isolator. By plugging the front end into the Pole Pig and then plugging the Pig into the 600s the results are simply stunning. I may try the cords mentioned by DK in his original thread. I can only imagine what lies ahead.

I'm trying not to step on either yours or DK's thread but considering the subject, maybe that damaged amp took a lighting strike or voltage surge. Personally, I don't feel comfortable leaving my stuff unprotected, even at the slight cost of MAYBE choking an amp. I mean, honestly, when and for how long could a person run the gear at wide open?

Gordon

SassySmi

I"m looking into alternatives right now and asking more questions form Emotiva about surge protection. Thanks for the heads up on the gear.

Damnit, my girlfriend has been on my computer.

hang on.

SolidSqual

Look out for SassySmi, she was completely against my hobby until recently. Now she lurks on the Polk thread seeing what my next purchases are.

tryrrthg

Are you on a 20 amp circuit or a 15? if you're on a 15 don't bother because if your circuit can't handle the load then there is no sense in upgrading your power conditioner to one that will handle 20 amps.

SolidSqual

tryrrthg wrote: »

Are you on a 20 amp circuit or a 15? if you're on a 15 don't bother because if your circuit can't handle the load then there is no sense in upgrading your power conditioner to one that will handle 20 amps.

Yeah, I'm only pushing 15.

Early B.

As Lonnie indicated, there's no need for a power conditioner on the Emotiva amps. I don't use one on my XPA-2.

WilliamM2

2800 watts is almost 24 amps. Seems you would need a dedicated 30 amp circuit to run the XPA-2 to it's full output.

Face

I'm with Hawkeye, how many of you guys run your amps at full throttle? Most of my listening is around 1 watt due to my room and the efficiency of my speakers. I have a pair of SDA's in a larger room and don't believe that rig has been over 100 watts ever.

SolidSqual

Face wrote: »

I'm with Hawkeye, how many of you guys run your amps at full throttle? Most of my listening is around 1 watt due to my room and the efficiency of my speakers. I have a pair of SDA's in a larger room and don't believe that rig has been over 100 watts ever.

Looking at the meter on the face of the amp, the side connected to my tweeters remains at one dot constantly except for a few spikes to two dots here and there. The woofers by contrast remain around two dots and spike to the max frequently when playing Rock, Classical or other sweeping dynamic music. I'm not sure how the dots translate into total output but I like to know when I do push my speakers that they are no hampered by anything. Also I don't want to fry my amps as EMotiva claims could happen.

If I can sell my conditioner however, then I am all for it. One less component is a good thing and is just a few more bucks in my pocket. I'm going to have to think this through.

Serendipity

Face wrote: »

I'm with Hawkeye, how many of you guys run your amps at full throttle? Most of my listening is around 1 watt due to my room and the efficiency of my speakers. I have a pair of SDA's in a larger room and don't believe that rig has been over 100 watts ever.

Your rig at 3 watts was LOUD!

Most of my listening is around 1 watt too.

SolidSqual

This puts my mind at ease . . . I'm selling my PPP.

"Lonnie" Emotiva Mod - "All of our amplifiers have over voltage, under voltage, spike/ surge protection, power filtering, multiple layers of power isolation, 100% primary to secondary ground isolation and even lightning arrestors built in and they are all desinged to allow maximum performance from the amp.

Now a quick word on lightning arrestors. If your house gets a direct hit or something pretty close, there is nothing in this world that will save your equipment (anyones equipment). A lightning arrestor is a type of MOV which will engage to dump the surge to the neutral line. But when you consider that lightning itself can move across a couple of thousand feet of open air there is no guarantee that they will be able to stop a strong shot. Now to that end, we have repaired several amps and processors that got hit and to date have not charged anyone for the repair."

DarqueKnight

Hawkeye wrote: »

I mean, honestly, when and for how long could a person run the gear at wide open?

Face wrote: »

I'm with Hawkeye, how many of you guys run your amps at full throttle? Most of my listening is around 1 watt due to my room and the efficiency of my speakers. I have a pair of SDA's in a larger room and don't believe that rig has been over 100 watts ever.

Again, if your goal is high quality music reproduction, high power is not about facilitating the ability to play loud or running your gear at full throttle, it is about facilitating the peak power requirements of transients, some of which can require up to 100 times the "normal" power draw.

Serendipity

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Again, if your goal is high quality music reproduction, high power is not about facilitating the ability to play loud or running your gear at full throttle, it is about facilitating the peak power requirements of transients, some of which can require up to 100 times the "normal" power draw.

Hmm...

