Seas 18RNX in Monitor 10's

License2ILL

Hello to all.

I have been lurking for some time and decided to finally join.

I am in the process of rebuilding my Monitor 10's passed down to me from my father who was going to scrap them for taking up too much space.

I plan to either rebuild or completely upgrade the XO's. Any good complete upgrade replacements out there?

Also had to replace a pair of speakers and am trying a pair of these in 1 of the units right now:
http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=111&Itemid=133

The reason I went this route is that I wanted to take advantage of the newer speaker architecture/design/performance out there rather than to just replace with stock equivalents.

Well I know purists will get a kick out of this but they seem to flubber at high volumes. Although I did not know the black wire is our positive so I will try this tonight.

My question relating to this is do any modders or tweakers out there have true known compatible higher performing modern drivers? To replace both our drivers and tweeters +XO?

I am not trying to offend anyone. I just would like to step-up however I can ...these had Peerless tweeters a long long time ago....but they popped.......my pops had setup a pair of Vifa tweeters later on.....but they also popped.

I just want something that can take some good volume/abuse. That is why I am leaning towards aftermarket drivers.

I do remember quite well how great these sounded when I was kid.......and out of homage to those memory's I saved them from the scrapyard. But outside of this I feel an upgrade in components no matter what branding should help things from "popping" and given our modern standards even somehow outshine yesteryear's performance.
If this offends then I do apologize.
But alas it is my money and I truly want to bring these cabinets and this 2 way design up to modern specs...within a reasonable budget.

If any of you could help I'd really appreciate it. I'm a little dissappointed in my most current trial but am not ready to give up just yet.
To me just having these old units still around is nostalgic enough...now if I could modernize them??!! why not? I have to buy new stuff anyway.
It's like if someone gave u 69 Camaro and u had to re-do it's original 327. but had the opportunity to drop an LS9 in it. There's no question what I would do. And yes I would stil drop an LS9 in a Ford as well.
I understand purists tho just like resoration non-mod guys. I think those approaches are reached with more and more age. I'm just not quite there yet. hehehehe.
Just need some help from ppl who have more background with these in specific.

jakelm

Silver Flutes have been recommended.


I have not tryed them.

I do however own a pair of these Tweeters. A perfect fit to replace the peerless with. They dont sound have bad either.

ben62670

Take a look at the Silver Flutes over at madisound.com. The Seas driver you have selected has a huge impedance bump down low (30ohms) which is amazingly close to the Polks MW's. The Seas would be more of a drop in, but if you feel like modding your XO's I would try the Silver Flutes, and Morel MDT 20 tweeters. I have used the MDT 20 tweeters with great success. I am not going to let you know who told me to try the silver flutes, but it would be surprising to many.

BTW
Welcome to CP
Ben

ben62670

jakelm wrote: »

Silver Flutes have been recommended.


I have not tryed them.

I do however own a pair of these Tweeters. A perfect fit to replace the peerless with. They dont sound have bad either.

I type way to slow:D
I have seen those tweets come up in the past. Are they nice, and airy. Any listening fatigue?

jakelm

ben62670 wrote: »

I type way to slow:D
I have seen those tweets come up in the past. Are they nice, and airy. Any listening fatigue?

Those tweets, are very close to the Peerless. After installing them, I adjusted the resistor by about 1ohm (2.5ohm to 3.5ohm). And the sound was almost identicle. I think they are just alittle more efficient than the Peerless. But this can be corrected with a smal xover mod or a simple turn of the treble nob.

zingo

A lot of folks on here swear by rebuilding the x-overs with sonicap or solen caps and mills resistors. I would recommend that whether you are rebuilding or upgrading. As far as the drivers go, go for it. Down the road I am going to buy are pair of old Polks with no life left, and play around with new drivers. Some will call you evil, but I think it's a fun project.

ben62670

zingo wrote: »

A lot of folks on here swear by rebuilding the x-overs with sonicap or solen caps and mills resistors. I would recommend that whether you are rebuilding or upgrading. As far as the drivers go, go for it. Down the road I am going to buy are pair of old Polks with no life left, and play around with new drivers. Some will call you evil, but I think it's a fun project.

Actually I have tried a couple of the cheaper caps, and used to use Solen's, but I would recommend the Dayton's over the Solen's any day. Much smoother, and still have nice detail.

