Poll: best sub to match LSi series

RuSsMaN

Originally posted by mantis
Ph and F make the same sound am I right or what????Glad to give everyone a laugh at my expense........cool.

Doc,
Technical review???I could go on with a full review...MANTIS style but Technical?Naaa.Quoting spec's is about as technical as I'm gonna go with it.

Big bag AGAIN, specs? What from the manual? I'm guessing not, mosPHet and all. . .

Cheers,
Rooster

Quiz time Dan, which Rel subs are sealed, are which aren't? (just checking, because of the last post on this topic)

mantis

Russ.........o Russ...........your not going mental on me are you???Should I be scared???Silence ring a bell???

Quiz time Dan, which Rel subs are sealed, are which aren't? (just checking, because of the last post on this topic)

OK I will start there...All the sub's we carry of there lines are sealed except one.....the stormIII.But all of the Q series and the Strara is.........all sealed my man...We don't carry the big boys.So do I pass or do you need to get your web pages on????

Big bag AGAIN, specs? What from the manual? I'm guessing not, mosPHet and all. . .

If I quoted from the manual......isn't that what people are looking for?????And something wrong with manuals???Sorry but REL uses mosFet amps.....the strata just so happens to be 100 watts DC-coupled.Is that good?????It looks like I got my F correct? Or did I.Better check that one again.I can quote the spec's word for word if you want me 2.................................Storm is mosFet 2.....damn and DC-coupled.....Imagine that.**** dude the Q series has mosFet as well......what will we do???

The problem is, the storm is actually taller than your typical sub, and somewhat not wife-friendly, and black ash finish definitely not helping. What do you think Dan? I felt that the storm is a bit overkill, next to LSi15. But, they are very musical sub.On SACD materials, it is very apparent that the low end became very defined and punchy

It's up 2 you my man.Wife needs to look at it 2.I'd get the Strata in your color of choice.I'm glad you got 2 HEAR ONE instead of just talking about it like someone else does(Russ).
The Strom is powerfull........I like how you work in the Rotel........funny ****.....your just loving that bad boy huh.......good for you man.Did you happen to check out the Q series while you where there???Smaller and still musical and got balls.

polkatese

Dan,
I skipped the Q cause it looks tiny and weak I wonder if it will pass muster compared to my celestion, beside it just doesn't do it for me (before listening), it's like staring at those klipsch orange drivers (no offense, klipsch diehards...)

what do you think of Mirage sub?

mantis

Mirage sub's are ok at best.No better then Polk sub's.I'm suprised you didn't give a Q series a run..........they are small yes but powerfull,judge it by it's size you did.Powerfull with the bass it is.Smooth like it's brother it will do.

mangata572

All,

I called a dealer asking about Strata vs. Storm. The guy told me in my 22x24 room the Storm would fill the room better than the Strata because it plays twice as loud. Does this sound like a sales pitch for me to spend the extra $$$? This dealer is 2 hrs away, so I want to get the most info I can before going. I'm not a base heavy listener, just looking for a very musical sub. Any thoughts on sealed vs. ported design regardless of brand?

polkatese

mangata572,
it's a good question. I don't know what's the design philosophy around sealed vs. ported. On my celestion (a sealed version) I noticed when I watched heavy content LFE movies (such as LOTR:FOTR) the woofer struggles quite a bit to move the air. Is it to say that on ported sub, the air movement can be channeled better?

Dan, comments please....

HBombToo

I'm not Dan but I think vented should give a 3dB increase from sealed.

just my 2c

HBomb

mangata572

polkatese,
That might be one of the salesman's reasons for trying to send me on the ported Storm III route (might not be just sales BS). I did take a Sunfire MK2 home for a demo (from a diffrent dealer) that is a sealed active/pasive design. So we could add another design type in the mix.

The Sunfire MK2 sounds much better than my polk psw350, but still not a musical as I would like. Thats not to discount the Sunfire, who knows, I might get it for $900 vs. Rel's high $$$.

polkatese

HBomb,
would it fair to say then vented/ported should be relatively better? or just different?

HBombToo

When it comes to the nuances of subs and their ability to be more musical than others I am lost...

For me all I know, from what I have read, is the vented sub can handle more power efficiently without damaging the woofer because of free air flow. The free air flow , "I guess", attributes to the additional power through coupling.

But ****, I'm a rookie and have alot to learn!