Not trying to offend anyone here, but a while back I was at Face's and with 3 watts, it's plenty. I've also heard tube setups before with 6-8 watts/ch and I was satisfied. My AVR puts out a solid 52W/ch (not the claimed 100w/ch) and I'm happy with that too.

steveinaz

My power amps have always been plugged directly into the wall---for 32 years.

Gaara

All about source material and how loud you play. Some music is very dynamic, a 10db peak reqs. 10x the power. Most of what I personally listen to is mass market crap, maybe 3-6db peaks max.

I keep my amps (525wpc 8ohm) plugged into balanced power. Even when I had my Cinenova running 900wpc into 2 speakers I had it into a line conditioner. Never drew more then ~7 amps, that's during a movie peak at reference levels. Power conditioner was powering the Cinenova, a SVS sub, 34in xbr tube, dvd player and pre amp. Normal level non peak was 4 amps draw, w/ music it was 3 amps.

I keep my current amps plugged into my BPT the same reason others plug em into the wall, they sound better that way. All system dependent so no use arguing over it.

heiney9

I'd have to see 2800 watts to believe it. ****, the Pass Labs X1000 puts out 1000 wpc and the weighs 175 lbs and is all heat sink. Of course it idles at 600 wpc.

I'm sure the sustainable output of the Emotiva isn't much more than stock with the modded version as you'd need to quadruple the cooling area to achieve that output.

I'm so over the high power rating of amplifiers. A simple robust design that can double the current and double the watts when you half the impedance and can provide all the grunt you need for just about any speaker produced and also shorting the outputs has no effect is far more impressive than a "mod" that can achieve a theoretical 2800 wpc on paper.

Unless you are trying to fill a stadium wpc really mean nothing to me. I'm more into the design philosophy, parts used and topology.

YMMV

H9

RutgersFTW

Great post, heiney.

heiney9

appadv wrote: »

Hmm...

Not trying to offend anyone here, but a while back I was at Face's and with 3 watts, it's plenty. I've also heard tube setups before with 6-8 watts/ch and I was satisfied. My AVR puts out a solid 52W/ch (not the claimed 100w/ch) and I'm happy with that too.

Listen to a First Watt piece sometime. Nelson's new philosophy or trend is to make those first few watts sound as musically good as possible. Granted the F1, F2, F3 are not for every loudspeaker and NP makes no bones about that (that's what the X.5 series is for). The new F5 is 25 wpc and has more sonic characteristics of the original Aleph, but it probably won't run a pair of Amazings to loud levels. It'll drive them with out a hiccup, but not to a high spl.

SolidSqual

heiney9 wrote: »

I'd have to see 2800 watts to believe it. ****, the Pass Labs X1000 puts out 1000 wpc and the weighs 175 lbs and is all heat sink. Of course it idles at 600 wpc.

I'm sure the sustainable output of the Emotiva isn't much more than stock with the modded version as you'd need to quadruple the cooling area to achieve that output.

I'm so over the high power rating of amplifiers. A simple robust design that can double the current and double the watts when you half the impedance and can provide all the grunt you need for just about any speaker produced and also shorting the outputs has no effect is far more impressive than a "mod" that can achieve a theoretical 2800 wpc on paper.

Unless you are trying to fill a stadium wpc really mean nothing to me. I'm more into the design philosophy, parts used and topology.

YMMV

H9

I agree with every bit of your post. Simple designs coupled with creative topologies that use quality parts are what high end amps shouldbe. But, I didn't buy the amps because they touted extreme wattage nor was my point of this thread to tout such wattage. I bought the amps because I knew they would sound better than my S300s. I started this thread because I was concerned my amps would not be able to reach their full potential with my PPP in the component string.

Watts aside, Emotiva makes a damn fine amp. In fact, one thing that keeps bothering me is my own common sense. I feel like the amp has to be cheating me somehow. There's just no way something like this could cost so little. My only complaint is that the top cover is not very modern. The metal of the cover is kind of thin and does not portray the same aesthetic power as the amp conveys in sound. In addition, ventilation slots like that of a common Yamaha receiver are spread across the top of the cover in a grid pattern. I don't like that. It reminds me of cheaper electronics. I much prefer the Odyssey top covers as they are lke plate armor. But again, this is an extremely minor complaint and really the only oneI have now. It's sad, but I feel like I should be finding more things wrong for the little money I paid. But, I'm not. It's stupid. I'm stupid.

Hawkeye

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Again, if your goal is high quality music reproduction, high power is not about facilitating the ability to play loud or running your gear at full throttle, it is about facilitating the peak power requirements of transients, some of which can require up to 100 times the "normal" power draw.

DK, I agree completely. However, if a conditioner is only capable of passing say 10 amps and my amps draw 13 at WOT, then they will be limited. If a conditioner can pass 20 amps they will not and my potential power is available for peaks. I guess that was the point I was trying to make on my earlier post.

