Just disconnected my subwoofer...

Serendipity

So - for the last few weeks, I've disconnected my sub and have been listening to 2 channel with just the Definitives and I like the sound much better.

Has anyone else experimented with/without a sub for 2ch music? At one point I didn't hear a difference (I had the sub turned WAY down), but now removing the sub seems to clear up some things.

Why is this???

SolidSqual

I've experimented with a sub in every 2 channel system I have ever owned. In the end, no matter how well I got the sub dialed in, after a while I felt the sub degraded the sound. the boxiness of the bass was just unacceptable with the speakers I was pairing them with.

That being said, the best sub I ever owned was an SVS 29-39 PC-Plus. So. . . not exactly high end. I bet a JL audio Fathom would sound better or a Vandersteen sub. I just haven't got around to one of those. If I do add another sub, I think it would be two bass panels from Emerald Physics. The dipole bass is excellent. However, right now, I'm more than happy with my bass.

I'll be eyeing the Emerald Physics CS1 later this year . . .

ctrulock

Just turned my sub off. I do hear some improvment in the clearity. LSI9's in a small room. I think my sub is kind of fail and might be muddying up my mids. I can localize it too easily. Oh well sounds good eighther way just different. In my room I think my LSI9's go to like 35hz pretty solid. Not much music out there needs to go below 35hz imo. With the sub on and crossed over at lowest setting I can feel the bass more, which is really only good for parties not critical listening. I sure do love my LSI9's though they sound good regardless of sub or no sub lol.

Face

Unless you have a very clean sounding sub, such as a Velodyne SPL series, you're probably doing more harm than good in a two channel rig.

That's why I chose Tannoy HPD's in my 2 channel rig. Their 15" woofers will fill most rooms with more bass than you'll ever need.

SolidSqual

Face wrote: »

Unless you have a very clean sounding sub, such as a Velodyne SPL series, you're probably doing more harm than good in a two channel rig.

That's why I chose Tannoy HPD's in my 2 channel rig. Their 15" woofers will fill most rooms with more bass than you'll ever need.

I agree with this thinking. 2 channel is 2.0 as far as I"m concerned.

fatchowmein

What type of music are you guys listening to in 2 channel? I find I prefer Diana Krall without my sub (Outlaw LFM-1 Plus) but I like 2.1 with classical music, especially symphonies and organ music. This is with LSi15's.

But, as was previously mentioned, I don't exactly have a high end sub but it is (finally) blended in and I can no longer localize it.

Early B.

If you're not grabbing every ounce of bass that the source has to offer, then you're not hearing all of the music. That's like reading a bunch of novels with the exception of the final chapter, then claiming that the endings aren't important to the stories.

Face

My mains are tuned to 35 hz and will play down to 30 hz. I don't listen to organ music, so I don't believe I'm missing much, if anything at all.

Serendipity

My sub is tuned very well for music. It's a 15" Dayton Titanic MKIII with the Dayton Reference plate amp, in a small < 3 cu. ft sealed enclosure and damped very well. It's not a HT sub by any means, in fact I would say it's "quiet" for the most part and detailed.

schwarcw

Early B. wrote: »

If you're not grabbing every ounce of bass that the source has to offer, then you're not hearing all of the music. That's like reading a bunch of novels with the exception of the final chapter, then claiming that the endings aren't important to the stories.

I'm with you EB. The type of speakers you have, their position in the room relative to the walls and other acoustic characteristics of your room will dictate how much sub you will need. A pair of monitors on stands will usually need more help than say a floor standing speaker. When the sub is dialed in right, it will only capture the bass your speakers are missing. The position of the sub in the room is also important as to not "bloat" the bass. Getting the overall balance can be difficult. I suspect that in most instances when the sub muddled the mids or bloated the bass there were probably a combination of room acoustics and/or not having the sub positioned or blended correctly with the main speakers.

The only speakers I ever heard that did not need even a little help were the Carver Amazing Platinum MK IV's.

Early B.

Face wrote: »

My mains are tuned to 35 hz and will play down to 30 hz. I don't listen to organ music, so I don't believe I'm missing much, if anything at all.

Trust me -- you're missing some music. Some soudstage, too. Don't believe the hype about hertz and not needing the lowest octaves for music.

Early B.

appadv wrote: »

My sub is tuned very well for music. It's a 15" Dayton Titanic MKIII with the Dayton Reference plate amp, in a small < 3 cu. ft sealed enclosure and damped very well. It's not a HT sub by any means, in fact I would say it's "quiet" for the most part and detailed.

You have a very good subwoofer, so no problems there. It's gotta be a setup problem. To diagnose the issue, I'd begin with your mains.

TroyD

I've owned a few pretty stellar speakers for reproducing bass (Amazings (2pr), AR9's and 2.3tl's).....great speakers but my preference is for a full range ESL. No, I don't have the bass impact that the above speakers do. No, probably am missing a few notes at the bottom. Would I trade those few cycles at the bottom for the transparency, coherence and purity of the Quads??

Not on your life.

Bass is important but it's not, IMO, the only defining factor.

BDT

treitz3

Hated it.

Early B.

The assumption many people make is that you have to give up transparency, definition, etc. in order to benefit from the deepest bass. When I added stereo subs, I got more midrange magic, not less.

treitz3

Lower frequencies [properly executed] can really make the midrange shine.

tonyb

I dunno.......for me anyway,a decent sub,a decent musical sub for 2 channel,is north of 2 g's,why not spend it on upgrading the speaks? HT is another animal but 2 channel,I would rather upgrade the speakers.