HBomb

polkatese

mangata572,
price wise, you should be able to get it at (from the get go, before further negotiation, once you decided), strata: $1150; storm $1600-1750 (black ash tend to be cheaper) if you go with the special order colors (rosenut, walnut, etc) then the discount is more like 10% of retail.....I know one thing, on audiogon, these rel get snapped so fast, is not even funny. I blinked couple times, and these puppys dissapeared. The going rate seems to be strata:$800-900 and storm $1250-1350...that's actually pretty good testament of its quality

there is one stadium II available for a cool $7300 (yep, lots of dough, ain't for me)

polkatese

stadium III available:

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?homesubw&1043018998

mangata572

I think the only way to find the sub that works the best with anyones setup is a in home demo, but how can a person demo all the stuff they are thinking of buying at once, in their home. impossible! That is why I like these forums!

mangata572

Thanks for the pricing info. I guess when it comes to the cash, better to get what you want the first time, rather than continuous upgrading.

NDTA

Let get the priority straight:

if you care about music, get the bidg monsdo Polk PSW1200.

if you care about home theater, movies stuff get the Vedodyne SPL 1200.

if you want the best of both worlds, hook up both, turn on the one you need depend what application.

Now where is the cash???

Dr. Spec

Vented vs. ported? Man you are opening a huge can of worms.

There are DIY subwoofer sites and chat forums that delve pretty deeply into the design of subwoofers. The decision to vent, or go with acoustic suspension, or a passive radiator is based on a bunch of variables, including the characteristics and operating parameters of the specific driver in question, the enclosure volume and its natural tuning point, the desired frequency response (i.e., -3 dB point), and the desired sound pressure levels.

None of it is really rocket science if you take the time to sort through it all, but it is pretty technical.

With that said, usually a subwoofer is vented to achieve a uniform SPL down to lower frequencies than would otherwise be possible with an acoustic suspension design because the woofer would otherwise exceed it's physical excursion limits trying to move that much air alone at the very lowest frequencies.

If you look at the cone excursion plotted against the frequency spectrum, you'll note that with a properly designed vented subwoofer, more air will come from the vent(s) at the lowest frequencies than comes from the woofer itself. The vent "tunes" the enclosure and amplifies what would otherwise be a pretty tepid output from the woofer itself - much like how a flute can be heard in a concert hall with very little effort from the musician.

Then, below the natural tuning point, woofer excursion skyrockets and bottoming can be a real problem without a subsonic filter.

Sound quality? Either design can be made to sound fantastic if the designer knows how to mix and match all variables to achieve the desired results. Sealed subs have a reputation for "tighter" bass but are generally not bottom dwellers. Ported subs have a reputation for SPL and extension possibly at the expense of tightness. Whether or not these reputations are well deserved or even valid is up for discussion.

I do know one thing - when Ron-P gets around to venting his sealed DIY Sono-Sub Tempest - watch out - he will unleash the beast within!

Doc

polkatese

Doc,
thanks for the explanation. I realised that the subject is pretty controversial, no right or wrong answer, but it's part of the education process. Now I am going to get some popcorn and six pack and watch the fireworks....

If you look at the cone excursion plotted against the frequency spectrum, you'll note that with a properly designed vented subwoofer, more air will come from the vent(s) at the lowest frequencies than comes from the woofer itself. The vent "tunes" the enclosure and amplifies what would otherwise be a pretty tepid output from the woofer itself - much like how a flute can be heard in a concert hall with very little effort from the musician.

vented design would logically allow for supplying fresh air to the gasping woofer, during the intake (inhale) movement of the cone while producing the lowest frequencies, right doc? am I missing something here? how do you quantify "tightness"? or is it more of perception and preference? inquiring mind at work....

Dr. Spec

There is nothing really controversial about sealed vs. ported subwoofer design. It's all physics - pure and simple.

All I was alluding to with my comment about these things being up for discussion is that it is certainly possible to poorly design a sealed subwoofer that has sloppy sounding bass, and conversely it is also possible to properly design a vented sub that has extraordinarily tight sounding bass.

What we have each heard (and that is certainly a finite universe) of different brands of subs can certainly color our opinions on these things. That is why I look for independent technical reviews to separate the hype from fact.

Too often I hear "this sub is this, or that" when there is no basis for saying so except specs from the manufacturer or your ears. If you haven't heard all the best subs out there, how can you possibly say with confidence that sub X is unequivocably the best in terms of (insert subjective term here)? I say prove it. If you can hear it, it can be measured and compared to something else and whatever difference you are hearing between brand X and brand Y can be quantified. I'll take 3 pages of charts and graphs anyday over some reviewer who waxes eloquently about warm, nutty, lack of smear, wooly, or any other nebulous terms.