By the way, I enjoy your reviews and writing style.

Gordon

Early B.

SolidSqual wrote: »

It's sad, but I feel like I should be finding more things wrong for the little money I paid. But, I'm not. It's stupid. I'm stupid.

:D:p:D:D
Damn fine amp if the top cover is your only gripe.

I'm a fanatic for low price, high quality. Every piece of gear I own falls into that category. Emotiva gear is the best company I've run across where the price/quality ratio is almost too good to be true.

There's no reason to pay more and get less.

SolidSqual

Early B. wrote: »

:D:p:D:D
Damn fine amp if the top cover is your only gripe.

I'm a fanatic for low price, high quality. Every piece of gear I own falls into that category. Emotiva gear is the best company I've run across where the price/quality ratio is almost too good to be true.

There's no reason to pay more and get less.

I'm really glad you gave me the last push to buy these amps. It' ridiculous, but I actually feel like I need to spend more money. I can't believe the sound I am getting out of these things. It was the same feeling I had and still have when listening to my Emmys.

Going through the amp specs, they easily compare to the top end Odysseys, Parasound and even greater high end amps in the $2000 plus ranges. But, Emotiva sells these things as alternatives to Receivers? Are you frickin kidding me? I'd like to hear a $5,000 receiver sound like these amps. I'm just going to convince myself that I dropped about 3 Gs on these things then I'll feel good that I have a great pair of amps and didn't pay to much to have 'em.

F1nut

SolidSqual wrote: »

"Lonnie" Emotiva Global Mod - "It has a max output of just over 2000 watts and given the efficiency losses of the amp stage and power supply it could draw as much as 2800 watts.

That's interesting as they list the specs as following,

Power output: 250 watts RMS/ channel into 8 ohms, 500 watts RMS/ channel into 4 ohms and 1,000 watts RMS bridged.

So, in order to output 2000 watts it would have to be stable at 1 ohm, which I find highly unlikely. Maybe Lonnie could enlighten us on that, eh?

SolidSqual

F1nut wrote: »

That's interesting as they list the specs as following,

Power output: 250 watts RMS/ channel into 8 ohms, 500 watts RMS/ channel into 4 ohms and 1,000 watts RMS bridged.

So, in order to output 2000 watts it would have to be stable at 1 ohm, which I find highly unlikely. Maybe Lonnie could enlighten us on that, eh?

I agree. Was just thinking about that. . . especially since they have indicated on several occasions that the XPA-2 is not 2 ohm stable.

Just posted the question on the Emotiva forum. I will post the answer here when I get it.

F1nut

Yeah, I think Lonnie may be a tad proud. In reality, you'd be fine running that amp thru an appropriate power conditioner.

SolidSqual

F1nut wrote: »

Yeah, I think Lonnie may be a tad proud. In reality, you'd be fine running that amp thru an appropriate power conditioner.

But, I'd be fine getting rid of the PPP right? I hope so because then I got free money to play!

F1nut

It's your gear, do whatever you like. All I'm saying is that the use of a power conditioner that can pass at least 15 amps (1800 watts) would be fine to use with that amp.

SolidSqual

F1nut wrote: »

It's your gear, do whatever you like. All I'm saying is that the use of a power conditioner that can pass at least 15 amps (1800 watts) would be fine to use with that amp.

Cool, I'm selling it.

Early B.

F1nut wrote: »

That's interesting as they list the specs as following,

Power output: 250 watts RMS/ channel into 8 ohms, 500 watts RMS/ channel into 4 ohms and 1,000 watts RMS bridged.

So, in order to output 2000 watts it would have to be stable at 1 ohm, which I find highly unlikely. Maybe Lonnie could enlighten us on that, eh?

This may help a bit, but from what I understand, the specs are terribly understated. For instance, the XPA-2 is still listed on the Emo website as having 120,000 uf of capacitance, but when I popped the hood, there was 180,000 up in there.

I'm guessing the XPA-2 is capable of handling a 2-ohm load or even lower, but Lonnie doesn't recommended it. Here's the direct quote:

"The reason they [XPA-2 and XPA-5] are not rated or recommended for 2 ohm operation is due to power requrements. When you go from 8 ohms down to 4, the amount of power the amp draws from the wall doubles and when you go from 4 down to 2 that doubles again. If you were to run the amps at a continous 2 ohm load with dips dropping down to 1 ohm a 20 amp circuit would not be able to support the load and you would pop the break. Not to mention the heat generation would go up exponentially. The output of the amp itself would go quadruple, so forth and so on."

F1nut

Sounds like a tap dance to me.