Holy grail for $19.95?

tugboat

So if I'm to get this correct, the cable used can change the quality of sound transmitted digitally? How exactly can it do that? If the digital music is transmitted in packets, and a packet gets "lost," you will get a dropout until the decoder can get back in sync. If it's PCM and bits get "lost," you will hear error correction trying to cover up the loss or just a noise if there is no error correction. For a sound quality difference between coax or optical to happen, the cable itself would have to decode and then re-encode the data as it passes through it to change the sound.

If I were to follow this line of logic, then using the wrong brand of cable on my hard drive could change the data inside my spreadsheet, change the colors in my photos, etc?

I know this will probably upset a few people, but until someone can actually capture the data stream in real time and compare the two cable types side by side and show that the data arrives different than what was sent and that difference actually equals sound improvement and not an error in transmisstion, I'm sticking to my training that digital is digital and as long as the bits get to their destination in the same order they were sent, the cable type doesn't matter. A 1 is a 1 and a 0 is a 0.

Thanks

zingo

You make some good points tugboat, but I would challenge you to listen for yourself. Find a friend and a few different makes of digital ICs and give it a blind test.

I am a full believer in science, but I think the human ear is more sensitive and precise then we give it credit for.

tugboat

zingo wrote: »

You make some good points tugboat, but I would challenge you to listen for yourself. Find a friend and a few different makes of digital ICs and give it a blind test.

I am a full believer in science, but I think the human ear is more sensitive and precise then we give it credit for.

I've spent my share of money on cables of the years. I've tried opticals from a number of makers and have settled on the basic ones from monoprice. I've also tried a number of coax cables and compared them to the opticals. I heard no difference. Of course cables do make a big difference when the runs are long and interference is high.

I wonder if I try to get the facts out of system engineers for some of the larger manufacturers, if they'd answer or avoid causing waves with the cable makers of this world. I guess it couldn't hurt to try.

Thanks for the input. Not here to upset, just find some facts.

Face

tugboat wrote: »

I've spent my share of money on cables of the years. I've tried opticals from a number of makers and have settled on the basic ones from monoprice. I've also tried a number of coax cables and compared them to the opticals. I heard no difference. Of course cables do make a big difference when the runs are long and interference is high.

I wonder if I try to get the facts out of system engineers for some of the larger manufacturers, if they'd answer or avoid causing waves with the cable makers of this world. I guess it couldn't hurt to try.

Thanks for the input. Not here to upset, just find some facts.

Sans cables making a difference over long runs or when interference is high, you stated your experiences and your opinions, not factual data. I can hear the difference between a optical and coax cable in my rig, others have also. As they say, your mileage may vary.

tugboat

Face wrote: »

Sans cables making a difference over long runs or when interference is high, you stated your experiences and your opinions, not factual data. I can hear the difference between a optical and coax cable in my rig, others have also. As they say, your mileage may vary.

I guess what I'm really looking for here is proof that one digital cable over another can make a noticable difference is sound. Something backed up by a test that can be duplicated. And an explination of how that difference in cable brand/type was able to change the sonic quality of digital music. I have read many threads and none have actually shown results of testing the data streams. They mainly focus on testing the electrical properties of the cable. Isn't there a device for digital audio like a sniffer used in computer networks?

zingo

Well tugboat, good luck with that.
There are a lot of topics in audio that are highly debated and may not have "scientific" data to back the findings (cable effects, speaker break-in, vinyl vs. digital, etc.). Even though I am fiercely scientific in the way I think and approach topic, I have started to let a little of that slide in my audio life because I like the way things sound. My bottom line these days is the joy the music brings to me and the equipment that reproduces that. I understand your drive for an explanation for everything, but I'm not sure your going to find it. And even if you do, it's not going to end to many debates, and proof will be basically impossible. As an audiophile, in the end it's about the music, and I sometimes get near-sided and forget that.

tugboat

zingo wrote: »

Well tugboat, good luck with that.
There are a lot of topics in audio that are highly debated and may not have "scientific" data to back the findings (cable effects, speaker break-in, vinyl vs. digital, etc.). Even though I am fiercely scientific in the way I think and approach topic, I have started to let a little of that slide in my audio life because I like the way things sound. My bottom line these days is the joy the music brings to me and the equipment that reproduces that. I understand your drive for an explanation for everything, but I'm not sure your going to find it. And even if you do, it's not going to end to many debates, and proof will be basically impossible. As an audiophile, in the end it's about the music, and I sometimes get near-sided and forget that.

That's why I like to sit back with my Pioneer SX-1080, PL-115D TT and 1.2TLs and live in the analog world for as long as I can get away with it. With my vintage gear, no one really questions my use of '70s patch cords (yes, I wrote patch cords and not interconnects....).

ben62670

No amp, and cheesy patch cables. You should be ashamed. Let those TL's sing!

zingo

I agree with Ben; what's your scientific explanation for underpowering 1.2TLs?

Face

I'd like to hear his reasoning why transports can sound different. Aren't they just reading 0's and 1's?

