Carver TFM-35 vs. Denon POA 2200
ryboltroad
Posts: 16
Hi again all. I have been part (albeit limited) of this forum over the past several years and once again have the need to jump in. I realize that looking for unbiased advice in the audio world is pretty much an oxymoron but here goes.
I retired my beloved Carver TFM-35 to the storage room a few ago in search of some new 'strange' ; well in those years I ended up the usual stuff. Onkyo's ,Adcom's etc. Well the Denon POA2200 stole my heart driving my trusty Monitor 10's. I had found my dream amp .. period
Today I decided to put the TFM-35 on the bay to fund an upgrade of some other equipment. As part of my due diligence as a good seller and hooking it up to make sure everything was copasetic, I discovered it sounded pretty good. Damn good in fact. Suffice it to say I have spent the majority of the day switching back and forth between the two and the 35 keeps coming out on top.
Curious as to whether of any of you real experts think this out of the norm? For whatever reason I guess I had formulated the opinion that the Denon was a superior product. As of right now, I think I am gonna put the Denon on the bay.
Comments? Thanks
Gregg
I retired my beloved Carver TFM-35 to the storage room a few ago in search of some new 'strange' ; well in those years I ended up the usual stuff. Onkyo's ,Adcom's etc. Well the Denon POA2200 stole my heart driving my trusty Monitor 10's. I had found my dream amp .. period
Today I decided to put the TFM-35 on the bay to fund an upgrade of some other equipment. As part of my due diligence as a good seller and hooking it up to make sure everything was copasetic, I discovered it sounded pretty good. Damn good in fact. Suffice it to say I have spent the majority of the day switching back and forth between the two and the 35 keeps coming out on top.
Curious as to whether of any of you real experts think this out of the norm? For whatever reason I guess I had formulated the opinion that the Denon was a superior product. As of right now, I think I am gonna put the Denon on the bay.
Comments? Thanks
Gregg
Post edited by ryboltroad on
Comments
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I'm not surprised...though I haven't heard the Denon. The Carver's got a signature sound. You've got me thinking about putting it back on the 1Cs.
Combo rig:
Onkyo NR1007 pre-pro, Carver TFM 45(fronts), Carver TFM 35 (surrounds)
SDA 1C, CS400i, SDA 2B
PB13Ultra RO
BW Silvers
Oppo BDP-83SE -
Not sure what it is, but I've found the 'Carver sound' to go very well with the 'Polk sound'. TFM-35 is no slouch and is probably on about the same level as the Denon, IMO. One of my favorite Carver amps and probably the one I'd keep if the others had to go.
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No surprise here.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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I agree.
engtazengtaz
I love how music can brighten up a bad day. -
Carver + Polk = audio bliss.
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A properly designed solid state amp is not supposed to have sound colorations.
How old is your Denon, perhpas the caps need to be replaced. -
Bob Carver is an amp guru and definitely designed many of his amps to feature a signature sound. The TFMs and Ts are modded to sound like his silver 7 tube monos. Fans love them, others don't, but you'll hear the difference.A properly designed solid state amp is not supposed to have sound colorations.
How old is your Denon, perhpas the caps need to be replaced.
Combo rig:
Onkyo NR1007 pre-pro, Carver TFM 45(fronts), Carver TFM 35 (surrounds)
SDA 1C, CS400i, SDA 2B
PB13Ultra RO
BW Silvers
Oppo BDP-83SE -
Furball, if you are referring to the Carver amps....many of them are emulated to sound like a tube amp, yet they are an SS amp. Google "The Carver Amplifier Challenge" that went down in Santa Fe.A properly designed solid state amp is not supposed to have sound colorations.
The TFM-35 ryboltroad has was emulated to sound like Bob's Silver Seven tube amplifier. That's the King of Carver tube amplifiers, still highly acclaimed and still bringing in the big bucks.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
The Denon is good, but the Carver is better.
I've had a POA2800 in my setup, and it didn't sound bad.
The Carver's high current output is going to give you a warmer sound.
That series of Denons seems to sell for as much as the Carvers.
I don't think money wise you're going to lose anything selling the
Denon rather than the Carver."The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson -
A properly designed solid state amp is not supposed to have sound colorations.
How old is your Denon, perhpas the caps need to be replaced.
All amps have a sound. For instance my B&k st202 has a different sound than my Rotel.
Most reviewers say it, and my ears confirm it.
Most evey amp I've tried has different sound. Sometimes it's not much,
but different. Stop overthinking. We had a HUGE thread on how to even
start a standard for true, uncolored sound. It didn't resolve much.
If you even look at the real specs, (not the short list most manufacturers
give out) there are a lot of specs other than watts and frequency range
that tell you more about the amp. It's like a horsepower rating on a car.
Meaningless drivel. Show me a rpm/torque chart, now I know a lot more
how it will perform."The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson -
I agree that many boutique amps have signature sound colorations. And many people seem to like these sound colorations, and that's the justification those boutique amp manufacturers' charge big bucks for their amps.
But you have to agree that the job of a properly designed amp is to amplify the signal fed to it, without adding any colorations in the amplification process.