I wish to hell I had the time to demo tons of gear, but truth be told I often rely on the collective opinions of more experienced enthusiasts and I admittedly (with a return policy assurance) have purchased gear without a demo. When enough informed enthusiasts tell me the Polk RT800i is a damn good tower, I tend to believe them. Ditto for the hundreds upon hundreds of overwhelmingly positive comments I have read about SVS products. I bought my 20-39PC+ without a demo and haven't looked back. I don't have to guess this sub is a giant killer in its price class - I KNOW it is based on scads of independent and technically vigorous tests of SVS products. I purchased this sub with great confidence and I wasn't disappointed.

Anyway, no way are you going to get me to start waxing on about vented subwoofer design, or "tightness" (it's related to transient response and group decay). It's way too detailed and I'm nothing of an expert - just an engineer who digs this kind of stuff.

Here is one of the best websites I have found on the subject for the DIY-er:

http://www.carstereo.com/help2/Articles.cfm

Read to your heart's content, oh inquiring one.

Also, "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" by Vance Dickason will pretty much tell you much of the same stuff and I'd bet more than one Club Polk member has a copy. Get it at Amazon.com.

Regards,

Doc

polkatese

Doc,
thanks for the explanations, I can tell that you are an engineer, I was one.....you are right on in all points, for me, at the end of the day, I am not looking for a perfect system, because I know it's all about what I can afford. We can talk all day about the best system one can have, but I don't have tons of dough to play with, hence I am relying on the experience of folks in this forum to lead me to a directionally sound path.....

Now, on to the thread subject, I have spent several days now, doing auditioned to several outstanding subs out there. I was hoping that I can audition JM Lab per Russ suggestion, but no luck. Can't find anybody that carry the product within a reasonable driving distance (especially not in this Santa Ana wind creating major havoc for the past several days, anyway). So, last night took the mrs to tweeter (after all, she is the real deal decision maker for me). We reaudition the REL strata and storm, this time I brought in my DVD-A big phat band as the reference (since I spent many many hours listening to the details of this dvd, and for auditioning speakers, it's the best one...I love the sound of brass, horn sections, and grand piano). We spend about an hour going back and forth between two surround rooms at tweeter, since these two sub-bass were located separately). At the end of the audition, she was clearly impressed with the storm more than the strata (even though the strata was paired with Sonus Faber GP, that is sooooooooo detailed and clean). I negotiated an awesome deal with tweeter on the price, and we left agreeing that we made the right decision). I had hooked them up last night, today is tweaking time for me.
First impressions, It's an awesome badass sub-bass. I am in musical nirvana right now (even as I am typing this, I set the gain at 12 o'clock for both, music and lfe). It extends the low end of the LSi15 like you won't believe. It sounds like they are made for each other, no overwhelming boom, it extends the frequencies for the whole spectrum. Yes, it does the most impact on the low end, but the mid range is also improved quite a bit (perception or fact I am not sure, but my ears are delighted.....)
Dan, kudos to you for directing me in this direction! you are da man! next time you are in town, call me, I owe you a dinner....
I'll post some more after I calibrate the beast some more....

cheers,
polkadance....

mantis

Dude,
I'm not the man..........your the man.dude your system is coming along so good..I'm so happy for yeah.Dude your system is becoming a carbonm copy of mine.

So You got the big Storm........dude that sub is so nice man.Now you got a idea why I love em so much.........as usual,I'm now all juiced up...............happy for yeah,
Dan

polkatese

Dan,
don't be modest, got to take the credits. For one, I don't even know what REL is all about, if you didn't mention it, second, I thought subwoofer is subwoofer, period, and I know I am not about to upgrade my celestion for another floor thumping boom box, and I've been proved wrong...there's subwoofer and then there is sub-bass. And that is what I need. Speaking of which, is anybody selling the neutrix cable upgrade? I thought this cable look flimsy, especially for passing through the whole spectrum of frequencies, or does it make any difference for its intended purpose?

cheers, fh

mantis

polkatese,
thank you.The cable remember it only has to pass a limited bandwith,it's protected from outside noise due to the balanced design.If I where you I'd set that preamp at 40hz.Give the sub some time to break in.........it gets better