One last amp/watt question

demaples

Hello all,
don't want to start an uproar, just one last straight forward question about how many watts are enough to push an all LSi speaker system. I realize the Onkyo 805wont do the trick even though Onkyo says it puts out 280 watts at 4 ohms, so what is the least through a good amp without hurting the LSis? I don't need 500 watts just what is the minimum? Thanks in advance.
Dennis

ben62670

"One last amp/watt question"
No it won't.
I hate to sound like a lemming here, but 200wpc from a good company will satisfy nearly anyone.

dkg999

The problem is that wpc is just one part of the equation. Many other factors are significant in the AVR amp section vs separate amp discussion. If you are going to make your amp choice based on wpc, then try to get close to 200 wpc (oh god I said it ) from a reputable manufacturer such as Adcom, Parasound, B&K, Sunfire, Marsh, Marantz, etc. Unless you're in a huge open space, and/or trying to drive to very high volume levels, my guess is a 120 to 150 wpc amp from those same manufacturers will do the job.

demaples

Thanks Ben, that is what I needed to know. I'm watching Audiogon for a decent 7 channel and that answers my question. I've looked at a new Outlaw 7200, and some used Emotiva, B&K, Sunfire, Sherbourne and Lexicon for a few. 200 watts or better then is what I'm looking for. When I find one I'll most likely need advice on connectivity.
Thank you.
Dennis

cfrizz

Look for an amp that puts out 200wpc @8ohms. All the companies that DK listed above make quality gear.

All you will need are 7 IC's to go from amp to receiver's preouts.

demaples

Hi cfrizz,
so you are saying 200 watts at 8 ohms equates to roughly twice that at 4 ohms which is what I'm seeing in the specs of most. So no one recommends the Outlaw 7200 here?
Dennis

cfrizz

Yup that's what I'm saying. The more you give them at 8 is the more they will give you & sound better at 4.

I had an Outlaw monoblock & liked it just fine. If the price is right for you get it.

demaples

Awesome!!! I'm a quick study.. sometimes.... Thanks so much for the help. Hmmm, after I get the amp I can look for another set of LSi's for the sides!
Dennis

ben62670

There are a couple Adcom 7500's on Ebay right now. To me these were the last of the better Adcom multicahannels out there. They do 225 at 4 ohms.
http://www.adcom.com/data/manuals/gfa_7500manual.pdf
These were rated with realistic performance specs, and not measuring distortion at 1khz, and .1%. The headroom, and dampening factor are very high on these. I don't go by the manufacturers advertising specs I try to dig a little deeper. You could either get a nice 2 channel to match it, or what I would do is run it with the receiver taking care of the surround backs. Receivers get slammed kinda hard here for lack of power, but when you take the load off them, and just use a few channels they keep up plenty fine. If you aren't happy with the receiver taking care of the SB channels you can always upgrade. I had the 7500, and it is a great amp. You should be able to find one for $600 or less + shipping. You don't have to spend a fortune to get seriously good performance.
Ben

zingo

I have the Outlaw 7100 and it does 165wpc at 4 ohms. Its a great amp and can be had new or used for a great price.

tonyb

That Cinova in the FS section was made for this very thing.Why did you pass on it?

be83663

Here is another e-mail reply I got a while ago from Mr. Brian Florian who reviewed Onkyo 805 and replied to my e-mail. I just thought this might help demaples know a little more about what different specs mean, just like it helped me too!

Mr. Brian Florian wrote: "My point with the Onkyo is that the overall power delivered to either 8 or 4ohm loads is roughly the same so its not whether the speaker is 4 or 8 ohm which matters, but rather how efficient is it. No one should say that the 805 is “not powerful enough” to drive 4ohm speakers, but one might say it is not powerful enough to drive inefficient speakers".

In my own words from here: So, my point is that if one can afford it, then by all means, one should go ahead and buy a separate amp to drive all channels at a lot of power simultaneously, because I don't doubt that separate amps will have better sound quality than a receiver overall, either for music or movie. But since I am on a limited budget (as shown by my ordering of two pairs of LSi9's, one LSiC, a pair of LSiFX for my 7 speaker set-up from Highdecibels.com 10 days ago, and still have not received them; which I had expected), and since I will watch a movie at a moderate volume level, someone like myself can think about relying on a very nice receiver instead, for a 7.1 LSi set-up. I know that with a nice separate amp with 265 wpc (or even 140 wpc) @4-ohms, all seven channels driven, low THD, and high S/N ratio, for example, I can have a quality loud listening instead.

