Satellites vs. Floorstanders

gte697h

Hi! I was wondering if anyone had an opinion on whether Floorstanders were better than satellites? For what I've demoed at Circuit City, it seemed like the floorstanders provide better directional bass than a satellites + subwoofer combo.

Specifications for my setup are, small room, 5.1 home theater, onkyo 705 receiver. Any opinions on pros and cons of satellites vs. floorstanders would be appreciated!

Dennis Gardner

Basically a minitruck/fullsize debate..............depends on how big of job you need done.

Early B.

What are your room dimensions?

Midnite Mick

I have really been liking a lot of 2 way floorstanders lately.

zingo

Midnite Mick wrote: »

I have really been liking a lot of 2 way floorstanders lately.

I agree. I have really been blown away by some two-way two driver floorstands and bookshelves. There is something to be said for simplicity.

ben62670

Some good sized floor standers. No need for brackets. You can place them off the back wall for better SQ. They just have way more oomph than satellites. Keep in mind if you go large on floor standers you may need to improve amplification. Don't be shay about asking here before you buy.
Ben

pearsall001

Just remember...no bass from a pair of floorstanders will beat a dedicated sub.

Quality monitors & a great sub are the combo that can't be beat.

Midnite Mick

zingo wrote: »

I agree. I have really been blown away by some two-way two driver floorstands and bookshelves. There is something to be said for simplicity.

Coherence!
Coherence!
Coherence!

makes for sound nice.:)

pearsall001

Hey Mike, a little off topic but Stephen at Quest just took on the Acoustic Zen line. I'm going to get my ears on them as soon as they arrive. Mainly interested in the Adiago Jr's. A little competition for my AAD's

SlowcarIX

pearsall001 wrote: »

Just remember...no bass from a pair of floorstanders will beat a dedicated sub.

Quality monitors & a great sub are the combo that can't be beat.

+1

ben62670

Bass is directional. I had my big speakers up front, and used my RTA15RDO's as rears. Huge step up from sats. This required external amplification. Just an example if you had jets thundering up from behind you felt it coming from behind.

Midnite Mick

pearsall001 wrote: »

Hey Mike, a little off topic but Stephen at Quest just took on the Acoustic Zen line. I'm going to get my ears on them as soon as they arrive. Mainly interested in the Adiago Jr's. A little competition for my AAD's

The finish on them is purty. I am sure they will sound very good.

Mike

pearsall001

ben62670 wrote: »

Bass is directional. I had my big speakers up front, and used my RTA15RDO's as rears. Huge step up from sats. This required external amplification. Just an example if you had jets thundering up from behind you felt it coming from behind.

Not if you added more subs!

ben62670

pearsall001 wrote: »

Not if you added more subs!

Very rarely do I ever disagree with Phil, but there is always an exception. You can add as many subs as you want, but when the rears are sent a full signal it is not sent to the sub. I am talking about the localized bass that is recorded into most DTS tracks. What I am saying is if the jets are coming from behind you, and you have speakers that can belt out some good bass then you can hear/feel the bass transition coming from behind you, and seamlessly transferring to the front.

pearsall001

ben62670 wrote: »

Very rarely do I ever disagree with Phil, but there is always an exception. You can add as many subs as you want, but when the rears are sent a full signal it is not sent to the sub. I am talking about the localized bass that is recorded into most DTS tracks. What I am saying is if the jets are coming from behind you, and you have speakers that can belt out some good bass then you can hear/feel the bass transition coming from behind you, and seamlessly transferring to the front.

If you're running all speakers set to large than yes you are correct. However if you set all speakers to small & let the subs do what they do best...& let your FL do what they do best (and that ain't bass reproduction) I think the outcome might be a tad different. Just remember, there is no floorstander that can compete with a dedicated sub when it comes to bass performance.

Now your personal preference plays a big role here. As long as we enjoy our system, that's all that matters.

Music Joe

I know this is small speakers vs floorstanders...but I have this nifty article, just food for thought, and may be germaine in some way to the discussion.

An interesting sidebar in this months 5th Element column by John Marks titled "2.5 Cheers For Stand Mounted Speakers".
The article points out that stand mounted loudspeakers have an advantage coming out of the gate.

The article focused on wavelengths of 3 major internal resonances, wall to wall, side to side, top to bottom. An example cited was the 2 cubic foot BBC large monitor 24"x12"x12" yielding 3456 cubic inches. A top to bottom resonance of 282.5Hz, s2s of 565Hz, f2b of 565Hz.

A 2 cubic foot tall narrow floorstanding cabinet by design starts out with a hurdle. At about H42"xW6"xD13.71" with a top to bottom resonance of about 161Hz, s2s of 1130Hz, f2b of 494Hz.

That 161 is low enough to be difficult to deal with. John Marks aticle says that even 6" of fiberglass or wool would have little effect. And that the 161 would effect "clarity and intelligibility". That in turn would need to be egineered around at extra cost.