If you like colorations, you don't have to pay big bucks for amp colorations, just add a digital EQ, you can tweak the sound to whatever shape and form you like to your heart's content. It is a far more elegant and much less expensive solution. -
It's now obvious that you are a blow hard that doesn't know what the F you are talking about.I agree that many boutique amps have signature sound colorations. And many people seem to like these sound colorations, and that's the justification those boutique amp manufacturers' charge big bucks for their amps.
But you have to agree that the job of a properly designed amp is to amplify the signal fed to it, without adding any colorations in the amplification process.
If you like colorations, you don't have to pay big bucks for amp colorations, just add a digital EQ, you can tweak the sound to whatever shape and form you like to your heart's content. It is a far more elegant and much less expensive solution.
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If you only knew the history of audio you would know. Anyhoo, have fun with this thread. I'm sure many folks will trust you and your opinions on SVS subs.:rolleyes:~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
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I agree that many boutique amps have signature sound colorations. And many people seem to like these sound colorations, and that's the justification those boutique amp manufacturers' charge big bucks for their amps.
But you have to agree that the job of a properly designed amp is to amplify the signal fed to it, without adding any colorations in the amplification process.
If you like colorations, you don't have to pay big bucks for amp colorations, just add a digital EQ, you can tweak the sound to whatever shape and form you like to your heart's content. It is a far more elegant and much less expensive solution.
Never mind. I had a whole paragraph lined up, but why bother.
We have different viewpoints. Never will the two meet."The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson -
I agree that many boutique amps have signature sound colorations. And many people seem to like these sound colorations, and that's the justification those boutique amp manufacturers' charge big bucks for their amps.
But you have to agree that the job of a properly designed amp is to amplify the signal fed to it, without adding any colorations in the amplification process.
If you like colorations, you don't have to pay big bucks for amp colorations, just add a digital EQ, you can tweak the sound to whatever shape and form you like to your heart's content. It is a far more elegant and much less expensive solution.
Perhaps you can give us a list of these perfect pieces of gear with no coloration.....start with pre-amps-processors-amps and of coarse,speakers.
Everything adds or subtracts something from recorded music.As far as I know,nothing is available to bring live music into my home as it sounds...well,live.The word nuetral is of itself,subjective.Coloration is more of a side effect brought on by design and parts used,rather than an all out goal of the designer.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I agree, we can cordially agree to disagree.
Unlike fellow member treitz, who apparently has to resort to using the F word every time settle any kind of argument. -
treitz3 wrote:It's now obvious that you are a blow hard that doesn't know what the F you are talking about.treitz3 wrote:F youfurball wrote::rolleyes:
Obvious misrepresentation. Take the entire quote in context. Then learn.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
This is not an argument. I am trying to let you learn.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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Of course every single piece of gear adds and subtracts something from the original signal. The difference lies in the degree of coloration. But the final goal is still to reproduce the music as close to the original signal as possible.
Do you want a piece of gear that gives you 50% coloration (exaggeration of course), or would you prefer a piece of gear that merely gives you 1% coloration (hypothetical situation of course).
For myself, I would choose that 1% coloration. -
This was a question and not a statement.Perhaps you can give us a list of these perfect pieces of gear with no coloration.....start with pre-amps-processors-amps and of coarse,speakers.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Regardless of circumstances, please refrain from using the F word in the future. It is extremely rude.This is not an argument. I am trying to let you learn.
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The point of this thread was that the author had stated that the Carver TFM-35 sounded better than the Denon POA 2200. The "coloration" you speak is an emulation of a tube amp, specifically the Carver silver seven. If you don't know what that is, I can't help you.Do you want a piece of gear that gives you 50% coloration~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Take a look at gears used in modern recording studios. Their first and foremost emphasis is on accuracy. The sound might be described as boring or sterile, that I do no disagree. But you can tweak the end result with a digital EQ to whatever shape and form your heart may desire, provided the upstream signal is an accurate signal.This was a question and not a statement.
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I never disputed the fact that some people find this colored tube sound pleasant.
I was merely pointing out that the tube sound coloration does not give you an accurate reproduction of the original signal.The point of this thread was that the author had stated that the Carver TFM-35 sounded better than the Denon POA 2200. The "coloration" you speak is an emulation of a tube amp, specifically the Carver silver seven. If you don't know what that is, I can't help you. -
...and this has what to do with this thread?Take a look at gears used in modern recording studios. Their first and foremost emphasis is on accuracy. The sound might be described as boring or sterile, that I do no disagree. But you can tweak the end result with a digital EQ to whatever shape and form your heart may desire, provided the upstream signal is an accurate signal.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
If there is a cap, resistor or tube, in any part of the chain, there will be coloration.
So lets just drop that subject.Monitor 7b's front
Monitor 4's surround
Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
M10's back surround
Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
Harman/Kardon AVR-635
Oppo 981hd
Denon upconvert DVD player
Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
Mit RPTV WS-55513
Tosh HD-XA1
B&K AV5000
Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek: -
If you would like to get into accuracy, look up the challenge that was held that night in Santa Fe. See who won. Ask Stereophile magazine, of course you will not get a response because they lost and consumers won.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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....and then look up the word emulation. It's in the dictionary, trust me.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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And then please look up the definition for borderline personality disorder. Just do a google search, trust me.
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I am, however curious of a "boutique amp" that happens to be vintage. This is new to me. Could you fill me in with some knowledge please?boutique amp~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