As for the TL's, it's a shame to own a pair and to have never really heard them.

steveinaz

- Vibration isolation
- Error correction circuitry quality
- Servo quality
- Better power supply
- More direct circuit running
- Better quality op amps

...Just like anything electronic, better quality components usually result in a better transport. It's not voodoo or rocket science, just plain better build.

tugboat

ben62670 wrote: »

No amp, and cheesy patch cables. You should be ashamed. Let those TL's sing!

The Pioneer can feed them roughly 140wpc. I rarely use more than 10wpc anyway. My denon feeds them with 200wpc and other than a tonal quailty change, they seem to be doing just fine. So when did 140wpc of clean power become under-powering?

tugboat

Face wrote: »

I'd like to hear his reasoning why transports can sound different. Aren't they just reading 0's and 1's?

As for the TL's, it's a shame to own a pair and to have never really heard them.

When I took these off the hands of a friend, they were connected to Parasound mono amps. If I remember correctly, they were rated at over 400wpc into 8ohms. They sounded great. So I know what they sound like. They sound just fine with my 200wpc Denon and 140wpc Pioneer.

tugboat

steveinaz wrote: »

- Vibration isolation
- Error correction circuitry quality
- Servo quality
- Better power supply
- More direct circuit running
- Better quality op amps

...Just like anything electronic, better quality components usually result in a better transport. It's not voodoo or rocket science, just plain better build.

Do you know of any piece of software that can capture the stream going into the digital input of a sound card and then compare it against the source? Something like that would be great for testing cable brand, type and length.

phuz

tugboat wrote: »

So if I'm to get this correct, the cable used can change the quality of sound transmitted digitally? How exactly can it do that? If the digital music is transmitted in packets, and a packet gets "lost," you will get a dropout until the decoder can get back in sync. If it's PCM and bits get "lost," you will hear error correction trying to cover up the loss or just a noise if there is no error correction. For a sound quality difference between coax or optical to happen, the cable itself would have to decode and then re-encode the data as it passes through it to change the sound.

If I were to follow this line of logic, then using the wrong brand of cable on my hard drive could change the data inside my spreadsheet, change the colors in my photos, etc?

I know this will probably upset a few people, but until someone can actually capture the data stream in real time and compare the two cable types side by side and show that the data arrives different than what was sent and that difference actually equals sound improvement and not an error in transmisstion, I'm sticking to my training that digital is digital and as long as the bits get to their destination in the same order they were sent, the cable type doesn't matter. A 1 is a 1 and a 0 is a 0.

Thanks

Very good questions, and you're thinking the way I'm thinking. I'm a network/computer geek/professional, so when it comes to digital transmission I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around a "best" cable being better than a "good" cable or how it can affect sound quality.

If there is a need for error correction then one of two things will happen:

1. The error will be so bad that the audio will drop out until everything syncs back up again. Try playing with an optical cable and inserting just the fiber portion until you hear music being played, then remove it or move it around.

2. The error will be corrected within milliseconds (read: re-transmitted as packets to the buffer) and no data is "lost".

phuz

tugboat wrote: »

Do you know of any piece of software that can capture the stream going into the digital input of a sound card and then compare it against the source? Something like that would be great for testing cable brand, type and length.

One might be able to do something like this with a soundcard to soundcard connection. PC to PC. Youd' have to really break down the protocol stack and figure it out. I can't say if a digital audio interface has a MAC address or what. If so any layer 2 sniffer might do it.

steveinaz

tugboat wrote: »

Do you know of any piece of software that can capture the stream going into the digital input of a sound card and then compare it against the source? Something like that would be great for testing cable brand, type and length.

I don't. Reputable 75ohm cables have full specifications available; impedance, resistance, type of shielding, gauge, Gigahertz sweep testing, etc.

steveinaz

phuz wrote: »

If there is a need for error correction then one of two things will happen:

1. The error will be so bad that the audio will drop out until everything syncs back up again. Try playing with an optical cable and inserting just the fiber portion until you hear music being played, then remove it or move it around.

2. The error will be corrected within milliseconds (read: re-transmitted as packets to the buffer) and no data is "lost".

Very true, error correction is either audbile, or it's not--it's that simple. If you don't hear it, it didn't happen. Though some transports correct errors far better than others.

steveinaz

With digital cables it's about minimizing the cables presence. Better spec'd cables are better at "getting out of the way" so to speak. In my opinion, digital cables should be selected for their performance abilities, analog cables for their tonal characteristics--if you believe such things. Think of analog cables like very fine tone controls.

All of this is strictly my opinion, based on my personal experience. I'm not an electrical engineer, nor am I a DAC guru by any stretch of the imagination; but I do hear differences in analog, and digital cables, and I have heard differences in transports. I once tried my Denon DVD-2910 as transport vs my CEC CD Player; I preferred the CEC by a significant margin. The CEC was smoother, more 3 dimensional; the Denon got brittle at high volumes, and had a flatter soundstage.