I did some research on three receivers: B&K AVR 507 S2 ($3,300, 2 years out on the market), Arcam AVR300 ($2,000, 2 years), and Onkyo TX-NR905 ($2,000, 8 months). Considering that Onkyo is a mass-production company that is more flexible at selling their products at lower price, I think their $2,000 belies their true performance compared to other higher-end brands whose lower supply-and-demand won't allow their price to go down substantially, and thus Onkyo TX-NR905 is comparable to the other two receivers mentioned above for my use, but at the lowest possible price! I can get the Onkyo TX-NR905 for $1,500 from Beach Audio. If I can sell my current Onkyo TX-SR805 for around $600, then I am getting a good receiver with a toroidal transformer and two separate transformers for audio and video processing for about $900 (which I believe the other two receivers mentioned above also have, and thus make them great receivers!). I also did a research on amps for under $1,000; and could only find Emotiva for $800 for 5-channels for 350 wpc, but their S/N ratio wasn't as impressive as Anthem's. I will just buy Onkyo TX-NR905 for now, and when I move to my own house in the future after having saved more money, I will buy Anthem Statement series P5 ($5,000) and P2 ($2,500) or the likes for my 7.1 set-up, using Onkyo TX-NR905 as a pre-amp then. I don't want to have a credit card debt now!

tonyb

{Banks head against wall}

Your not getting it dude.

Gaara

demaples wrote: »

I realize the Onkyo 805wont do the trick even though Onkyo says it puts out 280 watts at 4 ohms, so what is the least through a good amp without hurting the LSis?

Honestly you guys gotta learn how to read specs, where on earth is that # coming from? I'm looking at the site and it says it will output 250watts peak with only 1ch driven...so the max power it could ever output with only 1 4ohm speaker hooked up is 250watts. Not to mention looking at the manual it turns out the 130wpc spec is bs to, its only 2chs driven. I wouldn't be surprised if this thing only had double digit output.

be, I guess my advice never sunk in, ohwell. Good luck with highdecibels.com there have been a few threads one just last week about how this place is a scam, I guess you didn't do much research on that front either. I hope you used a credit card for your sake.

ben62670

be83663 wrote: »

Here is another e-mail reply I got a while ago from Mr. Brian Florian who reviewed Onkyo 805 and replied to my e-mail. I just thought this might help demaples know a little more about what different specs mean, just like it helped me too!

Mr. Brian Florian wrote: "My point with the Onkyo is that the overall power delivered to either 8 or 4ohm loads is roughly the same so its not whether the speaker is 4 or 8 ohm which matters, but rather how efficient is it. No one should say that the 805 is “not powerful enough” to drive 4ohm speakers, but one might say it is not powerful enough to drive inefficient speakers".

And my words from here: So, my point is that if one can afford it, then by all means, one should go ahead and buy a separate amp to drive all channels at a lot of power simultaneously, because I don't doubt that separate amps will have better sound quality than a receiver overall, either for music or movie. But since I am on a limited budget, and will watch a movie at a moderate volume level, someone like me can think about relying on a very nice receiver instead, for a 7.1 LSi set-up. I know that with a nice separate amp with 265 wpc (or even 140 wpc) @4-ohms, all seven channels driven, low THD, and high S/N ratio, for example, I can have a quality loud listening instead.

My main listening is at home. This is where my high quality sound is important to me. That being said if you really want high quality sound in a car you don't use a head unit. They can drive speakers OK, but they are not anywhere near the quality of having a separate amp. Obviously he cares about SQ. If he didn't then the top of the line Polk's would have not been chosen. Humans need air, water, food, and shelter. McDonald's is food. Not very satisfying though is it. I have gone, and listened to the LSI lineup at stores, and was not impressed at all. They were driven by receivers. Not even at lower levels will many people be impressed with LSI's driven by a receiver. So be83663 till you have actually heard the difference yourself posting about what he should get does not help. People with experience have posted. I would tend to listen to people with experience than what someone says in a review. I was going to continue on, but if you can't figure it out from the advice given, and can't figure it out from using the search tool then you will never figure it out to you actually try it.