License2ILL

Awesome suggestions.
The silver flutes have a great power handling rate.
That Peerless substitute looks great and identical drop in.
But low on the power handling...the MDT20's look up to snuff tho!!

Am willing to do re-do the whole XO with whatever tweaks are known proven or needed to be compatible with other components.
Actually was thinking it should be replaced entirely since new ones don't carry that huge coil winding wrapped around the back of our plastic jackin plates. Newer ones probably operate more efficiently.

Keep the suggestions coming. I'm glad there's a few mavericks out there.
Anyone know of a pair of 7inches we can use? this was the direction I was leaning on since the ports were gently massaged for the Seas. But not enough so as to not still accept the old 6.5's.
Just do prefer to run some 7's it seems many of the newer designs start handling great power at 7 inches and really take off at 8...but thats too big for the cabs.
Thanks again.

Joe08867

ben62670 wrote: »

Actually I have tried a couple of the cheaper caps, and used to use Solen's, but I would recommend the Dayton's over the Solen's any day. Much smoother, and still have nice detail.

I was actually thinking of trying the Daytons on my next crossover upgrade. Do you really think they sound smoother?

I did notice they had a higher tolerance then the solens.

ben62670

Joe08867 wrote: »

I was actually thinking of trying the Daytons on my next crossover upgrade. Do you really think they sound smoother?

I did notice they had a higher tolerance then the solens.

Way better. I was using Solen's exclusively till a Polkie karamed some because he liked the Dayton's much more. Just like in who wants to be a millionaire "ask the audience" usually brings up the correct answer. After a while curiosity got the best of me, and I had to try them in some monitors I built with the MW6502's, and Morel MDT20's. I had about 100hrs of some hard listening on the Solen's(faster burn-in), and right off the bat the Dayton's sound much better. I have some RTA15TL's with the RDO swap, and the XO rebuilt with Solen's. The little monitors with the MDT's, and Dayton's smoke my beloved RTA's in all aspects except of coarse the fullness that 4 MW's give you over one in the bass department. Soon my RTA's will be populated on the highs with the Dayton's.
Just a little side note. On the low pass the caps run from hot to ground, and the signal does not pass through them into the speaker;) When doing cap upgrades the money save buying cheaper big caps can be used to buy higher end caps on the highs where the signal passes directly through the caps, and into the speaker. I am not saying to go with less than Dayton's, or Solen's, but big sonicaps can really bump up the price with a steep diminishing return on the low pass side;)

dorokusai

It's not rocket science, use the cabinet volume to determine a rough series of drivers to use....the rest is up to your brain and eventually your wallet.

The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook is a worthy read...and the previous suggestionjs have some merit.

License2ILL

It's not that easy cuz if so the current units would work as they matched BassPro software designs...but yet turned out flubbery for some reason.

dorokusai

Flubbery sounds very technical....what exactly does that mean?

zingo

What do these drivers have in common with a Robin Williams movie?

ben62670

License2ILL wrote: »

I am willing to do re-do the whole XO with whatever tweaks are known proven or needed to be compatible with other components.
Actually was thinking it should be replaced entirely since new ones don't carry that huge coil winding wrapped around the back of our plastic jackin plates. Newer ones probably operate more efficiently.

I have no issues with the XO inductors, or the boards. It makes life a little simpler using these parts. If you do start changing drivers around I suggest getting a rat shack meter, and downloading True RTA's free version as a signal generator. I would leave the stock LP section alone, and run some sweeps to find where the mids start to drop off, and mod the HP section to fit the mids XO point. Any where from 1600-2500 is fine IMHO for the low pass if the tweeter you select gets along with the XO point. If they are going to be pushed hard I would recommend you have the HP at 2000hz-2500hz. Don't worry too much about quoted tweeter power handling. Actually pretty much ignore it. Manufacturers have tons of leeway with specking max power for tweeters. They have no real standard. The higher you cross them, and the steeper the XO the more power you could feed them. At 5000hz 24db a quoted 20watt tweeter could probably handle a clean 250wpc amp without breaking a sweat.

License2ILL

dorokusai wrote: »

Flubbery sounds very technical....what exactly does that mean?

