Worried about new set-up

Bass_Pedal

I picked up a pair of RtiA7's in early January. Purchasing them spurred me on to re-building my entire 2 channel set up. I decided to go with seperates, because I wanted to get serious. Here is what I put together:

Mains – RtiA7's
Pre-Amp – Adcom GFP-750
Amp – Adcom GFA-545
CD Player – Cambridge Audio Azure 640c V2

It looks ok on paper, but after putting it together and listening to it for a while I have a major issue, it sounds bright, WAY bright!! The bass is fine and the mid-range is even better, but the highs are just too harsh and unpleasant. The first thing I figured was that I hadn't broken in the speakers and CDP. I played the 640 for 24 hours straight for the recommended burn-in. As for the speakers, I have been using them for HT and TV since I got them, so 2 ½ months of very regular use should have made a dent into the break-in process. After burning in the 640 I detected no real difference, which leads me to my questions, where did I go wrong? Is the Adcom 545 not powerful enough to drive these speakers? Would that make them sound harsh on the high end? Is this amp bright on it's own? Could it be the pre-amp? I have tried it in both active and passive modes, active is a little brighter... I am at a loss, replacing the amp would be the easiest solution at this time, if anyone has a suggestion for a warmer sounding amp ( I can spend about $600) , I am all ears, if that is in fact the problem...

Thanks.

fatchowmein

What type of music and specifically what were you listening to that lead to the "bright" conclusion?

The RTiA series were designed for home theatre and, yes, they can be used for music listening as some folks do well with them and warmer gear.

If you're looking for warmer sounds, try the LSi series, specifically the LSi15's or LSi9's.

I've never owned the Adcom's you've listed so I'll defer to someone else on the forum who have had experience with them.

dragon1952

A nice tube preamp or tube integrated would likely help. That's assuming it isn't the recordings. I would say your speakers and CDP are going to be on the detailed side so bad recordings are probably going to be really bad. But I would think you could build around the speakers and source and be OK. Setup could play a major part also.

F1nut

Welcome to the wonderful world of audio.

On paper means diddly squat as you've found out. Did the speakers sound bright when you used them for HT? Is the room hard? What brand of cables are you using? Can you borrow a different amp, pre amp, CDP or speakers? You're probably going to have to try different pieces of gear to figure out the issue. Synergy is what you are after and right now you don't have it.

That said, some feel the RTiA series are better suited for HT. Some feel Adcom gear is grainy, which results in a bright or harsh top end.

BaggedLancer

Tube buffer maybe?

heiney9

Your weak link is the speakers. LSi's would be a much better 2-ch match for music listening. Your gear is excellent, especially the pre. I've had a 545 for 20 years and never had an issue with it. It's not bright or grainy. As nice as the the new RTiA line is the LSi's are still a better choice for music. If it were me I'd start there.

H9

tcrossma

I have the GFP-750 and do not think that's your problem -- it's a very smooth, enjoyable pre. I don't have any first-hand experience with your other gear, but i'd agree that it's the speakers that are likely the cause.

heiney9

On other thing not mentioned so far is all speakers need to break in. You said you've been listening "for awhile", how long is awhile? It may take 200-300 hours for the tweeters to break in. They may sound better after break in but still not be what you want.

H9

john22614

My hunch is that it's the speakers.....although the RTi's are strong and clear, I've always felt they are a little too bright for music.....if you can try out a pair of LSi's at home, you may decide to go with them instead. Would be interested in what you think if you can do that.

Bass_Pedal

Thanks for all the responses. I was afraid the consensus decision would be the speakers as the issue. Unfortunately, of all the gear I can replace "under the radar" , without my wife noticing that is, the speakers are the only thing I can't get away with, especially since I just got them a couple months ago. Let me answer some of the follow-up questions:

I listen to a fairly decent range of stuff, from Miles Davis to Wilco to Peter Gabriel to Foo Fighters to Frank Sinatra. Admittedly the straight ahead rock stuff sounds the brightest. I only listen to store bought redbook discs so low bitrate bootlegs aren't the issue.

For HT these speakers sound great, no issues but I am not nearly as scrutinizing when watching a movie or TV then I am when listening to music.

As for wiring and interconnects, I us a pair of medium range "The Chord Company" cables from my CDP to the pre-amp. The rest of my interconnects are Monster THX(all hype I would suspect) The speakers are wired up with 8 gauge cable, with banana plug terminations.

If a tube amp would help, I would be willing to go that route, but I am afraid of tube amps because I know nothing about them. I have noticed that they cost quite a bit more than solid state when comparing power ratings. Does anyone have a suggestion for a tube amp powerful enough to run these speakers?