TroyD

Early B. wrote: »

The assumption many people make is that you have to give up transparency, definition, etc. in order to benefit from the deepest bass. When I added stereo subs, I got more midrange magic, not less.

I'm not saying that at all. All things being equal, sure, more bass might be a good thing (your room might have something to do with this too as integrating subs isn't as simple as plug and play).

What I am saying is that I'm not going to sell my soul for a few extra hz that may or may not be there. Second, there aren't many subs that integrate well with electrostats or planars in general for a number of reasons. Third, even adding more surface area as quad has done with the 989/2905 hasn't been universally accepted as an improvement over the originals.

BDT

Gaara

Get some test tones and measure your response with and without the sub. I just took my SVS out of the 2ch loop, I could not get it to integrate properly due to phase issues. People often make the mistake and think that because one frequency is in phase between the sub/mains they all are, this is not true. A sub can many times do more harm then good, adding a lot to a small range but taking away so much more.

As for the low bass comments, its all true from my experience and measurements. I setup a sub in my PC rig with a brick wall filter at 40hz and everything calibrated flat. I turned off my mains and just listened to the sub...it rarely came on at all. I tried out 2-3 tracks from various cds in my collection, only 3 tracks out of 20-25 that I tried had info below 40hz. When I changed the settings to 30hz only 1 track had info that low.

madmax

You really should never hear a sub anyway if it is set up properly and functioning correctly. However, most people set them up a little too loud for the impact and wow factor. If it makes enough difference to debate on then it is probably too loud.

pearsall001

Early B. wrote: »

If you're not grabbing every ounce of bass that the source has to offer, then you're not hearing all of the music. That's like reading a bunch of novels with the exception of the final chapter, then claiming that the endings aren't important to the stories.

Early, I'm with you all the way on this one. I was a true sub snob for years...I don't need one, they're all boomy, they don't blend in. Well that's all total nonsense. Once you get over your fear of using a sub, & by that I mean spending time to dial it in properly, you'll experience a new found musical presence that a box speaker just can't produce. And it's not just about how low you "think" your speakers are hitting.

I had a few subs for HT & never liked them for 2 channel either. The sub I'm running now, a Velo SPL-1200R made me totally change my opinion on using a sub for 2 channel listening. It replaced an SVS 25-31 cylinder sub. No contest there. With a good sub, proper room placement & dialed in correctly...well it just doesn't get any better than that.

amulford

And I quote:

"There is no substitute for radiating surface area and a real man's amp"

I do listen to some organ music on occasion. I have also listened to some other very eclectic recordings where low and deep bass was integral to the music. Trying to get a seperate component to seemlessly blend is hard to do, but worth it.

I'm glad I don't have to...

Gaara

pearsall001 wrote: »

And it's not just about how low you "think" your speakers are hitting.

With a good sub, proper room placement & dialed in correctly...well it just doesn't get any better than that.

Don't agree with the first point, I don't think my speakers can hit low, I know from my own measurements that they are solid down to 22hz. I do agree with your second point though, a musical sub that is dialed in correctly and positioned well does add a lot to the experience.

Appadv, that Dayton is a good sub it should be able to blend well. As I said before, get some test tones and measure your response, there is probably a issue that could be resolved with better placement, phase adjustment, or eq.

steveinaz

I experienced the same thing, and sold my SVS. I had the sub calibrated, and the sweeps were very good, but I just didn't like it with music. Subs are cool for movies, but I don't care for them in 2 channel music.

Hawkeye

As I move up the 2 channel audio food chain, I'm finding a sub becoming a possibly unneeded piece in my system. Amps, speakers, sources and room treatments have all had a huge impact on the bass. I've noticed that as I've upgraded, the volume control on the sub has had to be turned down to maintain a seemless transition.

My speakers are advertised to go down to 34 Hz. I've had to adjust my crossover on the sub down to 30 Hz. While there is something there below that in a HT set up, I don't think there is much in straight music. On the other hand, the sub has somehow reenforced the the mid bass and given some depth and strength to the overall presentation.

So, I think it all comes down to the individuals likes and dislikes. There is no right or wrong, only what we like. I do believe that when I upgrade my speakers next year, the sub will likely be sold or put in my HT.

Gordon

steveinaz

I can see using a sub with compact speakers, but with nearly full range towers I think you need to select a very "musical" sub that will dig deep without any ill side-effects. My towers are down 9dB at 25Hz, and the -3dB point is at 30Hz, that's low enough for me.

Fongolio

I use my RTiA7's without the subs on 2 channel and with the subs on HT. On two channel with the turntables full sonic range they don't need any help. With movies etc. the extra low end kick really brings movies to life. The A7's are about 6 months old now and sound fantastic.

Serendipity

Hmm...

I have my sub set so low where you can't "hear" the sub. It's almost at minimum on the gain (8:00), and it's approximately -6db lower than the mains.

But I noticed something today that bothered me. With the sub on and no material playing, I could still detect the presence of a sub in the room. Turning the sub off changed the "silence" of the room. Isn't that odd?

madmax

Can you see the cone moving when quiet?

Serendipity

madmax wrote: »

Can you see the cone moving when quiet?

No, but I can definitely walk into the room (total silence) and know that the sub is on. It's like walking into a room with fluorescent lights on - you can hear the ballast sometimes.

tonyb

Do you have a low level hum in the sub? If so,possible ground loop problem,bad cable etc.