He points out that in comparision the BBC was a large stand mount, and typical short stand mounted would have much higher (Hz) internal resonances if built decent.

Many a time I've heard an overall coherence from small stand mounteds that just sticks with me.

I'm no engineer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express

ben62670

pearsall001 wrote: »

If you're running all speakers set to large than yes you are correct. However if you set all speakers to small & let the subs do what they do best...& let your FL do what they do best (and that ain't bass reproduction) I think the outcome might be a tad different. Just remember, there is no floorstander that can compete with a dedicated sub when it comes to bass performance.

Now your personal preference plays a big role here. As long as we enjoy our system, that's all that matters.

You have seen my sonosub I'm sure, so I am not saying that anyone should omit a decicated sub, but full range speakers all the way around is the cats meow;)

Midnite Mick

Of what I have heard I find 2 way floorstanders to be superior to a 2 way bookshelf. I find a lot of book shelfs that go deep to sound muddy to me.

treitz3

gte697h wrote: »

Hi! I was wondering if anyone had an opinion on whether Floor standers were better than satellites?

To me? That's the most loaded question of the year. It SO totally depends on what your musical genre is and how loud you listen to it, what your room dimensions are, not to mention what you have feeding it. Then there is that question that might throw a wrench into things....do you want a sub?

Answer this, we can move on.

OmegaSupreme

I have a 12x12x8 bedroom 5.1 used mostly for movies and I went with the medium size Energy C5 fronts due to small room and have a 300W subwoofer and rti4s for surrounds and a medium sized B&W center. Love the sound. To me it seems like a good amount of sound that definately fills the room and doesn't take up too much space. Using large bookshelf type speakers along with two subs can probably work great though. I say use floorstanders if possible and small satellites only when absolutely necessary. And don't use a small center speaker. And, and stay away from Bose. Muahahaha...

reeltrouble1

Introduction of a sub pretty much sucks for a musical system, you need them for HT. If you have speakers which can dig to 30hz you are pretty much set, even at 40hz you are not missing much if any bass in most recordings. If you just want to hear bass, well, disconnect your tweeters and mids j/k. Adding a sub to music to boost the bass signal is the same as cranking a tone control. If loud bass is your thing then go for it and enjoy.

You see when you add a sub your adding another connect or wires, you have a different crossover, another volume pot, your typical sub plate amp is no musical wonder, your amp slope/slew rates are different, you have different speaker material/design, different caps/resistors, introduction of a different pcb board with who knows what type of circuits but generally they are on the low end, none of this good news for an audio signal, then you have to place the sub and dont buy into the non-directional hype about sub waves, you can and will be able to tell where they are coming from. Sometimes a sub is a necessary compromise because of room configs, waf, and so on, but it is a compromise to any musical rig.

Whether you choose b/s or floorstander for your music system is simply a matter of taste.

RT1

tonyb

Well said from the depths of the "woodshed".:)

jm1

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

Introduction of a sub pretty much sucks for a musical system, you need them for HT. If you have speakers which can dig to 30hz you are pretty much set, even at 40hz you are not missing much if any bass in most recordings. If you just want to hear bass, well, disconnect your tweeters and mids j/k. Adding a sub to music to boost the bass signal is the same as cranking a tone control. If loud bass is your thing then go for it and enjoy.

You see when you add a sub your adding another connect or wires, you have a different crossover, another volume pot, your typical sub plate amp is no musical wonder, your amp slope/slew rates are different, you have different speaker material/design, different caps/resistors, introduction of a different pcb board with who knows what type of circuits but generally they are on the low end, none of this good news for an audio signal, then you have to place the sub and dont buy into the non-directional hype about sub waves, you can and will be able to tell where they are coming from. Sometimes a sub is a necessary compromise because of room configs, waf, and so on, but it is a compromise to any musical rig.

Whether you choose b/s or floorstander for your music system is simply a matter of taste.

RT1

WOW! I'm certainly glad I don't share your philosophy on this subject. I might not have ended up with the Dynaudio C1 monitors, dbx active crossover and two SVS PC-Ultra subs in my system.

Without question, there is certainly more to selecting and integrating a sub within a music system than just placing it in the room and expecting it to sound good. This take some initial knowledge and experimentation, but the end results are outstanding if you are able to integrate the two.

Midnite Mick

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

Introduction of a sub pretty much sucks for a musical system, you need them for HT. If you have speakers which can dig to 30hz you are pretty much set, even at 40hz you are not missing much if any bass in most recordings. If you just want to hear bass, well, disconnect your tweeters and mids j/k. Adding a sub to music to boost the bass signal is the same as cranking a tone control. If loud bass is your thing then go for it and enjoy.