Thanks again for all the input thus far.

venomclan

I think it is your speakers also. Swapping out other items may help a little. Try to dampen your room also. Good luck.
Venom

ohskigod

might want to look into some cheap sound treatments. I had a HUGE brightness problem in my 2 channel area that a little sound foam in the primary reflection areas worked WONDERS.

I would swap out that Adcom. in the right applications, Adcoms are great amps, but I have heard more than a few complaints of brightness/grainy issues when there used.

swapping the amp would probably be your cheapest option to try. a warmer amp might be your cup of tea. Carver would fit the bill as they sound on the warm side (I picture Russ and Doro convulsing as they read this..lol).

Doro's tube buffer idea could certainly work wonders, but this might have to be a multiangle approach. Try a Warmer amp, then some sound treatments if possible (primarily on the side walls at ear level 1/2 between you and the speakers)

a tube pre might help too.


eesh man, welcome to the joys and hell of 2 channel
I rolled through ALOT of gear before getting things the way I like. I learned the hard way how sound treatments are a big part of it. when you run tube gear with bozaks and things still sound broght at louder volumes, you learn FAST that you got room issues

I assume you got those speakers new, so I wouldnt be fast to swap them...since you will probably get crushed selling them used compared to what you paid retail. Thats not to say trying different speakers down the road should not be on your agenda.

adam2434

You certainly have a nice CD player, but another idea would be a NOS (non-oversampling) DAC. They generally have a mellow, laid-back sound that folks often describe as more "analog-sounding".

A DAC with a tube output/buffer might have the same effect.

These DACs are highly regarded and fit within your $600 range.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0406/mhdt_laboratory_dac.htm

Ultimately however, it could just be that the speakers are too aggressive for your tastes.

Music Joe

Radio Shack Gold Series Interconnects might fly 'under the radar'.
Not expensive and can tame 'some' brightness.

markmarc

Start with your room:

Are all the surfaces hard? What is the ceiling height? To test take some bath towels or other heavy fabric (one of my readers went so far as to hang sleeping bags to see if that would help as a test) and find a way to hang them on the walls.

The Adcom 545 is a fine amp, even if it is a bit grainy. Remember, start with simplest/easiest solution first. Also makes sure to get at least 100 hours of break-in on the speakers.

Bass_Pedal

Once again, thanks for all the responses.

My living room is hardwood floor mostly covered by an area rug. The speakers are sitting on the hardwood right in front of the carpeted area. The ceiling is 10 ft high and is concrete (it’s an apartment). Behind my speakers is a window which is always covered with a two layers of curtains.

As for the tube buffer, the Musical Fidelity X-10 v3 is being sold by someone in my area for $250. I am still digesting the various reviews of it on the net. Some are good, some say it made things worse. I will probably take dorokusai's advise and try it out, if I don’t like it I can re-sell it for the same money.

As for an outboard DAC, I think I will try a few other options before I got that route, I spent a pretty penny on the 640 because of its dual DACs. Hopefully they aren’t a contributing factor to the brightness issue.

I admit that these speakers could use some more break-in time, and they will get it, as I use them everyday for 4 or more hours a day!

Thanks

dkg999

The Cambridge Audio CDP will need about 300 hours for the DAC to break in. I wouldn't make any changes until you give it time, and your speakers time, to break in. I had the CA 640 v1 CDP and it really changed the high end after the DAC had time to break in.

mulveling

If it's "way too bright", such that it requires a drastic change, I wouldn't assume a amps/preamps/etc solution at first - they can make a big difference, but rarely so drastic.

Play with speaker positioning, seating area positioning, toe-in, furniture arrangements. Trial and error. A LOT of it.

Break the speakers in more. I've found that burn-in makes a huge difference on some transducers, but no so much on others. Just depends. If it doesn't change after 400 hours, it's probably not going to. Problem is, I've had a transducer that really seems to take that long to blossom.

Deadening the front wall (wall behind speakers) is generally a very good idea. I like using 8-12 Auralex SonoFlat tiles; they're decent looking (when mounted in various patterns with each tile in a "diamond" orientation), fairly effective, and have a good fire rating. This will remain a good investment even if you change speakers.

It may still turn out the speakers are not to your taste, in which case I would change those out before experimenting with the electronics gear

Music Joe

The ceiling is 10 ft high and is concrete

This could be it, a difficult one indeed. Low volume & nearfield?

