New 2 channel sub ordered!

pearsall001

I swore I would never do it, but I just did. I ordered a new Velo SPL-1200R sub. From what I gather from talking to other audio folks & reading articles on the subject it's almost a must to run a sub (some even say stereo subs, but that's a story for another day) for true 2 channel enjoyment.

Even large froorstanders benefit from a sub, no matter how well they claim to reproduce bass, something they aren't engineered to do. Crossovers get in the way, the box itself just isn't made for true bass. All speaker designs are compromises & the end result always involves trade offs. This all made sense as I probed deeper for info.

A good subwoofer's main benefit is a double bonus, it's ability to reproduce the original ambience (the full acoustics) of the recording venue & to free the midrange & treble drivers from having to reproduce bass frequencies.

Physically separating the midrange-treble source of the speaker from the bass source of the subwoofer makes sense in other important ways too. In a typical room, optimum placement for imaging almost never corresponds to optimum placement for bass. Normally, most speakers image better when placed at different distances to & well away from front & side walls. On the other hand, in most rooms the deepest, smoothest & the most powerful bass is normally obtained at a room corner. This means that you can place the speakers for optimum imaging and the subwoofers for optimum bass. You can never do this with big floorstanders, period!

I'll be pairing my AAD 2001 monitors with the newly ordered Velo SPL-1200R sub. I'm dying to hear how well this new setup will sound & will be reporting back shortly.

Any 2 channel sub users care to chime in! Or any sub nay-sayers also care to chime in!

venomclan

You'll never match the speed of the Krell.
But good luck.

AndyGwis

I actually decided to hook up my little Definitive ProSub 80 (8", 250 watts, 20hz lower limit) sub up to my 2 channel system. . . just to see.

My Thiel CS1.2s are by no means full range, they spec out around low 50hz's +/- 3db but "load up" around mid/low 40's supposedly in my room.

I played a few songs. Some rock, a couple rap, etc. I basically could not hear the sub and did not notice much of a difference, even with the rap. So, I turned up the gain. By the time I could notice a difference, it sounded bloated / muddy, so I turned it back down.

Maybe it would add something to the lowest frequencies and blend okay if calibrated. Maybe that particular sub just sucks. Maybe subs don't blend that well.

To know for sure, I'd probably have to spend way more time and money than my Thiel's cost me. I don't notice them lacking anything, and they only go to mid-40's. So, for full range speaker owners to benefit for sub(s), they likely will need to spend quite a pretty penny to do so. I think it would be better use of funds to either upgrade your speakers to something more full-range, or upgrade your components to something that offers more punch in the bass. Adding a sub is a bandaid, in my opinion, unless you go all out.

Ricardo

What are you planning for the hook up? Are you sending the full frequencies to the monitors, or using some high pass filter? Would like to hear what you plan to do and look forward to your review.
I have also added some subs that are supposed to be very musical, but as Andy, in order to notice the sub was there the gain had to be too high and didn't sound good. My room is small and the monitors hit low enough, so that could be a big difference.

reeltrouble1

They told you wrong man. But have fun.

Sub I dun need to stinkin sub.

RT1

hearingimpared

I doneedno stikin sub either but if you do I'm glad you chose a good Phil. Does this new stereo sub play CDs?

jm1

AndyGwis wrote: »

I actually decided to hook up my little Definitive ProSub 80 (8", 250 watts, 20hz lower limit) sub up to my 2 channel system. . . just to see.

My Thiel CS1.2s are by no means full range, they spec out around low 50hz's +/- 3db but "load up" around mid/low 40's supposedly in my room.

I played a few songs. Some rock, a couple rap, etc. I basically could not hear the sub and did not notice much of a difference, even with the rap. So, I turned up the gain. By the time I could notice a difference, it sounded bloated / muddy, so I turned it back down.

Maybe it would add something to the lowest frequencies and blend okay if calibrated. Maybe that particular sub just sucks. Maybe subs don't blend that well.

To know for sure, I'd probably have to spend way more time and money than my Thiel's cost me. I don't notice them lacking anything, and they only go to mid-40's. So, for full range speaker owners to benefit for sub(s), they likely will need to spend quite a pretty penny to do so. I think it would be better use of funds to either upgrade your speakers to something more full-range, or upgrade your components to something that offers more punch in the bass. Adding a sub is a bandaid, in my opinion, unless you go all out.

Having had two of these at one point, I would not bother wasting any more time on them. Unfortunately, I also would not recommend using these in either a music or HT system. The unpublished lower -3dB limit of the sub is 31Hz.

pearsall001

Ricardo wrote: »

What are you planning for the hook up? Are you sending the full frequencies to the monitors, or using some high pass filter? Would like to hear what you plan to do and look forward to your review.
I have also added some subs that are supposed to be very musical, but as Andy, in order to notice the sub was there the gain had to be too high and didn't sound good. My room is small and the monitors hit low enough, so that could be a big difference.