You see when you add a sub your adding another connect or wires, you have a different crossover, another volume pot, your typical sub plate amp is no musical wonder, your amp slope/slew rates are different, you have different speaker material/design, different caps/resistors, introduction of a different pcb board with who knows what type of circuits but generally they are on the low end, none of this good news for an audio signal, then you have to place the sub and dont buy into the non-directional hype about sub waves, you can and will be able to tell where they are coming from. Sometimes a sub is a necessary compromise because of room configs, waf, and so on, but it is a compromise to any musical rig.

Whether you choose b/s or floorstander for your music system is simply a matter of taste.

RT1

I am not all that knowledgeable how one incorporates a sub but does this assume that you are running your mains through the sub as well? What if the sub has nothing to do with the mains and your preamp has separate output RCA's for the sub. Can't you cross the sub at the appropriate point and play with the phase. etc.?

I mean if your mains are flat down to 40hz or so can't just have the sub fill in the bottom octave?

mantis

zingo wrote: »

I agree. I have really been blown away by some two-way two driver floorstands and bookshelves. There is something to be said for simplicity.

Less crossover points. Crossovers is what kills speaker performance.

reeltrouble1

yes jm quite a shame actually since if you did you would have Dyn's Focus 220's or the Contour S 5.4's say oooh la la, l know, I am completely impossible.;)

RT1

jm1

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

yes jm quite a shame actually since if you did you would have Dyn's Focus 220's or the Contour S 5.4's say oooh la la, l know, I am completely impossible.;)

RT1

No thanks! I will take the C1's any day as they provide a significant level of refinement well beyond the two you indicate. Sadly, this gives me more insight into the erroneous perception of monitor/sub configurations.

I have also listened to the C4's and have no inclination to upgrade from the monitor/sub configuration I currently utilize.

pearsall001

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

Introduction of a sub pretty much sucks for a musical system, you need them for HT. If you have speakers which can dig to 30hz you are pretty much set, even at 40hz you are not missing much if any bass in most recordings. If you just want to hear bass, well, disconnect your tweeters and mids j/k. Adding a sub to music to boost the bass signal is the same as cranking a tone control. If loud bass is your thing then go for it and enjoy.

You see when you add a sub your adding another connect or wires, you have a different crossover, another volume pot, your typical sub plate amp is no musical wonder, your amp slope/slew rates are different, you have different speaker material/design, different caps/resistors, introduction of a different pcb board with who knows what type of circuits but generally they are on the low end, none of this good news for an audio signal, then you have to place the sub and dont buy into the non-directional hype about sub waves, you can and will be able to tell where they are coming from. Sometimes a sub is a necessary compromise because of room configs, waf, and so on, but it is a compromise to any musical rig.

Whether you choose b/s or floorstander for your music system is simply a matter of taste.

RT1

Remember that old saying: "What you don't know...won't hurt you" Well that certainly applies here. For those that are happy with the incomplete performance of their floorstandres...they don't know, therefore they'll never reach that pinacle of music reproduction.

Now for those who do know...a monitor/sub combo or adding a sub to your floorstanders is the only way to reach the true musical presentation in it's entirety. And it's not just about hitting down to 20Hz, not even close. There's a lot more to it than that. No if and's or but's about it. And who said anything about playing loud? Bass is a lot more complex than that & volumn is a non issue. Thare's a whole new music foundation just waiting to be discovered. You can only find it with a sub. Sorry, floorstanders need not apply for this job.

And that mumbo jumbo about extra cables, inferior amps, crossovers, slew rates, yadda, yadda is the biggest bunch of poo-who BS!

If one is satisfied with sub (no pun intended) par floorstander performance...by all means, carry on.

But I want to relish in all the glory of the music...so bring on the sub!!

In the end it's all about the music, & a floorstander isn't going to get you there...not by a long shot.

reeltrouble1

Midnite Mick wrote: »

I am not all that knowledgeable how one incorporates a sub but does this assume that you are running your mains through the sub as well? What if the sub has nothing to do with the mains and your preamp has separate output RCA's for the sub. Can't you cross the sub at the appropriate point and play with the phase. etc.?

I mean if your mains are flat down to 40hz or so can't just have the sub fill in the bottom octave?

sure you can, I do just that for my RTT, works great for HT the Polk CSW's are awesome boomers and you should cross around 80hz. The benefit of the loud booming noises outweighs the compromise of the signal for HT and the Polks are customed EQ'd with the Polk SWA500 sub amp.

To answer your question, No, the signal is compromised (degraded) whether its sent first to the sub then to the mains or to the sub out, any electrical circuit/connection can only take away from the signal. The sub just amplifies the signal and plays it, of course its been degraded a bit. No matter how you spin it when integrating a sub you must introduce more variables to the audio signal, still not good news.

RT1

treitz3

Unless you have an SMS-1.

reeltrouble1

well I guess you can sum it up Phil by saying that a good little man (satellite) can beat a bad big man (floorstander), but a good little man can never beat a good big man.

long live the floorstander!!!!!!!!!!!!

of course the OP is now totally confused and we went from Circuit City to Esoteric, but it is what we do.:eek:

RT1