Blu Ray revitalize SACD?
Comments
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And just what is Blu-Ray audio? Is it PCM, DTS or what? Obviously, it's not hi-rez DSD or DVD-A, so is it really a hi-rez format or just another lame try at surround sound?
From a quick search on the net:
DTS-HD MA
DTS-HD Master Audio delivers audio at super high 'variable' bit rates - reaching up to 24.5Mbps on Blu-ray discs and 18.0Mbps on HD-DVD, and constant bit rates starting at 1.5Mbps. These super high bit rates contrast heavily with the maximum of 768kbps supported on standard DVD-video for DTS Digital Surround.
Previously known as DTS++ and DTS-HD, DTS-HD Master Audio supports a virtually unlimited number of surround sound channels though HD-DVD and Blu-ray limit the number of audio channels to eight. Maximum sampling frequency supported by this format is 192kHz at a sampling depth of 24-bits. Further more, it can also down-mix to 5.1- and two-channel for compatibility with existing standard DTS-enabled AV receivers, and can deliver audio quality at bit rates extending from DTS 1.5Mbps core - up to maximum lossless bit rates supported by this format.
Dolby TrueHD
100 percent lossless coding technology.
Up to 18 Mbps bit rate.
Supports more than eight full-range channels of 24-bit/96 kHz audio, though current HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc standards limit maximum number of audio channels to eight.
Uncompressed LPCM
Of course the above formats are based on compressing and then uncompressing the same underlying PCM format found on DVD-A disks. Because of the large space available on blu-ray disks, they sometimes just put the original uncompressed PCM track on the disk. If they start making music only disks, without the video data, they shouldn't have space problems just using the highest quality PCM signal they want to include.
I'm not sure how the PCM of DVD-A compares to DSD on SACD, but I don't really think you can lump the new lossless formats in with the dolby and dts of old. There would seem to be a lot of audiophile potential here when the players reach a critical mass in homes.
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So 24-bit 192kHz is not true hi-rez?
I don't consider it hi-rez, but here's some info to ponder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Audio_CDPolitical Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I don't consider it hi-rez, but here's some info to ponder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Audio_CD
From your article:Because of the nature of sigma-delta converters, one cannot make a direct comparison between DSD and PCM. An approximation is possible, though, and would place DSD in some aspects comparable to a PCM format that has a bit depth of 20 bits and a sampling frequency of 192 kHz. PCM sampled at 24 bits provides a (theoretical) additional 24 dB of dynamic range. Due to the effects of quantization noise, the usable bandwidth of the SACD format is approximately 100 kHz, which is similar to 192 kHz PCM.
And from the DVD-A companion article linked at the bottom:Different bit-rate/sampling rate/channel combinations can be used on a single disc. For instance, a DVD-Audio disc may contain a 96 kHz/24-bit 5.1-channel audio track as well as a 192 kHz/24-bit stereo audio track. Also, the channels of a track can be split into two groups stored at different resolutions. For example, the front speakers could be 96/24, while the surrounds are 48/20.
Audio is stored on the disc in Linear PCM format, which is either uncompressed or losslessly compressed with Meridian Lossless Packing. The maximum permissible total bitrate is 9.6 Megabits per second. Channel/resolution combinations that would exceed this need to be compressed. In uncompressed modes, it is possible to get up to 96/16 or 48/24 in 5.1, and 192/24 in stereo.
It would seem that HD lossless formats on blu-ray can hit the same maximum bit-rate/sampling rates as the old hi-rez audio formats just on 8 channels instead of 2. -
Other factors to consider include,Note that high-resolution PCM (DVD-Audio, HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc) and DSD (SACD) may still differ in terms of fidelity at high-frequencies since DSD, owing to its high sampling frequency, does not show the typical ringing effects of reconstruction filters used with PCM.Conversely, the properties of DSD and the authoring process tend to discourage the kind of extreme compression and unpleasant-sounding hard digital clipping often found on PCM recordings.Many people feel that even a moderately good system should reveal a significant difference between SACD and either CD or DVD-Audio.In addition, SACDs can be authored to be both forward and backward compatible with existing CD players.
EMM Labs latest player upsamples PCM to over 5MHz, about twice the sampling rate of DSD, yet it is said to only approach the sound of SACD.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
As I said before, I'm not sure how DSD would compare to the best that uncompressed LPCM on blu-ray is capable of. I believe we'd have to actually have a recording studio max out its capabilities first and apply our ears to some good 'ol real world testing to make final judgements ourselves.
I also know that there is a debate between the paper theoretical stats and the difference between DSD and PCM. But aside from which one is ultimately better in real world testing, I don't think I've read before that DVD-A is considered a non high-rez audio format. And HD lossless audio on blu-ray meets or exceeds DVD-A's specifications. So it would at least have some good potential usefulness in high-rez audiophile circles. -
EMM Labs latest player upsamples PCM to over 5MHz, about twice the sampling rate of DSD, yet it is said to only approach the sound of SACD.
But it's starting with CD 16-bit 44.1kHz. I am not sure what the point of sounds above 20kHz really is... to me at least, I'm not sure what my dog would think.Conversely, the properties of DSD and the authoring process tend to discourage the kind of extreme compression and unpleasant-sounding hard digital clipping often found on PCM recordings.
I think this is a very good point though
Home Theatre: Epson 5020ub, Elite Screen Sable Frame 100", Onkyo 818, Oppo BDP-103, Tivo Series 3, Xbox 360, Sealed Dual Sound Splinter RL-p 15" DIY sub powered by Behringer EP2500 with FBD, QSC RMX1400 powering LSi15, LSiC, LSiFX sides, and Lsi7 for the back, Technics SL-1200M3D -
I don't see Blu-ray audio replacing SACD because that would mean a completely new promotion effort to educate the masses about yet another hi-rez format. Didn't we already went thru such a process with SACD/DVD-A? Besides, on a worldwide basis, SACD is too entrenched.
Naxos?? It was never really into hi-rez. It never released that many titles on SACD anyway.
I hope you're right. I really don't want to change formats again since I'm quite happy with SACD.
Now, if someone would figure out a way to crack SACD so I can place the songs on my file server and stream it out to my Squeezebox...
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You need to come down to Charleston and I think I might be able to shed some light on what SACD is capable of.
BDT
How's this weekend (3/1) sound? You can appraise my(small) collection of VINYL!:D
And, answer a butt load of questions!I refuse to argue with idiots, because people can't tell the DIFFERENCE!