My sony receiver has 100w per channel 120 at most.
Volume is 1-30. If I go to 20 the pair start rock back and forth making a "flub" noise from the outer lip I guess. If I push it a little more they make a slight crackle so basically I gotta stay under 20....which they sound good and deliver good bass....but just doesn't seem right they can't go to 24-25 without distorting.
If im not mistaking the originals got up this high fine....altho they didnt last too long....but they were dusted from not being on in years. So i think they were just old and rotted.
I just put the blacks on the positive but they still do the same.
My tweeters are fried so they're not hooked up.
without the tweeter you can still pickup mostly everything but the highest freq's so I'm not dissing these it's just they don't seem to go too high on the volume without distorting due to bass. If I cut out everything under 125hz when i play from Windows media player....it can go past the 20 mark just fine......it seems bass is not their friend.

License2ILL

I just tried them bypassing the XO just straight thru..WOW BIG DIFFERENCE....it's as if they like being full range....i've gotten up to 20 with no distortion at all.
But cant go further cuz the Sony trips up and goes into Protect mode after only a few seconds......

They crackled some at 15 but with the stupid bass boost on. Hit 20 without bass boost but goes into protect mode too quick to know if it won't "flubber"

ben62670

Try an amp to control the woofers much better than a receiver. I started with an Adcom GFA-5400, and the woofer control kicked the crap out of nearly any receiver out there. One of the things I love about the old Polk MW's is the "flimsy" soft rubber surround, and very light paper cone. The potential for these speakers to hit very fast, and very hard is what keeps me loyal to the vintage SDA's, and monitors. Most like the MW6503's here, but I like the 6501's, and the later 6500's. I have used nearly every single MW Polk has made, and in experimental cabinets I have had mixed woofers that I have collected over the years. I have seen them running side by side. Don't under estimate the MW's. They are not the be all end all by any means, but are quite amazing for what they are.

Not the best environment, but just to give you an idea of how many woofers I have played with. With 16 MW each I feed the 800wpc rms clean which only works out to 50watts per woofer which is also what your Sony puts out. I never have had flubber going on since I went to amps. Well If I start hitting 126+ DB I have heard a tad of bottoming.

dorokusai

You're overdriving the Sony and subsequently the drivers in the loudspeaker. There's more burned up drivers in your future. Good luck with your project.

License2ILL

Thats one incredible rig you got there....can u say PAAAARRRTTTYYYYYY panty pARRTTYY!!!!! Dood if the drinks dont get em drunk the ear ringing will!!!!!

Yup I just found the stickers from the older drivers 2 of which I still have but are goner's they were MW6500's.
If the silver flutes aren't necessarily rated much higher than the MW's then maybe it's best to go half purist(should I be baptized?) and stock up on the MW6503's that's all thats available right?
These 6500 are dated 1981!!!!!!!! I finished them off with my incessent high volume.......no wonder my pops use to wack us when he found the fuses blown.....but I still can't help it!!! sometimes I'll crank em up!!

I'm running the seas with the tweeter hole open and the Sony @15..straight thru no XO they sound absolutely great...but put the bass boost on and crackle crackle. So I know they still wont do 21 or 22 without the bass boost. You think the MW's would hang propers?

The seas are new by the way. Think burn-in will cure "flubber"?

License2ILL

dorokusai wrote: »

You're overdriving the Sony and subsequently the drivers in the loudspeaker. There's more burned up drivers in your future. Good luck with your project.

Purist for sure.
The head unit was fine until I bypassed the XO. And it's just to see if it was the XO causing the flubbing.

And thanks!! for all you've inputted so far.

Ben u think I'm expecting too much to hit 23-24 on my Sony dial before they distort?

zingo

If you get a clean and powerful amp, you will be able to run them louder with less risk of damage. I am using a 600wpc Carver amp and can run my speakers 'til my ears bleed, without even tripping the polyswitch. That Sony receiver may be whats holding you back.