I'll start off with the line level inputs & adjusting the crossover. I'll play around with other set up's too just to compare. I'm really looking forward to getting this set up & running.

Talking directly with the guys at Velodyne they highly recommended this sub when I expressed my 2 channel expectations. I was ready to go for the DD-12 but I was talked out of it. Since I'm not concerned with HT use this is the one they recommended for my 2 channel system. We"ll find out shortly. Once I'm up & running a review will follow.

dorokusai

Let me guess at your review....hmmmm, "it sounds amazing!".

RuSsMaN

I am Velo man.

pearsall001

dorokusai wrote: »

Let me guess at your review....hmmmm, "it sounds amazing!".

Yee of little faith!! I only call it like I hear it.

Refefer

Heathen!

jm1

I have referenced this specific journal in the past, but thought I would post it once again as this is an interesting read.

Audio Perfectionist

You don't mention line level outputs. I would suggest placing the sub in-line between the pre and power amp using RCA ICs to use the internal crossover which will place the crossover above the monitor's -3dB lower limit. Spend the time optimizing this configuration.

Make sure you have a test tones disc and an SPL meter handy when you start the integration process.

Zero wrote: »

Not to sound discouraging, but that Velo was not built for stereo applications. Its build (very high Q, thick driver mass, circuit) was designed for HT.

I'm curious, where did you find this information?

dorokusai wrote: »

Let me guess at your review....hmmmm, "it sounds amazing!".

There's no reason it shouldn't.

pearsall001

Zero wrote: »

JM1 - Directly from the horses mouth (Velodyne).

I guess it all depends on what horse you were talking to. My horse's (two from Velodyne) told me a different story. Sounds like we have conflicting horse stories! Very typical of the audio folks, different folks from the same company & you get two different opinions. I'm not loosing any sleep over it.

dorokusai

It's a Velodyne pissing contest....cool. I love it when ppl talk to ppl.

pearsall001

dorokusai wrote: »

It's a Velodyne pissing contest....cool. I love it when ppl talk to ppl.

Yeah, & my horse can out piss your horse!!! Take that!!!

madmax

Once you hook up your sub a way to figure out if it matches well is seamless integration, or not. It should never draw even the slightest attention to itself but should make the sound very forceful. For example, if someone comes to listen and says "great sounding sub" then you have lost the battle. What should happen is them asking you if you will turn it on.
madmax

RuSsMaN

Chuck, that's what Stu Lumsden at Polk told me at CES when I asked him about 2ch sub integration. In a nutshell as far as setup, keep inching up the gain until you notice the sub, then back it down a couple clicks and you'll be where you should be.

We live in a bass-laden world, partially thanks to electronic instruments (synth, etc), rap music, and home theater - all of which have 'big' bass. I think that's a huge issue today, most people don't know what a properly integrated sub should sound like, and what role the low-bass plays in most music.

Cheers,
Russ

pearsall001

RuSsMaN wrote: »

Chuck, that's what Stu Lumsden at Polk told me at CES when I asked him about 2ch sub integration. In a nutshell as far as setup, keep inching up the gain until you notice the sub, then back it down a couple clicks and you'll be where you should be.

We live in a bass-laden world, partially thanks to electronic instruments (synth, etc), rap music, and home theater - all of which have 'big' bass. I think that's a huge issue today, most people don't know what a properly integrated sub should sound like, and what role the low-bass plays in most music.

Cheers,
Russ

You & madmax really hit the nail on the head. When a good sub is set up so it blends seemlessly with your mains you experience a new level of musical enjoyment in two channel that is just not attainable by a single pair of speakers. It kinda makes you want to smack yourself in the head & ask yourself why the hell I didn't do this sooner.

HT enjoyment is another great venue for a good sub, different than the needs for two channel but just as important.

reeltrouble1

You should get some sattelite's as well, I am told the DSP Enhanced 7 sounds amazing.;)

its a shame I tell you, a damm shame that boy, just say it isn't so Joe (Phil), say it isn't so.:eek:

RT1--owner of full range speakers, subs need not apply.

cfrizz

Welcome to the world of subs with 2 channel music Phil. I have ALWAYS used a sub with my music. And for the brief time I was without it while I was setting up my prepro I really realized what I was missing without it.

There are lower levels in the music that regular speakers just can't pick up that subs can.

reeltrouble1

I am all for having subs as long as they just do what I tell them.:)

RT1

Early B.

pearsall001 wrote: »

Even large froorstanders benefit from a sub, no matter how well they claim to reproduce bass, something they aren't engineered to do.

Yeah, but on the other hand, you get the effect of stereo bass with full range floorstanders, something a single sub can't do.

I like the auto-eq feature on your Velo.

I think you'll benefit from a high pass filter if you're gonna try and integrate a sub in a 2-channel system. If a sub can produce bass better than the mains, then relieve the mains of bass duty and they'll probably sound better. Lowers the burden on the amp, too.