McLoki

Point is -

Will it drive an entire LSi home theater at moderate and perhaps even loud volumes? Of course it will.

Will the LSi's sound good driven from the Onkyo? Probably.

Will they sound better (as will most speakers) driven by an eternal amp? Yes. The LSi's are just more revieling than many other speakers I have heard and due to that, much more subject to showing off any weak links in the audio chain. If your AVR is the weak link, you will see a huge improvement by upgrading it to an external amp. If it is not, you will see a marginal improvement by upgrading. (that is true for all upgrades to your home theater).

Many who have LSi's on this site have external amps to drive them. Is it because nothing else would work? No. Is it because they sound better when hooked up that way? Probably.

Michael

be83663

Like I had said,

I know that with a nice separate amp with 265 wpc (or even 140 wpc) @4-ohms, all seven channels driven, low THD, and high S/N ratio, for example, I can have a quality loud listening instead.

I will just buy Onkyo TX-NR905 for now, and when I move to my own house in the future after having saved more money, I will buy Anthem Statement series P5 ($5,000) and P2 ($2,500), or the likes, for my 7.1 set-up, using Onkyo TX-NR905 as a pre-amp then!

I do thank you guys for teaching me things, so please don't be offended if I seem to not get your points!

tcrossma

That's all fine be, go ahead and do what you'd like. You've been given recommendations (that you're choosing to ignore for your own reasons), and there's nothing wrong with that. Your Onk will make sound come out of the speakers.

But you don't even have this thing in your possession yet and you're giving recommandations to others based only on reviews, reading, and your bias towards Onkyo. You don't even know how it sounds yet.

There's a lot of good advice being given regarding this topic, and I for one wish I had taken the advice myself instead of first buying my AVR and then rather quickly upgrading to an external amp to power my LSI's

ben62670

Hey guys I have a Corvette that needs to be powered, and I was looking to power it with a V6. Can you guys give me any recommendations, and if you do please don't feel irritated when I ignore your recommendations because I think that a V6 in a Corvette will drive it down the road fine:rolleyes:
Thanks Corvette guys.
Ben

be83663

ben62670 wrote: »

Hey guys I have a Corvette that needs to be powered, and I was looking to power it with a V6. Can you guys give me any recommendations, and if you do please don't feel irritated when I ignore your recommendations because I think that a V6 in a Corvette will drive it down the road fine:rolleyes:
Thanks Corvette guys.
Ben

Exactly, because I don't have enough money!

jakelm

I would even put a 100 watt external amp up against almost all of the "beast" 200w/chnl AVR's out there.

For the same money as the 905 you can get alot more.

demaples

I got the information I needed, thanks to all. No sense starting a dead horse kicking, head banging, name calling session, thanks to all.
Dennis

Gaara

be83663 wrote: »

I will just buy Onkyo TX-NR905 for now, and when I move to my own house in the future after having saved more money, I will buy Anthem Statement series P5 ($5,000) and P2 ($2,500), or the likes, for my 7.1 set-up, using Onkyo TX-NR905 as a pre-amp then!

I do thank you guys for teaching me things, so please don't be offended if I seem to not get your points!

Your still missing the point, the difference between the 805 and 905 is small while the difference between the 805 and a external amp is large. You said you could buy your 905 for $1500 and sell your 805 for $600, thats $900 to upgrade. You could get this Sunfire Cinema Grand which will sound drastically better and have 3x the output as your 905 yet cost less then $900 shipped.

Thats the point you seem to be missing, you can get a nice external amp which will blow away the 905 for the same amount of money if not less. You keep using extreme examples of 5k amps when no one is recommending them, you can get a 1k amp that will sound leaps and bounds better then what you have now. I won't repeat it again.

ben62670

be83663 wrote: »

Exactly, because I don't have enough money!