License2ILL

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-documents.pl?mdl=STRDE345
If u look at the operating instructions pg 20 you'll see the specs and big letters stating a very low distortion rate.
Thats not to say your setups arent attractive I just would have to sell this thing before buying one of those.
Still leaves me with these speakers flubbering....ah I think it's just the speakers. I'll definintely go with your setups but right now I need to tend to the speakers.

honda cber

RIP monitor 10.
1981-2008

a

License2ILL

I'm thinking these with an MDT20 tweeter:
http://www.speakerworks.com/6_5_inch_high_quality_oem_woofer_p/gw6pc8.htm

Think those specs are bullchit on their RMS handling?

ben62670

Poly cones don't do it for me. When I see heavy duty as one of the key words in speakers I don't really think of HiFi. Rubber surrounds are the way to fly. There is very little info on those speakers to. I like to see an impedance chart, and a frequency chart before I buy. No Vas, Xmax, or Fs/Fz specs given either. Power handling is one of the last things I look at. First thing I look at is the efficiency of a speaker. I like 90db+. A 93db speaker will put out the same volume with half the watts as a 90db speaker. This saves money on amps that could be used on the speakers. Second I look at the Fs/Fz to know how low it can be tuned. Last I look at the vas to know how big a box is needed. Also I know people are going to chime in on this comment, but the Monitor 10's have 2 8 ohm woofers in parallel. I think the 10's are rated at 6ohms nominal, but I know they dip to below 4. This is where receivers just can't control the woofers. I hope you don't feel like I am picking on your Sony, but very few receivers can put the currant out that is need at that low of an impedance to control flubber;)

ben62670

License2ILL wrote: »

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-documents.pl?mdl=STRDE345
If u look at the operating instructions pg 20 you'll see the specs and big letters stating a very low distortion rate.

Distortion rates anywhere below .1 are inaudible to nearly anyone, but I absolutely look at the distortion rates at max power output. Any amp of quality will add at least 40% power increase at 4ohms without any significant change in distortion. Currant is the key word here when looking at amps. Look at headroom specks, and dampening factor as determine factors when looking at amps.

Edit
I humored myself, and looked at the specs. 100wpc at 8ohms at 1 khz with a distortion of .7%
I am embarrassed for Sony even publishing those numbers:o Not one spec for 4ohms, or 20-20khz:rolleyes:
I wouldn't think about improving speakers till you had amplification straightened out. Sorry about being blunt here. No one likes their baby being called ugly, but it would be very misleading if I didn't say something. Dude you really need to upgrade what you are driving your speakers with first. I noticed you are using 2 channel, and HK has a very competent stereo receiver.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Harman-Kardon-3485-Stereo-Receiver-w-120W-per-channel_W0QQitemZ170199968882QQihZ007QQcategoryZ3279QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262
http://cgi.ebay.com/Harman-Kardon-3385-Stereo-Receiver-w-80W-per-channel_W0QQitemZ170199971880QQihZ007QQcategoryZ3279QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262
http://cgi.ebay.com/Harman-Kardon-HK-3480-Z-AM-FM-Stereo-Receiver-Tuner_W0QQitemZ160216284071QQihZ006QQcategoryZ3279QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262
The last one can be had for cheap usually, and would mop the floor with 99% of the receivers sold out there.

wizzy

jakelm wrote: »

I do however own a pair of these Tweeters. A perfect fit to replace the peerless with. They dont sound have bad either.

Looks like a Monacor tweeter:

http://www.monacor.de/typo3/index.php?id=84&artid=2138&spr=EN&typ=full

wizzy

I second the buy a real receiver comments.

I'm using a HK 3480-z with Monitor 10's right now.

ben62670

wizzy wrote: »

I second the buy a real receiver comments.

I'm using a HK 3480-z with Monitor 10's right now.

I don't think you can beat the bang for the buck factor with this combo:cool: You want to knock the socks off your friends feet. 20 yo speakers, and a stereo receiver. Dollar for dollar you just can't beat that combo IMHO.
Nice simple setup wizzy. Real nice:cool:

Edit
A lucky guy just won one for $132 from HK direct:eek:
history shows average price around $170 for them warrantied from HK;)

License2ILL

Well I'm convinced....just a matter of time now. but it definitely will happen. I may even pick one up before selling mine with tax money.

Ben you spoke of a different setup earlier tho...sounded like an industrial grade straight amp with some woofer controls. What's a good low end setup like that go for. Only cuz I'd rather cut to the chase and go with something that heavy duty....I know it will probably need a seperate receiver at that point but maybe I could use a small boombox in the intirem.

This just gets better and better that tweeter looks like a definite winner!

So it's between MW6503's or the Silver flutes.
Does anyone have a 7inch I could use?