The high pass filter issue is one of the main reasons I haven't actively pursued stereo subs. It gets very expensive to do it right -- I would need good drivers (preferrably 15" passive subs), a decent 2-channel amp, crossover, high pass filter, long ICs, PCs, WAF, and enough space in my room room to for a couple of huge boxes. I'd also want to use the same subs for HT, as well, which means somehow hooking them up to a pre/pro and a 2-channel pre.

amulford

I have some full range speakers, and I have playyed with the idea myself. Well actually I was just...

reeltrouble1

I think you'll make someone a great deal on it when you sell it in the FM.

RT1--subless in brunwsick.

venomclan

RuSsMaN wrote: »

I am Velo man.

Finally a pic of Russ. Not far off from what I had imagined...:)

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

I think you'll make someone a great deal on it when you sell it in the FM.
RT1--subless in brunwsick.

LOL. I call dibs.

Early B.

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

I think you'll make someone a great deal on it when you sell it in the FM.

Nah. Just keep your receipt, Pear, so you can return it within 30 days.;)

I don't care what anyone says, subwoofer drivers belong in big boxes. Subs need air, and small sealed boxes will suffocate a driver, no matter how much power is behind them. The analogy is a drum. A small drum gives off a small sound no matter how hard you whack it; the bigger the drum, the bigger the bass. Small sealed subs are fine for small rooms and certain kinds of music, but if you're gonna get a sub for a nice 2-channel system in a moderate or large room, it ought to be capable of playing loud and digging deep with minimal cone movement and little stress on the amp to keep distortion low.

Now that I'm done bustin' your balls, Pear, I truly hope the Velo exceeds your expectations. Hell, no one can accuse you of being conventional, so make us eat crow.

pearsall001

Early B. wrote: »

Nah. Just keep your receipt, Pear, so you can return it within 30 days.;)

I don't care what anyone says, subwoofer drivers belong in big boxes. Subs need air, and small sealed boxes will suffocate a driver, no matter how much power is behind them. The analogy is a drum. A small drum gives off a small sound no matter how hard you whack it; the bigger the drum, the bigger the bass. Small sealed subs are fine for small rooms and certain kinds of music, but if you're gonna get a sub for a nice 2-channel system in a moderate or large room, it ought to be capable of playing loud and digging deep with minimal cone movement and little stress on the amp to keep distortion low.

Now that I'm done bustin' your balls, Pear, I truly hope the Velo exceeds your expectations. Hell, no one can accuse you of being conventional, so make us eat crow.

Yo Early,

Nothing like a good audio discussion amongst forum buds!! Now as far as floorstanders go, they are a hodge podge of compromises. Midrange, tweeter, bass all fighting over the same air & multiple crossovers mucking things up. But can they sound good...absolutely without a doubt. But can they do better, yep! Once you separate out the bass then the speaker will open up like you wouldn't believe.

It's no secret that quality monitor's are well known for their imaging, soundstaging abilities & their uncany ability to simply disapear. Something a floorstander only dreams about.

What really suprised me was when I saw a pair of JM Labs Grande Utoia Be speakers paired up with a sub. I asked myself, what do these guy know that I don't, gee maybe a sub is important to get the most out of a pair of floorstanders. But then again a lot of guys think they're running full range...psst! not even close!

Early B.

pearsall001 wrote: »

Yo Early,

Nothing like a good audio discussion amongst forum buds!! Now as far as floorstanders go, they are a hodge podge of compromises. Midrange, tweeter, bass all fighting over the same air & multiple crossovers mucking things up. But can they sound good...absolutely without a doubt. But can they do better, yep! Once you separate out the bass then the speaker will open up like you wouldn't believe.

It's no secret that quality monitor's are well known for their imaging, soundstaging abilities & their uncany ability to simply disapear. Something a floorstander only dreams about.

What really suprised me was when I saw a pair of JM Labs Grande Utoia Be speakers paired up with a sub. I asked myself, what do these guy know that I don't, gee maybe a sub is important to get the most out of a pair of floorstanders. But then again a lot of guys think they're running full range...psst! not even close!

Yeah, if I had a choice, I'd have stereo subs with huge floorstanders, no question about it.

The best example that helps make your point is HT. You can have an HT system that consists of seven full range floorstanders and the bass will be OK, but once you add a subwoofer, it takes the listening experience to another level. There's no reason why 2-channel should be any different.

I think you'll get an improvement in sound by adding the Velo, especially if you can fool around with placement options.

engtaz

RuSsMaN wrote: »

I am Velo man.

That's so wrong in so many ways. LOL:eek:

engtaz

pearsall001

cfrizz wrote: »

Welcome to the world of subs with 2 channel music Phil. I have ALWAYS used a sub with my music. And for the brief time I was without it while I was setting up my prepro I really realized what I was missing without it.

There are lower levels in the music that regular speakers just can't pick up that subs can.

Good stuff Cathy!! You pretty much covered it all.