Concrete floors are usually covered with something, but a ceiling...
Imagine the reverse, a concrete bare foor. And ceiling treatments usually for first reflection points will come up short. Treatment of a major portion of a concrete ceiling for reflections in a ?rented? space again difficult.
The prescribed solution for a concrete wall is framing and sheetrock

Bass_Pedal

Wow that's disconcerting. I don't know if there is much a can do about the ceiling as it is indeed, rented. But it does make perfect sense... I will have to look into possible solutions short of sheetrock...

mulveling

Don't be disconcerted. By far, I'd rather deal with a concrete floor & ceiling than the typical flimsy construction that's standard in most apartments. I'm not sure concrete is really worse than sheet-rock from an acoustic standpoint. There's benefits from the sturdy construction - at least the concrete won't ring like a bell...not to mention the superior isolation it provides from neighbors. Gonna get a turntable? Suspended wood floor is your enemy (I'm assuming your floor is sturdy too).

The SonoFlat tiles would be a good way to treat the ceiling, if you deem it necessary. No need to go whole hog; good coverage of the 1st reflection point area should do (approximately half way between you and the speakers).

So far I've not yet found it really necessary to do ceiling treatment, but of course different rooms and speakers here.

Music Joe

Yeah, I mentioned the sheetrock and frame thing more as a 'moral for the story' for block or concrete basement walls.
Concretes solidity is a very effective reflector of wideband of frequencies.
Even a fully deadened floor won't adress what travels upwards. That ceiling is gonna bounce sound so very well. I don't think texture paints will even tame concrete bounce. The 10' height is nice but will make those main reflection points large.

You could try a small diy project....take a strip of card board wide enough to be stable on top of the speaker and long enough to put two folds in so as to make a hood for the speaker.
Wrap it with a large enough towel to go around it about three turns, fold each end down place it on top of the speaker and extend it over the baffle-face as needed.
This might show how much ceiling is in the bright sonics equation. Good luck

Lowell_M

H9, Is that the Cambridge CDP that we tried out on my RTI70's that made is want to tear our eardrums out?

Bass Pedal, Welcome to the forum. Do you have another source you could swap out to see if there is any drastic change in the brightness? The RTi's are going to be a bit bright, but if my memory is correct, we tried that CDP one day while swapping out gear and it was pretty bright.

Bass_Pedal

Thanks a mattison, I pulled out my my old Pioneer DV 563A universal player and dusted off my even older DAC Magic 2 and hooked them up to the pre-amp for a listen. Sure enough in direct A-B comparisons the 640 was a little bit brighter, but was also more detailed and had a fuller sound overall. As a previous post mentioned, I think I still have some more burn-in time to go before some of that brightness from the CDP clears up.

A co-worker of mine is trying to sell an Acurus A-200, he is going to loan it to me for a bit, I will see if that makes any difference.

ben62670

The ceiling can be treated with acoustic sails to reduce reflections.

venomclan

You can also try some different toe in positions that may effect the tweeter dispersion. You would be amazed by how little movement can effect the sound. I lived in a condo with concrete ceilings like your with a Cambridge 640v.1. I liked the sound but had to fiddle a bit. I stuffed the power ports with foam in different degrees and it tweaked the sound to my liking. Before you go out and buy more gear, try all the free to inexpensive mods. Hopefully they will help.
Venom

VXR8

Hi Bass_Pedal,

Another option as people are referring to toe in is to raise the tweeter above ear level. I have the also "bright" RTi10s for which I have on 12 inch stands - this also has tamed the sound.

Having said that, I too will soon be upgrading to the LSi series as I want more musical speakers - for me it is 80% music and 20% HT. Worth a try and good luck.

Mike Reeter

I was having the same problem with our RTi12's the tweeter was just too much...finally switched out speaker cable to some Signal Cable Ultras and the difference was day/night.

Give everything a chance to "settle" in and then start making some tweeks.

Bass_Pedal

Thanks for the ideas,

I am going to try to elevate the speakers tomorrow, it's worth a try.

As for the "Signal Cable Ultras", my interest is peaked! I wasn't aware that speaker cable could make such a difference. I did a web search and didn't come up with much. Are they available from the manufacturer or are they sold at local shops?

Thanks

Mike Reeter

Bass_Pedal wrote: »

Thanks for the ideas,

I am going to try to elevate the speakers tomorrow, it's worth a try.

As for the "Signal Cable Ultras", my interest is peaked! I wasn't aware that speaker cable could make such a difference. I did a web search and didn't come up with much. Are they available from the manufacturer or are they sold at local shops?

Thanks

Tell Frank you are a Club Polk member and receive a 5% discount.

http://signalcable.com/index.html

Not saying these cables are a "cure all" but they made a huge difference in the top end of our RTi's...really took the edge off,but midrange clarity is still there...you might try a used pair just to give em' a whirl.

tcrossma

Signal Cable has a 30-day money back guarantee, so order yourself up a pair -- nothing to lose. My guess is that you'll want to keep them.