I hear you there. Thats why I drive an old Pontiac. That being said I wouldn't buy a Corvette, and drive it with a V6 either;)

reeltrouble1

be--enjoy your system its going to sound marvelous, Onkyo makes nice audio equipment.

RT1

djlogix

New to Polk and I don't have the LSi's. I did get a chance to audition them and they're a speaker asking for more then most can give it. I've had that Onkyo in my home briefly (Onkyo Rep brought it over) and it was extremely underpowered IMO. Even with my RTi10's with my Yamaha AVR I feel they're underpowered, one more reason I don't turn up the volume much. Most had to do with some of the knowledge of the guys here, everything else is just common sense. That and the fact I've seen more speakers die from lack of power, then more power.

I'd listen to what the guys have to say, no matter how biased or one sided you see it. Because if you cut and paste and take the overall message you'll see what's up and be just fine.

And I still like my Yamaha with my RTi10's.. *runs*

be83663

Thank you, Gaara for looking for an amp for me. I really appreciate it! But to give another car analogy, I would rather buy a new Honda Accord than a used BMW, even though I do have to sell my used Honda Civic (my used Onkyo TX-SR805) in order to do that and I don't like selling used items either, I will at least sell used ones; I am trying to upgrade to Onkyo TX-NR905 not because I am expecting an improvement in sound quality, but because I think it will handle the LSi series with a little less stress. I hope you understand that that's just my personal preference. I will get a new separate amp sometime in the future though, preferably 7-channel one that can power 300 or more wpc, like Emotiva XPA5 and XPA2 for about $1,900 total, but not now!

And I think I will like driving a new V6 Corvette rather than a Pontiac, because of its better aerodynamic and better-looking design. But I understand what you mean. Again, it's just my personal preference; so yes, there is someone like me!

Thank you everyone!

djlogix

What AVR do you have or plan on buying ? Because an AVR capable of all the "items" you want can be had for less, paired with an Emotiva XPA-5.

2 for 1

or 1 for 1 needing the other later down the road.

I'm not one for changing anyones mind, but you seem to be missing the overall point. You're going to be spending 2-3 times MORE then you should and could be right now. Especially considering you're selling your current AVR which sweetens your ability even more.

You could really just keep your current AVR and get a damn good amp. ::shrugs::

be83663

djlogix wrote: »

What AVR do you have or plan on buying ? Because an AVR capable of all the "items" you want can be had for less, paired with an Emotiva XPA-5.

2 for 1

or 1 for 1 needing the other later down the road.

I'm not one for changing anyones mind, but you seem to be missing the overall point. You're going to be spending 2-3 times MORE then you should and could be right now. Especially considering you're selling your current AVR which sweetens your ability even more.

You could really just keep your current AVR and get a damn good amp. ::shrugs::

I am getting Onkyo TX-NR905 and LSi series speakers by this Friday. I will try the new receiver and see how hot it gets playing at a reasonable level. If it does not seem to be able to handle the speakers, then I will return it, just pay a shipping and restocking fee of about $200, and order Emotiva XPA-5 then. Thank you for your advice though!

Hawkeye

I've been following this "be" guys threads and have come to a couple conclusions.

1. The guy is one of those brand lovers to the death. Chevy, Ford, Dodge, Sony or Onkyo........put in any brand and there will be a die hard. Can't change or reason with people like that. When the AVR smoke checks, he'll buy another of the same brand and chalk it up to just a bad piece that got through QC.

2. He's not here for advice, perhaps trying to salve his buyers remorse by saying his stuff is .........?

3. Some of the car analogies don't make sense to me but I overlook those. He does not know cars either.

You folks have given him some pretty good, sound (no pun intended) advice which he chooses to ignore.

Gordo

Gaara

be83663 wrote: »

Thank you, Gaara for looking for an amp for me. I really appreciate it! But to give another car analogy, I would rather buy a new Honda Accord than a used BMW, even though I do have to sell my used Honda Civic (my used Onkyo TX-SR805) in order to do that and I don't like selling used items either, I will at least sell used ones;

As long as you are not buying your new Honda for the warranty, as both your LSi dealer and Onkyo dealer are not authorized to sell their respective products, and therefore you should expect 0 support from Polk or Onkyo in case something goes wrong.